The Manosphere Report

0:00A lot of people think emotional regulation is getting rid of a feeling.

0:03It's not what it is.

0:04It's just having another relationship to it.

0:07I've had anxiety or lived with it for a lot of my life, but sometimes

0:12I just say hello to it.

0:13It's like, hey, how you doing today?

0:15And it goes away pretty quickly, or it just sits there.

0:19I think that's the other thing about emotional regulation that people kind of misunderstand.

0:22They think it's like, I've got to check in with who I'm feeling all day

0:24long and then regulate, check and regulate.

0:26Like, you'd become psychotic if you did that all day long.

0:29Most of the time, our emotions are in the background.

0:32You know, like, if you thought about your feelings all day long, you wouldn't be

0:35able to do this podcast.

0:36Like, that's unproductive. Emotions matter when there's a shift in our environment or the relationships.

0:42You know, if you said something that offended me, boom, I'm activated.

0:46I'm feeling angry or kind of shocked.

0:49Then I have to make a choice in that moment.

0:51Like, how do I manage it?

0:52That's where the magic happens.

0:54Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science -based tools for

0:59everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford

1:08School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr.

1:11Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett is a professor of psychology at Yale University, where he

1:15is also the director of Yale's Center for Emotional Intelligence.

1:19He is an expert in the science of emotions and how to apply that to

1:22improve communication and relationships and performance in school and work.

1:27One common problem around discussions of emotions and emotional intelligence is that they are often

1:32vague and, frankly, somewhat soft and cliche.

1:35But not when Mark Brackett explains emotional intelligence, as he does today, because he talks

1:40about the practical tools that emerge from the science of emotional intelligence that you can

1:44use to improve your emotional life, both with yourself and with others.

1:49And he's not just going to tell us to feel our emotions more deeply.

1:52While that could be important in certain settings, his research in and out of the

1:56laboratory is really focused on the small things that we can all do, both in

2:00moments of emotion, but also on our own, that can greatly increase our ability to

2:05understand what we're feeling, communicate it effectively, and to be better listeners, especially in moments

2:11that would otherwise create tension or confusion.

2:14In fact, what he shares today are life skills, the sort of life skills that

2:17make everything, school, friendships, romantic relationships, professional life, and family life far more effective and

2:24enriching. So I'm confident that you'll come away from today's episode with Mark Brackett knowing

2:28what to do and when to use the tools that you'll learn, and they are

2:32indeed very powerful to improve your life.

2:35Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching

2:39and research roles at Stanford.

2:40It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero -cost -to -consumer

2:44information about science and science -related tools to the general public.

2:47In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

2:51And now for my discussion with Dr.

2:53Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome.

2:57Thank you. Glad to be back.

2:58So much to discuss today about emotion regulation, about the kids, the future.

3:05Are the kids all right?

3:07They could be better. And our obligation, our generation, other generations, and providing a world

3:16where kids can thrive and where everyone can thrive, it's a bit of a mess

3:21out there, but you're going to put some clarification on things for people.

3:24You're doing amazing work to give people tools for emotion regulation and more.

3:28So let's start off and define emotion regulation.

3:31What is that? Yeah. Well, I think the simplest way to define it is using

3:38your emotions wisely to achieve your goals in life.

3:41It's a little too broad.

3:43And so it's funny. As I was writing my book, I decided I need a

3:46formula. And so my formula is ER, which is emotion regulation, is a set of

3:53goals and strategies. So it's ER parentheses G plus S.

3:58And that equals a function of E plus P plus C.

4:03You know, it made me feel smart.

4:06Emotion, person, context. So what I mean by that specifically is that it's a goal

4:13-oriented process. You have to want to regulate.

4:16You can prevent unwanted emotions.

4:18I have an acronym for that too.

4:20It's PRIME. You can prevent unwanted emotions.

4:22You can reduce the difficult ones.

4:25I think people forget the I initiate emotions.

4:27Like when you're teaching or leading or presenting, like you want to create an emotion

4:31in the room that's up -regulating.

4:34You can maintain an emotion.

4:35Like, you know what? I'm having a good day.

4:37I'm going to avoid these things, so just keep it going.

4:40Savor the moment. And then there's enhancing, which is kind of boosting an emotion.

4:44So that's PRIME. That's the goals.

4:46The strategies we can talk about for hours.

4:50We'll get into that a little bit later.

4:52And then I think what most people misunderstand is that, like, what we regulate are

4:58emotions. And, like, what I do, for example, to deal with my anxiety is really

5:04different than my anger, than my worry or other emotions, in that it's a function

5:11of the emotion you're feeling.

5:13It's a function of me as an individual.

5:15You know, I am on the neurotic side.

5:19I'm on the introverted side.

5:21And so my strategy selection would be...

5:25influenced by that. And then the context, like right here, right now, like I know

5:28you're into fitness and like running and, you know, all this kind of stuff.

5:31And I'm like, Andrew, I'm really nervous right now.

5:34Like, do you mind if we take a break and I go for a run?

5:37I feel like, you know, it's a little weird, Mark.

5:39So context matters. You've got to, like right now, if I were anxious, it's like,

5:43Mark, you got to use some cognitive strategies or breathing work.

5:46I can't go anywhere, so I'm stuck.

5:48And I think people need to see that kind of full spectrum.

5:52I feel like there's a close tie between emotion regulation and self -awareness.

5:57Yeah. But I feel like there's a tension between self -awareness and being able to

6:03experience and enjoy life. For instance, if I'm feeling anxious, I'm thinking about how I'm

6:11appearing, how I'm sounding, that it's uncomfortable.

6:14But if I get totally outside of that and just be in the experience that

6:19I'm in, then there's the potential to say the wrong thing or, you know, offend

6:26somebody or who knows. So when we talk about emotion regulation, what's the best approach

6:32to that that doesn't keep us in a subtext in our mind and sort of

6:36out of the room? Because when we're alone, it's quite a bit different.

6:40We can breathe. We can use whatever self -regulation tools we want.

6:44Or ruminate. Or ruminate or write or text or call a friend, whatever it is.

6:49But when we're at work, at school, on a podcast, if there's that subtext, like,

6:54I'm not locked in here.

6:56I'm not in the experience completely.

6:58I'm self -regulating or paying attention to myself.

7:01That can be very uncomfortable in its own right.

7:03It's work. Yeah. It's effortful.

7:06And not always the best effort if it's going down the rabbit hole.

7:10I think that you're getting at, which is this mindset piece, that the first step

7:17is our mindset about our feelings.

7:19So let me ask you, what's your mindset around anxiety?

7:23Hmm. Um, I, well, I have assumptions around it.

7:29I was telling someone the other day because I spent a lot of time alone

7:32and I'm fairly introverted, but if I go into a crowded environment for the first

7:37five, six minutes, I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed.

7:40Like, well, it was really crowded in here.

7:42There are a lot of people.

7:43And I, I actually feel like I have a bit of a, uh, social interaction

7:46disorder for those first few minutes.

7:49But then after about 20, 30 minutes, I'm in that experience and I feel like

7:54I'm very comfortable. So I have this mindset that social anxiety is something that, um,

8:01is like wading into water.

8:03It's always a little bit too cold at first, or usually it's a little too

8:06cold, but over time you acclimate.

8:08All right. You didn't answer the question.

8:10Okay. So I'm going to frame it another way.

8:13What's your relationship to anxiety?

8:15I hate it. Okay. There you go.

8:17See how you automatically like, I hate anxiety.

8:20I did too for most of my life.

8:23And then I was with a friend who is a neuroscientist about anxiety.

8:28And she said to me, Mark, tell me all the things that make you anxious.

8:32I said, well, I'm anxious about fundraising and, you know, I got to raise the

8:36money to keep the research going.

8:37I'm anxious to make sure, I want to make sure that like everything we do

8:41is high quality. And I went on and on.

8:43And then she asked me another question.

8:45She said, well, what do those have in common?

8:49I'm like, what are you talking about?

8:51And then I thought about it and I said, well, those are things that are

8:55important to me. And so she said, so why would anxiety be a bad thing?

9:01And I think that we have to learn how to adopt a mindset around emotions

9:06that there are no bad emotions.

9:07It's what we do with our emotions that makes them harmful or difficult for us

9:11to live our lives. But anxiety is a good thing.

9:15It's saying there's perceived uncertainty around the future.

9:17Like I'm anxious about how I'm going to act in this environment or how I'm

9:21going to be perceived as an environment.

9:22It's not a bad thing because you want to be perceived well.

9:26But if you automatically assume it's bad, then it's going to put you on the

9:31path to dysregulation. So if we accept the idea that all emotions are okay, but

9:40that the expression of all emotions is in every context is not okay, that it

9:46should be context specific. I actually think that provides some freedom.

9:50I can feel that freedom.

9:52Like it's okay to be super angry.

9:53It's okay to be frustrated.

9:55It's okay to be anxious.

9:57But how that's expressed is what's critical.

10:01It makes good intuitive sense.

10:03I think that what's hard to know is what to do with the emotion if

10:09there is no outward expression of it.

10:11Like where should it go?

10:14Well, it doesn't have to go anywhere sometimes.

10:16Sometimes it can just be.

10:17And that's a big part of a regulation, which is that a lot of people

10:20think emotion regulation is getting rid of a feeling.

10:24It's not what it is.

10:25It's just having another relationship to it.

10:28Like I've been, I'm 56.

10:31I've had anxiety or live with it for a lot of my life.

10:34But sometimes I just say hello to it.

10:37It's like, hey, how are you doing today?

10:39And it goes away pretty quickly.

10:41Or it just sits there.

10:42I think that's the other thing about emotion regulation that people kind of misunderstand.

10:46They think it's like, I got to check in with who I'm feeling all day

10:48long and then regulate, check and regulate.

10:50Like you become psychotic. did that all day long.

10:53Most of the time, our emotions are in the background.

10:56If you thought about your feelings all day long, you wouldn't be able to do

10:59this podcast. That's unproductive. Emotions matter when there's a shift in our environment or the

11:05relationships. If you said something that offended me, boom, I'm activated.

11:10I'm feeling angry or kind of shocked.

11:13Then I have to make a choice in that moment.

11:15How do I manage it?

11:16That's where the magic happens.

11:18But on a day -to -day basis, thank God we wouldn't want to do that.

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13:53I'd love to poke at some of the assumptions that I know I have, but

13:57I wonder if other people have as well.

13:59My dad's from South America and I remember long ago he said because he went

14:03to formal schools, he said that he was raised with this terrible idea, he called

14:09it terrible, that if somebody was happy and they smiled a lot, that they were

14:14stupid. And I said, what is that about?

14:16And he said, well, that came, in his words, from the British school system where

14:20the idea was that you were supposed to be skeptical of things.

14:24And that if you were happy or happy -go -loving, you weren't lucky and you

14:28weren't drinking, that people would assume that you were an idiot because you weren't bothered

14:34by the problems in the world and you were accepting of the things that you

14:39heard and were told. In other words, you're an idiot.

14:42And my dad's a very happy person now.

14:45And he has talked about, you know, having to break that mold, that like, it's

14:50okay to wake up and take a walk and be happy, that it's okay to

14:54be happy. And so that's just one thing that I think I grew up thinking

14:58too, and maybe not to that extreme, that if, especially in academia, like if you're

15:02not just, like to be happy is to not be discerning.

15:05It's totally false, right? Of course.

15:08Now we're a long way from England right now.

15:11And that's probably something more of my dad's generation than mine.

15:14But I think the idea nowadays does seem to be that if you're happy -go

15:21-lucky and you're feeling good, that you must not be thinking about all the terrible

15:25things going on in the world or that it's insensitive to those that are suffering,

15:30et cetera, et cetera. I'd love your thoughts on this, this idea that we don't

15:34give ourselves permission to feel as good as we might feel because of some social

15:39pressure or assumptions that we've internalized.

15:42Which is all learned. And so these are learned phenomenon.

15:46And it's sometimes outside influence.

15:50So talk about happiness. You know, as I was writing and I was doing the

15:55chapter on mindsets around emotion and talking about this relationship with different emotions.

16:00And, you know, we could play around with this all day long.

16:02I could say, what's your relationship to anger?

16:04What's your relationship to happiness and contentment?

16:06And all of a sudden you start realizing, wow, I have a complicated relationship with

16:10my emotions. And I was thinking about it with happiness too.

16:14And for me, what's interesting, which is different completely from your dad's is because.

16:19Because of my kind of tough childhood and a lot of bullying, is that I

16:24would go to school one day and I would be happy, and I'd see the

16:27bullies, and all of a sudden they'd say things like, you know, what are you

16:30so happy about today, bracket?

16:33And I didn't realize that until I was writing, and then I would get on

16:37stage and give a, I'd do a lot of public speaking, and I'd be standing

16:41there like feeling really good with my speaking, and then I'd get the applause at

16:46the end, and I would start kind of looking down, and I started realizing I'm

16:51uncomfortable being happy. Like, I'm waiting for something to go wrong, because, you know, in

16:59my childhood, like, happy meant, like, you know, we're going to bring you down.

17:03We all have these kind of developmental connections, for lack of a better term, to

17:09our different emotions, and I think that it gets back to the phenomenon.

17:15There's no good or bad emotions.

17:17Life, firstly, some of it is genetic and biological, you know, our proclivity to experience

17:22certain emotions. The regulation piece is all learned.

17:26Like, you're not born with a, you know, a pocket full of evidence -based strategies

17:30to regulate. It's just like, like, you know.

17:34I don't know about you growing up.

17:35You know, my father was very different.

17:38My father was the angry guy, and he'd say, son, you've got to toughen up.

17:42I'm like, dad, look at me.

17:43You know, come on, let's move on.

17:44It's not happening. And you know that I have a fifth -degree black, but I

17:47became the tough guy that my father wanted me to be.

17:49But nevertheless, you know, what does that even mean?

17:54But, you know, growing up, when I was struggling, my parents missed a lot of

17:57the cues, come down the stairs.

17:59I didn't have my father say, son, I'm noticing a shift in your emotions today.

18:03Your posture is different. Your facial expression is different.

18:06Let me give you a research -based strategy to help you regulate your anxiety, stress,

18:09pressure, or fear. No. It was just, there was no, it wasn't even a construct.

18:15I mean, I don't know, but did you grow up with a concept of emotion

18:20regulation? Definitely. You did. It's awesome.

18:23And there was a big gender split.

18:25In my home, I had the sort of belief, based on the context, that women

18:32could express their emotions big or small, and that men weren't supposed to lose their

18:39temper. Men weren't supposed to be angry.

18:43That's interesting. Yeah. It's kind of counter the way people think about it nowadays, right?

18:47Oh, yeah. The men are like, the more power you have, the more anger you

18:50can express. Oh, the complete opposite of that.

18:52In fact, and I don't think he'll mind.

18:54My dad's been on this podcast, and we have a great relationship now.

18:58And we've done work, and it's been awesome.

19:00I mean, it's really, it really has, I mean, and I remember when I was

19:04a kid, if he got angry, he would blink.

19:07And now I know that as like behavioral suppression, you know, he was like blinking.

19:11But I can't ever remember my dad having an outburst, ever.

19:16So I just internalized this idea, like, okay, you don't have outbursts.

19:20But I have a certain side of my family that, my extended family that's from

19:25New Jersey. And where words are sometimes used as weapons.

19:30Okay. And anger is a bit more outward sometimes, at least in that side.

19:35And then I have a South American side where things are more, you know, formal

19:39and boxed away. And I think I internalized a bit of both.

19:43And so I have all sorts of constructs around who's allowed to express emotions and

19:49what extremes. But, you know, I didn't observe a lot of anger.

19:54Or maybe a little suppression.

19:56Lots of suppression. Lots of suppression.

19:58Which is regulation. It's just not the adaptive kind usually.

20:03Right. Right. And, you know, I probably averaged the two, you know, in my own

20:07life. But in terms of happiness, I think the same thing now that I think

20:11about it. That it's okay for women to be fully expressive and for men to

20:18be, you know, it's a bit more of the, you know, it's kind of the

20:211950s model. That was very present in my home and in my mind.

20:25In my mind. Yeah. Yeah.

20:27I can think with happiness, as with any emotion, it's about the time and the

20:34place for happiness. Like you can't, we have research that shows that people who strive

20:39to be happy all the time actually are more miserable.

20:43Because it's hard to live up to that all the time.

20:46You know, people who strive for more contentment in their life actually seem to have

20:50greater well -being. And so I just think, again, it goes back to these mindsets

20:55around emotions, that there's no good or bad emotion.

21:00Anger is fine. Obviously, if it's too intense and it's lasting too long, it's probably

21:05not going to be good.

21:06Happiness is something that we should, you know, experience.

21:09But, you know, if we're attached to it, it's going to be problematic because every

21:13day is not a sunny day.

21:14There are rainy days too.

21:15And you've got to be comfortable with the rainy days.

21:19And the important thing also is not just our feelings about our feelings.

21:24It's also about our mindsets around our capacity to deal with those feelings.

21:29Like, do I believe I am capable of managing my anger?

21:33Do I believe I'm capable of dealing with the disappointment?

21:36And we find a distribution of scores for that too.

21:39Like, going back to my dad, we have very different fathers.

21:43My father would say things like, son, this is the way I deal with my

21:45anger. You're going to have to get used to it.

21:47You know, I would say now, like, sounds like you've got a fixed mindset, Dad.

21:52Like, there are other options, you know, to deal with your anger.

21:56But he was sort of like, this is the way I am.

21:58You're going to have to deal with it.

21:59No learning interests. Whereas nowadays, I hope to help people see, wait a minute, is

22:06that emotion working for you in your relationships or not?

22:08If it's not, there are alternatives.

22:13I mean, we're talking about boys and men quite a bit already here.

22:17So maybe we just continue in that direction, even though we will touch on girls

22:22and women and emotions as it relates to them, too.

22:27I hear a lot nowadays about problems for boys and young men in emotion regulation,

22:35in defining masculinity. I'm obviously interested in this, but I also acknowledge that I'm Gen

22:41X. I was born in 1975.

22:43Things were very different. And I know I have a giant blind spot to their

22:48experience, right? I just do.

22:50I acknowledge that because I don't really have a finger on the pulse of what

22:56life is like for a 15 -year -old or 12 -year -old or 20 -year

23:00-old guy out there. What are the pain points and what's going right?

23:05Yeah, there's a lot going on.

23:07And I think probably the big issue here with gender is vulnerability.

23:15Historically, this is not just now.

23:17This is going back to when we were kids, when our parents were kids, you

23:20know, go back to other periods in time, is that vulnerability, especially for men, is

23:30weak. You've got to be tough.

23:31You're the person who has to make the ends meet.

23:36You're the hunter -gatherer. And obviously times have changed.

23:41And what we find is that the thought today for many boys and men to

23:48be emotional, firstly, emotional alone has a connotation of feminine and out of control.

23:55That's just the way people think about it.

23:57Still? Yes. Really? When you say, don't be so emotional, it's considered to be a

24:03negative thing, it's considered to be feminine, and it's considered to be like a hysterical.

24:09That's why we like to call it emotion skills, not emotional skills.

24:14Anyway, so vulnerability is a big piece of it.

24:18This is going to be a great conversation between two guys.

24:21So what's your relationship to vulnerability?

24:25Totally context -dependent. I mean, there are people I'm not afraid at all to cry

24:31in front of. There are contexts and people that I would never cry.

24:36I mean, I've cried on very public podcasts, two, maybe three.

24:40One here, when Martha Beck came on, she really, she wasn't trying, but it was

24:46happening. And then on Stephen Bartlett's podcast, I think perhaps on another, and it was

24:51tough. I mean, I didn't want to watch those clips, but I'm glad I did

24:56it. So totally context -dependent.

25:00Yeah, and that makes sense.

25:01What I'm really pushing for is like around emotion and about talking about feelings.

25:08And so what we find is that boys generally feel more inhibited just saying how

25:14they feel, especially when it comes to kind of the sad, disappointment, you know, ashamed

25:20emotions. It's much easier to express the anger, you know, and the outwardly expressive emotions,

25:25but the deep ones that are self -conscious, you know, that make you vulnerable tends

25:31to be tough. And the question is, why is that the case?

25:35What are your hypotheses? Why would it be that so many boys feel like they're

25:40going to be perceived as feminine if they say they're disappointed or sad or ashamed?

25:47What immediately comes to mind is that somehow it is linked with the word incapable

25:55or incapability. Exactly. There's an incredible video of David Goggins breaking down crying on stage,

26:04and he was celebrated for that.

26:08But David Goggins did a lot of things beforehand, and no one denies his capability,

26:14his ability. So when he cried, it was like, awesome, he's willing to go to

26:20this really hard place, yet another difficult thing that David can do that most people

26:24can't do. And you just go, like, awesome, and he's owning it.

26:29And I stepped back from that and realized, but we already knew former Navy SEAL

26:34went from 300 plus pounds to this fit individual, you know, Goggins.

26:40He's a verb, an adjective, and a pronoun, right?

26:45So it's like, shit, you know, if someone else just breaks down on stage, you

26:51go, okay, like, I hope this guy can make it in life.

26:55That's the narrative. Exactly. It's like weak.

26:58You worry sometimes for people like that.

27:00I don't worry about David Goggins.

27:02Because he's a superstar, and we have a different mindset around him again.

27:05And so he has the permission to do whatever the hell he wants.

27:09Yeah, that permission thing, forgive me, but this notion of earned the right, I mean,

27:14there are... People like James Cameron who wrote all these movies and was famous for

27:17doing all these super difficult things and then a few years back was claiming that

27:21testosterone poisoned men and that his testosterone was the worst thing.

27:26And everyone that liked his movies said, hey, listen, easy for you to say now,

27:31you built that career on some of that.

27:35So it wasn't, in my opinion, taken that seriously.

27:38He may not like it if he hears this, but I'm like, pfft.

27:41It's like when our colleagues are like, oh, I'm no longer gonna publish in Nature

27:44and Science. I'm gonna go to these open source journals.

27:48He got in the National Academy on Nature and Science papers.

27:51So you're not kidding anybody.

27:53Well, you're making an important point, which is that once you, I always find it

27:59interesting with celebrities, once they become super famous, I can now disclose I've been depressed

28:07or I've been anxious or I've been overwhelmed.

28:09But for some reason, they didn't want to take their risk when they were younger

28:12in their careers because again, the perception is like, oh, anxiety, depression, whatever it is,

28:18that's weak. And so that's the point.

28:22The point is, is that we raise kids, boys in particular, to believe that these

28:30feminine type emotions, which are not feminine by nature, they're just human emotions, are weak.

28:35And therefore, that means I'm gonna be perceived as not only weak, but potentially homosexual.

28:42And that's also a stigma.

28:43And so what do I do?

28:45I suppress. I deny. I ignore.

28:48Interestingly enough, for women, what the research shows is that much less likely to suppress

28:54or deny, much more likely to ruminate.

28:57A couple of things. Yeah.

28:59First of all, I feel like, and I could be wrong, but I feel like

29:01the stereotype of gay men being feminine has fallen away somewhat.

29:09You know, I grew up, you know, in the skateboarding community.

29:13There's Bryan Anderson. He has a big expose in the, not expose where they exposed

29:17him, where he voluntarily, you know, came out in the New York Times.

29:20He's like, he's one of the most aggressive, you know, you know, skateboarders out there,

29:25aggressive in the skateboarding, right?

29:27So he's a big dude, you know?

29:28So I feel like that stereotype has kind of shifted a bit where people assume

29:33that there's a range. I think that you're ambitious there.

29:37Hmm. I think you're right.

29:39I mean, we know. So being gay is still sissy.

29:42Yeah, for sure. Okay. I mean, if you ask a hundred people to run like

29:52a gay man. They're still caught in the Revenge of the Nerds.

29:55Yeah. They're gonna show you someone who's, you know, more feminine or, you know, kind

30:01of stereotypically feminine, to be honest with you.

30:03So while we know, I mean, certainly I remember when I was 18, I went

30:10to a gay bar and I grew up in New Jersey.

30:13It was very homophobic. The only gay person I really knew was my mother's hairdresser,

30:18who was very flamboyant. And then I went to this gay bar and I was

30:22like, oh my God, it's like Wall Street executives here.

30:25You know, there's football players out there.

30:27It was a total, you know, shift in my perception.

30:32Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of people, it's still considered to be, you know,

30:38the mindset is feminine. Got it.

30:41Yeah, I guess if you grew up training in gyms, which I did, you're around

30:46a lot of like very strong, physically strong gay men.

30:52Yeah. They were kind of early to the gym culture, you know, so maybe my

30:57lens on that is a little distorted.

30:59There's something interesting around this notion of sissy showing emotion and boys.

31:10Yeah. And earlier we were talking about the movie Stand By Me, a movie I

31:13absolutely love. I think it's just like a perfect story.

31:15It's a Stephen King story, right, turned into a movie.

31:18I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie.

31:20Yeah. And what's interesting about that movie is the transition that happens right around puberty

31:27and between junior, it's right before junior high school or, oh, it's between junior high

31:31and high school. I can't remember.

31:32Some transition and the kids are at different developmental stages.

31:35I feel like this is a big part of it where like let's say a

31:38kid is a little bit more emotional, a little more coddled at home perhaps.

31:45This is, I'm making a lot of assumptions here.

31:47Yeah. And cries in front of a group of boys when you're in the seventh

31:51or eighth grade. Some of those boys are, because of their stage of maturation, they're

31:58not really little kids anymore.

31:59They're like, dude, what are you doing?

32:01Yeah. And then you've mixed all those kids together and because of the way that

32:06schools and social dynamics are, that can stay with a kid for a long time.

32:11Like being sort of having an emotional expression, that can stick with you for like

32:16two, three years of school, right?

32:18Of course. So I feel like some of this stuff comes about that way, which

32:21is very different than like in a just, I guess like a hypothetical scenario, like

32:28an adult male in the business place.

32:31Maybe he's new at, you know, where there's things tend to equalize a bit in

32:36terms of maturational stage. And so these are two different things, boys crying versus young

32:41men crying. So I'm not sure.

32:42I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

32:42It says, quote -unquote, grown men cry.

32:45Again, this is all nurture.

32:49So if you go to schools that do our work, I just interviewed a bunch

32:53of teenage boys, actually, it'd blow your mind.

32:56They have a whole different perception of emotion.

32:59I ask them these questions about men and boys, and their responses are like, huh?

33:06Like, what's wrong with crying?

33:08Like, if you feel like crying, you cry.

33:11Like, are you sure? No ridicule.

33:14No ridicule. I said, well, what if you get into a fight?

33:18Can you, like, talk to the kid about what happened and, like, tell them how

33:22you felt when they left you out?

33:23And they're like, of course.

33:26That's how we grew up.

33:28But they grew up in a school that took emotion seriously.

33:31They gave them the skills and the resources to do it.

33:34It reminds me, actually, I'll never forget this, you know, since we're on this topic

33:38of boys and men. I was, in the beginning of my career, doing training in

33:43emotional regulation in London, outside of London, a very kind of rough and tough neighborhood.

33:50And the headmistress, as they call it back then, of the school, she looked at

33:55me, and she's like, you know something, Mork?

33:57This program's going to turn the boys into homosexuals.

33:59I'm like, okay, like, where'd that come from?

34:02You know, like, I'm thinking to myself, like, you need a lot more training than

34:05just emotional intelligence, but I'll put that aside for a minute.

34:09Anyhow, I said, you know, I'm here.

34:12So can we just go and do it?

34:14Let me demonstrate it. Not a problem.

34:17We go, like a fishbowl.

34:18Here I am, like, the teacher in the middle of the room.

34:20I have, like, 25 teachers around me and, like, 20 kids in the middle.

34:24And I start sharing a story about my life, whatever it was that was about

34:29probably feeling discouraged. I think it was when I first got into the martial arts,

34:33you know, it was tough.

34:34I was not a tough boy, and I was afraid of my shadow and I

34:39had all this bullying and abuse and, you know, going to a karate studio.

34:43It was a big shock for me.

34:45I happened to have an amazing teacher who transformed my life and became a career

34:49of mine in martial arts.

34:52Anyhow, I told a story about that, about how I failed my yellow belt and

34:56I just hated myself. And, like, not only was I bullied, but I couldn't even

34:59get a freaking yellow belt, discouraged, hopeless.

35:03And everybody's looking at me like, where's this going?

35:06The teachers. The kids were, like, glued.

35:08They loved hearing the story.

35:10And then I said, I'm just curious.

35:15Has anyone else ever felt the way I felt?

35:19And I said, just raise your hand if you've had that kind of feeling.

35:22Every freaking kid in the classroom raised their hand.

35:25And, of course, I look over at that headmistress and I'm like, you know, let's

35:29talk later. Kids are dying to express their emotions, boys and girls.

35:34We've just socialized it. And the socialization piece is really important because even the way

35:40fathers talk to their boy children, you know, is different.

35:46You know, it's the toughen up.

35:48It's da -da -da. These more feeling words, but they're with girls than with boys.

35:51We're not born that way.

35:53We're socialized into, you know, having these complicated relationships with certain emotions.

36:00But it's not something that can't be modified with good instruction.

36:08You're saying this, I'm realizing I internalized so many things that skew my perspective on

36:14this. I guess I should say I'm relieved to hear that expression of emotions among

36:19boys is more accepted now.

36:21I think that's... The generation that's going through this work, the kids who are growing

36:24up in places that are not taking emotions seriously, are growing up in a more,

36:29are with a more stereotypical way of viewing it.

36:32It's got to be infused into your life.

36:33You've got to have these conversations.

36:34You've got to be in situations where, like in our work, just to give you

36:37an example, like we're really rigorous about teaching this stuff.

36:41This isn't just sort of like kumbaya sitting in a circle.

36:43This is like, all right, everyone, we've got a problem here.

36:47There's, you know, the Gaga pit, which is in these, you know, this thing in

36:51schools. You know, there's a kid who nobody is, you know, allowing to participate.

36:56That kid feels awful. What's her obligation?

37:00What are we supposed to do to handle that?

37:01Imagine you're that kid. Imagine you're the one that nobody wants to be, you know,

37:06part of the game. Now we're going to get into groups and we're going to

37:09think about, A, what are the feelings?

37:10B, what are the solutions?

37:12What do you do for yourself?

37:13What do you do for the other people?

37:13And it's like rigorous conversations around the techniques and they got to role play it.

37:18And then we ask questions about the role play.

37:20It's like, well, what if it goes wrong?

37:22What happens if you say this?

37:23And they say, go blank yourself.

37:24What do you do then?

37:26And that's the kind of complex, you know, muscle building we're giving kids in terms

37:31of dealing with emotions. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly

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38:57There is a hardwired bias towards rough and tumble play in males of all species,

39:04including ours. I think what you're talking about a little bit is a capacity also

39:09for kind of rough and tumble, verbal and emotional exchange, which is not necessarily like

39:16F you and this and that.

39:17But some of that can be ingest.

39:20Some of it can be really damaging.

39:22There's something interesting that I learned a long time ago.

39:26Even in academia, he's now dead, but there was a very famous neuroscientist, I'll never

39:31forget, I went to my first McKnight meeting, I was so like excited to be

39:35there and he came over, he was, you know, he's a pretty large guy and

39:39he grabbed me, I grabbed me and he goes, so where are you, I was

39:43picking between laboratories, between this place and that place.

39:45He goes, where's it's gonna, where's it gonna be?

39:47And then he kind of gave me his advice.

39:48And then, and that was a very comfortable exchange for me, because like I grew

39:51up with a lot of physical interaction.

39:53Usually guys not putting their arm around me and like, tell me like, so what's

39:56it gonna be kind of thing.

39:57But oftentimes, you know, if I interact with somebody that's kind of like an old

40:03friend or something, there's, they'll grab my shoulder, you know, just walking by.

40:07There's a lot of just kind of physical interaction that just happens.

40:11It certainly doesn't feel weird or aversive.

40:14And I could see if somebody, for instance, was not used to like just a

40:19lot of physical interaction with other people, that that could feel like a lot.

40:24And so I'm wondering nowadays, where, where are things with respect to sort of just

40:29the amount of physical interaction between kids?

40:33Are they like just feeling and voicing their emotions, but they're like at a physical

40:38distance? Or are they, you know, seeing one another and like handshakes and hugs, what's

40:43up? And, you know, or like, you know, just friendly, the kind of physical banter.

40:48I think it's cultural. It's, there's a lot of, there's a lot going on there

40:51in terms of, you know, the type of school and, you know, where it is

40:55in the United States or in the world, you know, touch is a, is a

40:59cultural thing. But I think, you know, what I want to say about what you

41:04said is that rough and tumble is fine.

41:08Of course, you know, rough and tumble, but there's, when it becomes a power over,

41:14that's when it becomes a problem.

41:15When you have no concern for the emotional life of the other, this is where.

41:21Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The dialogue that sort of establishes hierarchy, I guess is what, if

41:26I'm really blunt about it, I just feel like that just happened naturally in my

41:30friend group when I was a kid.

41:31Like there were some kids who were more developed and more athletic or better at

41:34this or better at that.

41:36And we just kind of all fell into place.

41:38It wasn't necessarily about being at the apex or being at the bottom.

41:42Or the intention to harm.

41:42Yeah, we sort of formed a team where you understood that this kid was fast

41:49and this one was strong and this one was clever and this one was creative.

41:52And actually there was a goofy kid on our street who was always the comedian.

41:55I think later he actually tried to become a comedian or became a comedian.

41:58And everyone just kind of like, was like, all right, you didn't expect him to

42:02be like the other kid and you didn't expect yourself to kind of check off

42:05all boxes. I wonder the extent to which young males in particular nowadays feel the

42:11need to check off all the boxes of what it is to be a guy.

42:16Play a sport, be good in school, you know, whatever.

42:21Well, that's again the developmental thing.

42:24And I think what happens is that in, you know, you watch kids play in

42:28kindergarten, they're not thinking about this kind of stuff.

42:31Although it's sinking in or it's seeping in, what's the word?

42:37I was in a school recently and a boy raised his hand that he was

42:42in the blue quadrant of our mood meter and he was feeling down or sad.

42:47And I said, do you need anything right now?

42:49And he said, no. And I got kind of like taken by surprise.

42:53And I said, you know, you sure?

42:55We can talk about it.

42:56He's like, I don't want to bother you, sir.

43:00And that was an eye -opener for me, you know, that already, like his emotions

43:05were a nuisance. And that's what I want to make sure that we address.

43:11No one's emotion should be a burden.

43:13A kid should be able to talk about it and deal with it.

43:16We want that kid to be a good learner.

43:18We want that kid to be a good friend.

43:20And if he's already suppressing, denying, ignoring, you know, in kindergarten, it's not going to

43:26be a pretty ride. And those things change developmentally.

43:30Kids are much more comfortable talking to each other about their feelings in elementary school

43:35and middle school. You know, it starts getting...

43:38You know, it's not going to be a good friend.

43:38You know, I got to look around, and again, with the homophobia piece, and in

43:41high school, you see less and less touching, you know, or, you know, kind of

43:47the kind of friendship kind of stuff that you might have seen early on.

43:54And that goes back to the, you know, the things that we were kind of

43:57chatting about, toxic masculinity, kind of this manosphere.

44:00And again, you know, my hope is that we rethink child development.

44:08We have spent so much time thinking about some of the unnecessary things, you know,

44:14reading and writing and arithmetic obviously are important.

44:17But if you don't recognize that how we feel and how we deal with our

44:22feelings is going to drive the quality of your relationships, your well -being, your ability

44:30to deal with life's ups and downs and the harsh feedback you're going to get

44:33in life, and ultimately, you know, having your dreams come true.

44:38You know, it's interesting. As someone who works at a university where everyone has perfect

44:43SAT scores, everyone has grade point averages that are better than mine were, everyone plays

44:48an instrument I never heard of before, everyone has done everything to get into this

44:53place. And so I have like 700, 800 students right there, and I look at

44:57them all, and I'm like, guess what?

45:00Your SAT scores have no predictive validity.

45:05None. You can't remember its range restriction.

45:08It's like all basketball players are tall.

45:11Height is not going to make or break your basketball performance.

45:15Same thing applies in a room filled with people with, you know, high academic performance.

45:19And then, all right, well, what is the predictor?

45:22Well, obviously, it's going to be something else.

45:25And then we start thinking about, well, what are the attributes that employers are looking

45:30for? Right now, it's not technical skills as much as it used to be.

45:36Right now, it's like, can this person, like, take feedback well?

45:41Can this person, you know, lead a team and people will want to be around

45:45that person? I found in my research, for example, that managers and leaders who are

45:50good co -regulators, that, for example, during the pandemic, I did this longitudinal study.

45:55And I found that in schools, in particular, where I do a lot of work,

46:00that when a teacher perceived their leader as both self -regulated and who was good

46:08at co -regulating. So what that means is that, like, I'm looking at you right

46:11now, I'm thinking, okay, you know, it feels like the world's coming to an end.

46:15Are you going to fall apart or are you going to make it?

46:17That's number one. Number two is, are you going to be there for me?

46:21Are you going to be able to support me and deal with the chaos that

46:24I've got to deal with?

46:25And what we found in our research is that highly predictive of the culture of

46:29the school, highly predictive of burnout, highly predictive of job satisfaction, frustration levels were 40

46:36% lower in schools where there were leaders with these skills.

46:40That's what people are looking for these days, more so than anything else, you know,

46:45more so than beforehand. I feel like the word that comes to mind is calibration.

46:49And in anticipation of today's discussion, I was speaking to a friend.

46:54I said, you know, where are you at with kind of men expressing emotions, you

47:00know? And, you know, she said, well, I've seen you cry.

47:03And I was like, yeah, you know, she said, and it can be beautiful.

47:06Like, you know, you hear that, right?

47:07It can be beautiful. And I said, but when is a man expressing emotion a

47:13problem for you? Like, assuming it's not like outward anger or abuse or, you know,

47:18his sadness. Okay, was the example I gave.

47:21And she said, if he gets very sad about things that happen a lot, it

47:29makes it hard to imagine that how he would hold it together if really big

47:34stuff happened. And so it's exactly what you described in the workplace, right?

47:39This notion of calibration. So let's say I'm okay with people expressing their emotion, crying

47:45when they're sad, et cetera.

47:47But if that's happening a lot under everyday conditions, I could imagine, let's say you're

47:53in a work or a relationship with this person.

47:55And you think, well, goodness, like people die, right?

47:58You know, I'm 50 now.

48:00People die as you get older.

48:01More and more people die.

48:02That's just kind of the way it works.

48:03What's going to happen then?

48:04I think there's this underlying question, which is, are you going to be available for

48:10all the other things we depend on each other for?

48:13And this could be romantic relationship.

48:14It could be in the workplace.

48:16So I do wonder whether or not people are trying to work out sort of

48:19what people are calibrated to.

48:21Like trying to understand somebody's, I don't want to say emotional set point, but when

48:25they're able to, you know, just pack it down and deal with it on their

48:29own later. Or whether it really needs to become the focus.

48:33Like just to just quickly layer in another example, I have a friend who runs

48:38a big scientific laboratory. Their laboratory gathered together and did a presentation for this lab

48:45director and had created a statistical bubble map of their experience of being in the

48:50lab. And there was a giant bubble in the middle that just said stress.

48:55And they invited someone from HR and the whole idea here was to let the

48:58boss know that they were really stressed out.

49:02And I said, let me guess, you were probably thinking he came.

49:05up in a very very hard branch of science and I said let me guess

49:09you're probably thinking what happened to science he said he said for a little while

49:14and then I figured well this is the next generation I have to work with

49:19this so they were calibrated to different set points and I could imagine that's hard

49:22across generations but even within generation that's got to be really really tricky so you're

49:28all about measurement creating actionable tools is there a language around this is there a

49:35way that we can yes learn to process and deal with our emotions express our

49:40emotions in a more healthy way also understanding of other people's emotion calibration point a

49:46couple of things one is that going back to the kind of partner leader position

49:52is I think the confusion that people have again going back to vulnerability and emotion

49:59dysregulation is that me being vulnerable or me sharing that I'm anxious or overwhelmed or

50:04afraid means that I'm weak and I think what leaders need to do is recognize

50:10like during the pandemic I never forget this like wait the university shut down everything

50:14was freaking out I knew my team was freaked out they were stressed out about

50:18their jobs they were dealing with being parents and also being employees and working from

50:23home and all that stuff here I was like the head of the emotional intelligence

50:27lab and like how you doing Mark and I'm like great everything's fine and meanwhile

50:31I'm like I hate my life and I hate everybody around me you know I

50:34had this mother -in -law you know that story she was stuck with me and

50:37um and then I realized one day like I'm being a terrible role model I'm

50:43not being authentic and I'm not demonstrating the skill so I decided to be really

50:49honest and say I'm gonna be frank it's tough right now but here's what I'm

50:54doing I'm going for that walk every day at five o 'clock I can't go

50:58to my hot yoga class but guess what I'm I found new workouts online that

51:02I'm doing and I'm doing x y and z so the point is is that

51:06I think vulnerability that's like sharing and like you know spewing out all the fears

51:14that you have is not helpful when it's not accompanied by the strategy and that's

51:21the key is that I'm feeling this way but here's what I'm doing about it

51:26that's what a role model is and that's what a parent needs to do the

51:30parent you know has to come home and say you know I can imagine this

51:34like you're a dad and you're trying to be a role model for your kid

51:40and here's my dad my dad would have a hard day at work daddy let's

51:43play son leave me alone done like that was the end of it as opposed

51:49to dad comes home daddy let's play son you know you have to realize I

51:55have to just tell you something I just had a really rough day at work

51:58I actually got into a fight with a colleague of mine didn't go well and

52:02I said something that I really feel bad about and so daddy just needs a

52:06little bit of time to just process that to just think about what I can

52:10say tomorrow to kind of help my relationship and if you don't mind I need

52:15that time right now I love you and we'll play later but right now I'm

52:19just not in the right space for it okay son okay dad all right let's

52:24stop there what did I just teach my son or daughter about feelings all right

52:30I'm a dude I'm a dad who has feelings I am someone who makes mistakes

52:35I say things that I regret I reflect on the things that I make mistakes

52:39about I problem solve about the things that I make mistakes about I need time

52:45to you know recoup you know my energy and then I can come back and

52:49be with you how much time did that take seconds yeah but how many of

52:53us you know are around people that can process emotion that way that have the

52:58capacity to say I'm in a dark place things didn't go well I made a

53:02mistake I feel bad about it I need to strategize and then we'll come back

53:06and be together what happens to most of us we're activated like I'm pissed off

53:12at the person at work and I project it on everybody else that's you know

53:16in my next situation and the power of emotional self -awareness going back to what

53:22we started with and the power of emotion regulation is that I notice that there's

53:28a shift I notice that I'm feeling this anger this frustration I'm about to go

53:34into a new environment with my family and I know because I'm emotionally intelligent that

53:40it's not going to be pretty if I don't process that emotion before I move

53:44into the next situation so what I'm going to do is I'm going to take

53:46a breath I'm going to take what I call a meta moment I'm going to

53:50pause I'm going to take a breath I'm going to think about the best version

53:54of Mark the father I want to be the husband I want to be and

53:59then I'm going to open the door and arrive through that lens that's what this

54:03work is about it's what people need to learn I'm fascinated by time perception and

54:11I feel like the human brain is so incredible at being in the moment and

54:14also getting ahead and thinking behind and what you're really talking about is projecting into

54:19the future in a healthy way not future tripping as they call it but in

54:23a healthy way and I think that I mean broadly speaking I'm almost embarrassed to

54:27say this as a neuroscientist but you know the more limbic we are so to

54:33speak. I realize that's not really a thing, but the more limbic we are, the

54:37more in the moment we tend to be.

54:40And it's harder to get that version of ourself.

54:43But when we're relaxed, it's very easy to be like, well, I can remember this

54:46time or I'm going to project into the future.

54:48So to some extent, healthy recognition of one's emotions, it seems healthy expression of one's

54:55emotions is the ability to feel, but also split off from the presence enough to

55:03get perspective, the time perspective.

55:05I mean, it's all a shift in the time domain.

55:08You're not like, I'm going to go to this island in the Caribbean for a

55:11moment, although that might be a useful tactic.

55:13But that ability to tolerate stress and segment a piece of one's mind and emotions

55:20and go, okay, that's all happening.

55:22And I'm going to get like right over here.

55:24That is a skill. So the way I like to think about it is that

55:27we have to move from automatic, habitual, unhelpful reactions to deliberate, conscious, helpful responses.

55:40Because we become more automatic when we're flooded with our emotions.

55:45We rely more on habits and usually bad habits.

55:49And so to build that space between the stimulus and response, like the question always

55:52people say, what is that?

55:54What do you do with that space?

55:55How long is the space?

55:56I need a, some people say, I don't need a meta moment, which is one

55:58of our tools. I need a mega moment, you know?

56:01And maybe you do. Maybe you take three loops around the house before you walk

56:05inside the door to get your kind of parasympathetic nervous system where it needs to

56:10be. That is the key to emotion regulation right there.

56:14We had Richie Davidson on the podcast and he talked about this myth about meditation,

56:19that it's supposed to clear the mind and make you relax.

56:22And he said, it's, it's actually really about stress tolerance.

56:24You're supposed to sit there and resist the temptation to get up and move.

56:28Like it's really stress inoculation, which I think is a really beautiful way of thinking

56:33about and different way of thinking about meditation.

56:35So do you recommend that people meditate in order to become better emotion regulators?

56:40100%. Especially because if you can't be still, it's going to be hard to access

56:47the good strategies. It's a necessary but insufficient strategy.

56:51I know that we're obsessed in our world right now with breathing and mindfulness and

56:55it's great, but it's not enough.

56:59At the end, I'm going to have to have the difficult conversation and regulate during

57:02that conversation. I can't be in my room by myself meditating.

57:06I always joke when my, you know, I opened my book with that story of

57:10my mother -in -law and I would take a breath.

57:14It's even clearer why you have to get the hell out of my house, right?

57:17So like the breath may help you deactivate, but it doesn't necessarily shift your perspective.

57:23That's the mindfulness work. And I want to jump in now because I think even

57:28the taking the moment to recognize you need to take this meta moment is a

57:32mindset piece. It's saying emotion regulation is important.

57:37I'll be a better version of myself if I don't walk into my house in

57:42this angry state and project it onto everybody else.

57:46But that's, we've only gone through one of like eight domains that I think are

57:49important. The next is like, you got to know what you're feeling because the feeling,

57:56as I said in my formula earlier, is going to drive the strategy selection.

58:00So that labeling piece is really important.

58:02And I find that people's vocabularies is just awful.

58:06People, I'm fine. I'm okay.

58:07I'm upset. You know, I don't think we did this last time, but if I

58:11were to push you, anxiety versus fear versus pressure versus stress.

58:19I've thought about these before.

58:20So, but it ends up being hair splitting.

58:24And then I go into scientific operational definitions.

58:27So yeah, you know, anxiety, kind of a generalized state of too much sympathetic arousal,

58:35you know, stress is one or usually I'd add to that, you know, one or

58:40several things that I can pinpoint as kind of a source of that elevated level

58:44of arousal. You know, panic would be if you've gotten so far outside the time

58:52domain perspective like that the physiology overtakes and overwhelms.

58:58Like I get into my scientist definition mode.

58:59Yeah. And I think that's interesting because a lot of people, well, most people, by

59:04the way, say it's all the same shit.

59:06It's all one big, yeah.

59:08You know, you're, you know, technical.

59:11You're like, well, this is cortisol and this is, you know, epinephrine and this is

59:14this. And that's all good too.

59:16But in the end, what you're regulating oftentimes is the, underneath the emotion.

59:23And so anxiety, uncertainty around the future, right?

59:27I get anxious when I can't predict.

59:28Right. That's really what deep anxiety is.

59:31I want everything to be exactly the way I want it to be and I

59:34can't control that. So, oh, stress is having too many demands and not enough resources.

59:40Pressure or something at stake is dependent upon your behavior.

59:43Fear is immediate danger. So when I give you those kind of what we call

59:47in psychology, the core relational themes, the appraisals that are part of those emotions, does

59:55it make you see how your strategy choice might be different?

1:00:00Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. And speaking of, you know, I doubt it's just two bins, but

1:00:07I've heard once that, you know, some people need to learn to externalize or to

1:00:12talk about their feelings more, other people probably less.

1:00:15I've heard this. Uh -huh.

1:00:16For sure. I'm friends with a couple, and one of them says she calls herself

1:00:23an external processor. So if something's bothering her, she has to externally process it, and

1:00:27her wife is an internal processor.

1:00:29And so this obviously, they've worked this out, and it's pretty cool to see how

1:00:33they do it. But I was like, is that really a thing, external processor, internal

1:00:37processor? And then, of course, my gender biases show up.

1:00:40I go, well, you're two women, so like that, maybe that language is used.

1:00:43But like in heterosexual relationships, it's different.

1:00:46And we laughed about it, and they explained like, no, because actually one of them

1:00:50turns out to be a therapist.

1:00:51So it's like, no, she has many male, female couple clients.

1:00:54So she's a couples therapist.

1:00:56So I got flipped on my back with that one.

1:00:59The thing that I find that I keep projecting into everything I'm hearing, and I

1:01:05want to put the little asterisk here and say that the reason I share these

1:01:10like things that are happening inside is I like to think they're perhaps a proxy

1:01:13for what some people are thinking, or not, but it's that we really, at least

1:01:21in the United States, we really are not a culture that's clearly defined its terms,

1:01:27let alone its ways of being around emotions.

1:01:30Like, this is not like my dad growing up in Argentina in a certain era

1:01:34where, sure, there was a range, but the culture was fairly clearly defined.

1:01:40I mean, here we've got it all.

1:01:43I do. Men expressing anger.

1:01:46Some people call that passionate, depending on what it's about.

1:01:49Other people call that scary and dysregulated.

1:01:52It goes back to your relationship with anger.

1:01:55And so, you know, we construct these emotions in our brains based on our experiences.

1:02:00So I grew up with a dad who had, you know, pressed lips and red

1:02:04face and looked like he was going to like take his belt off and whack

1:02:07me. And so my perception of anger is probably different than your perception based on

1:02:15our upbringing. And that's just, we have to acknowledge that.

1:02:18Now, I could be overreacting to anger, which is not going to be helpful in

1:02:24my life. So I've got to learn to realize that everybody's like your dad.

1:02:27Some people can be angry and not aggressive.

1:02:30But that's the emotional intelligence journey of learning.

1:02:33If I had no cultivating of skills, I would just assume that's anger.

1:02:41And that's not anger. That's one way of expressing anger that I learned.

1:02:46And I think people get caught up in that.

1:02:48They get attached to what they learned early in life and don't realize is that

1:02:52there's another way. It's kind of why people oftentimes get stuck with trauma because they

1:02:57are fixated on that experience that they had.

1:03:01And they haven't learned how to reframe or haven't learned how to compartmentalize that particular

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1:04:31So thus far we've highlighted at least one thing that can be very useful for

1:04:36emotion regulation, which is some short form of meditation for stress tolerance that can create

1:04:43a gap or an opportunity in a moment to at least take some time and

1:04:50regulate a bit. But I'd like to layer on something else, which I'm hearing, I

1:04:55don't want to put words in your mouth, but that I'm hearing, which is we

1:04:58should all know our assumptions or our presumptions based on our upbringing.

1:05:05Correct. Like we need to do this for ourselves.

1:05:07No one can do it for us.

1:05:08No single article is going to spell out the full array of ways that one

1:05:12conceptualizes anger or sadness for men, for women, for straight people, for gay people.

1:05:17But this space is actually worth thinking about, right?

1:05:20Right now there's a little bit of a battle against introspection.

1:05:24This is not introspection. I want to be very clear.

1:05:27That's a separate matter. This is really just what any really good scientist would do,

1:05:32is to know your assumptions before you generate a hypothesis.

1:05:36I mean, it is introspection.

1:05:38I mean— Okay, fair. But just like anything, over -introspection leads to rumination.

1:05:44Mm -hmm. And so we're not recommending—like, I don't want you, Andrew, to, like, be

1:05:49obsessively, compulsively checking in with how you're feeling all day long.

1:05:53That is unhelpful. It's bad, bad, bad.

1:05:55Some people would say, I need to do more of that.

1:05:58Maybe you do. I don't.

1:06:00I don't think so. Emotions matter when they're going to either help or interfere with

1:06:06our performance. That's when we have to check in.

1:06:09Most of the time, thank goodness, they're in the background.

1:06:11Yeah. You know, when you're driving, you know, you're not thinking, how am I feeling?

1:06:14How am I feeling? It would be weird.

1:06:15Like, that would just be weird.

1:06:17And you don't want to do that.

1:06:18But checking in with one's assumptions based on our upbringing, I think, would be very

1:06:22useful. Very. But that's the point.

1:06:24And has that been formalized into a, you know, people love questionnaires.

1:06:29I think if it hasn't been done, I think it would be amazing.

1:06:32About eight months ago, I had this wild experience where I realized I had this

1:06:39massive assumption worked into my framework.

1:06:42So I had these friends, and I was visiting them, and they called me upstairs,

1:06:44and there was a bird flying around, and it was, like, flying into the windows.

1:06:50And I was like, oh, my God.

1:06:52You know, I had birds growing up.

1:06:55Kiwi and Sugar Ray Leonard were, like, my life before I hit puberty, and birds

1:07:00were my life. You know, I loved birds.

1:07:02I love animals of all kinds.

1:07:04And I was looking up there, and this bird's just flying into the window.

1:07:07It's not going to make it out.

1:07:08It's just doing immense damage to itself.

1:07:11And one of them said, you know, oh, he keeps flying against the window.

1:07:16I was like, okay. And I tried to get him out, and I couldn't get

1:07:18him out. Really high ceilings.

1:07:19We didn't have the right thing.

1:07:20And I said, you know, I'm just going to open the windows, go downstairs, come

1:07:23back, and check. And I ended up going back.

1:07:27And they said, well, is he okay?

1:07:29Is he okay? And I'm like, no.

1:07:30I'm like, this idiot bird is, like, flying into the window.

1:07:34It's like this moron is going to kill himself.

1:07:37He got out eventually. And about two weeks later, one of them called me and

1:07:42said, listen, I really need to talk to you about something.

1:07:44It's really been on my mind.

1:07:46I was like, okay. And she said, you know, I was really disturbed how you

1:07:50reacted. I was like, what do you mean?

1:07:53I was like trying to help the bird.

1:07:55Like, you know, I love animals.

1:07:56I mean, I really do.

1:07:57I mean, one of the reasons I like doing the work I do now and

1:07:59said what I used to do is I don't have to work on animals anymore.

1:08:01I hated it, honestly. You know, I understand why it has to be done in

1:08:05many cases, but I hated it.

1:08:06And so she said, well, just you're talking to this bird like he's an idiot.

1:08:12And I realized in that moment, I was like, oh, shit.

1:08:15I was like, if you had said, oh, that poor girl, she's flying against the

1:08:19window. I've been like, oh, the poor thing.

1:08:21She really needs it. You know, and I immediately realized this like strong sex slash

1:08:26gender bias that I had that if a female animal is somehow damaging herself, like,

1:08:32oh, my God, help her, save her.

1:08:33And with him, same – if it's a boy, same thing.

1:08:36I want to help. But then my assumption was, you idiot.

1:08:39Like, you idiot. Like, I would – you know, and I realized I grew up

1:08:43in a big pack of dudes.

1:08:44And if someone does something stupid, you're like, you're an idiot.

1:08:47Like, what are you doing?

1:08:47But it's actually – to me, it was a mode of affection.

1:08:51I'm sure I upset some people by saying this.

1:08:54But in full disclosure, I just had this massive assumption.

1:08:58And I've actually had to pay attention to that going forward.

1:09:01But I didn't realize I had that really strong bias.

1:09:05Again, this is all going to that mindset area of emotion regulation.

1:09:10I mean, parents have that with their kids.

1:09:12I can't tell you how many kids – you observe a parent with their son

1:09:17or daughter, it doesn't matter.

1:09:18And the kid is trying to, like, climb a rock.

1:09:22And the parent, because of their own fears, you know, oh, my God, honey, be

1:09:26careful, be careful, be careful.

1:09:28And all of a sudden, the kid is losing their self -confidence to climb the

1:09:32thing, as opposed to a parent who's skillful, you know, who checks their assumptions.

1:09:37You know, I'm nervous. Okay, fine.

1:09:40You're nervous. You know, your kid's probably not going to get hurt.

1:09:43Take a breath. And maybe say something like, honey, gosh, that looks like it's really

1:09:48hard. I'm pretty confident you're going to get there.

1:09:51Let me just come a little closer to be there just in case something goes

1:09:54wrong. But I really do think you're going to make it.

1:09:57What do you think that's instilling in the kid?

1:10:00Totally different way of thinking about it.

1:10:03And so that parent's assumption, that parent's fears is being projected if they're more skilled

1:10:09at co -regulating and recognizing my job is to instill resilience in my kid.

1:10:15My job is to help my kid feel like they can do it on their

1:10:17own. Because that's what this work on co -regulation I'm doing, which I think is

1:10:21so important, is this intentional, you're being super intentional about supporting other people and managing

1:10:27their emotions. But the whole goal of it is to support the other person in

1:10:34being capable of regulating on their own eventually.

1:10:37Not codependent, not coddling, but actually instilling the belief in the other person that they

1:10:43can do it. I love that.

1:10:45I guess what I'd love to know is, is there a formal process or questionnaire,

1:10:53et cetera, to learning to understand?

1:10:56and one's own kind of, the word bias is so low.

1:11:00Yes, there is. The word bias is biased, but to really parse like, oh, this

1:11:04is how I conceive the world in and around emotions, gender -specific emotions, because I

1:11:08think that would just be very useful.

1:11:09It is. Because then it allows somebody to do what you just described and really

1:11:13know the difference between helping somebody get to the point where they can manage their

1:11:18work with their emotions on their own versus projecting our own beliefs around, hey, this

1:11:24is the way it's supposed to be done.

1:11:25Exactly. Yes, there are plenty of surveys, actually, in my book.

1:11:28I even give people a list of them, and you can play around with that

1:11:31and just look at your mindsets and attitudes about them, and you'll see patterns.

1:11:34I had no cognitive awareness that I had this weird relationship to happiness until I

1:11:39did my own exercise, and it was eye -opening for me, and it's actually, I've

1:11:43set goals for myself. Like, Mark, people want, when they're applauding you when you're giving

1:11:47your speech, let them enjoy it.

1:11:49If they're applauding, it means it was good.

1:11:51Don't be like, oh, you know, like, breathe.

1:11:54Breathe, be present, and take it in.

1:11:57And actually, it works. It's a beautiful phenomenon.

1:12:00The awareness of our programming can liberate us from so many painful things.

1:12:08Yeah. We spend a lot of time on this, which is interesting, because I don't

1:12:11usually spend so much time talking about these assumptions and mindsets and beliefs.

1:12:16We spend some time talking about the vocabulary words, which is very important.

1:12:20You've got to be self -aware.

1:12:22Anger is not the same as disappointment.

1:12:24Envy is not the same as jealousy.

1:12:26See, happiness is not the same as contentment.

1:12:29Anxiety, stress, pressure, and fear, and overwhelmed are all different.

1:12:33And I know people listening might be like, oh, my God, you're overwhelming me.

1:12:35But, you know, we have our app that you've seen, the How We Feel app

1:12:38to give you that vocabulary.

1:12:40And it really does matter.

1:12:41It matters for communication. It matters for getting your needs met.

1:12:45It matters for choosing the strategy.

1:12:47But, again, it's not enough.

1:12:49So you've got to know how to breathe, and you have to do your mindfulness

1:12:51work to bring the temperature down, to still your mind.

1:12:55I mean, think about our minds nowadays.

1:12:57I mean, they're just... The ability to process information has dwindled completely.

1:13:02Just to give you one example, we used to do, like, two -and -a -half

1:13:05-minute videos for trainings. People won't get through them.

1:13:1030 seconds. I mean, this is why people aren't learning anything anymore, because how are

1:13:15you going to teach an emotion regulation strategy in 30 seconds?

1:13:18It's like an Instagram post.

1:13:19Of course, that's driving me crazy, too, because so many influencers are...

1:13:23My favorite one recently was this very famous influencer teaching about emotion regulation.

1:13:29And she said, you know, I've decided to throw away my anxiety.

1:13:34And so she's in the car, and she opens the door, and she's like, goodbye,

1:13:38anxiety. And I'm thinking to myself, like, that door is going to hit you so

1:13:42hard in the face. But yet, 3 ,000, 5 ,000, 25, whatever likes, and people

1:13:48are like, oh, my God, I'm throwing away my anxiety.

1:13:50It's like, you can't throw away your anxiety.

1:13:53It doesn't work that way.

1:13:54The quick -fix thing is an issue.

1:13:56Then we've got to learn how to rethink our feelings.

1:14:00That's the programming we have to do.

1:14:02We have to learn some of the things that you've spoken about on other podcasts

1:14:06here, whether it's the cognitive reappraisal, whether it's the reframing, whether it's the distancing, whether

1:14:12it's, you know, having gratitude as opposed to resentment and envy.

1:14:18I mean, I never had anyone help me practice cognitive regulation.

1:14:25Nobody ever taught me. There was even a...

1:14:27I never knew... There was a thing called reframing.

1:14:30And it's saved my life as an adult because, again, we go in with assumptions

1:14:34about other people, too. And if you can say, wait a minute, Mark, is there

1:14:38another way to look at this?

1:14:39Is there another story you can be telling yourself around this?

1:14:43This goes back to something we talked about earlier.

1:14:45We want to be careful about that because in abusive relationships, it can become gaslighting,

1:14:50right? Honey, you know, you're too sensitive.

1:14:54No, you're a jerk. I'm not too sensitive.

1:14:56You're trying to make me feel like, you know, bad about the fact that you're

1:15:00lying to me all the time.

1:15:01Not helpful. And that can be...

1:15:03That's also reframing, but it's a form of deception, you know, where another person is

1:15:09trying to define your reality for you.

1:15:14Super scary. And we can do that to ourselves, too.

1:15:16We can trick ourselves into believing things that way.

1:15:21Reframing is playing with this idea of telling yourself a new story, but you have

1:15:26to always be a scientist about it.

1:15:28And that's the one thing about all the strategies is that you have to come

1:15:31back as a scientist and ask yourself the question, is this helping me live the

1:15:36life I want? Am I in a better relationship?

1:15:40Am I better able at managing my anxiety, applying these cognitive strategies or these labeling

1:15:46strategies? I find psychology fascinating.

1:15:50The reason I became a biologist, however, is because I got confused by psychology.

1:15:59It's too big of a field.

1:16:00Well, and the field wasn't as evolved as it is now, as structured as it

1:16:04is now. But I remember thinking, okay, you know, I could see the argument, maybe

1:16:10even the experiment for healthy expression of emotion, allows that emotion to move through, allows

1:16:17us to be healthier physically and mentally.

1:16:19I can also probably find a manuscript that shows that the...

1:16:24No. No. longer for every minute longer we focus on being angry that our anger

1:16:27grows and I don't know what the answer is I sense it's that's probably not

1:16:32the case but I just remember being very afraid of the contradictions absence makes the

1:16:38heart grow fine fonder out of sight out of mind I was like which one

1:16:41is it exactly and of course it's both right I mean and that's the complexity

1:16:44of the human mind so I decided to think about cells and circuits instead and

1:16:48served me well in my career probably in my life I remain intensely interested in

1:16:54the sorts of issues we're talking about now including these generational differences and here's my

1:17:01question typically most work school and other environments are hierarchical in the sense that the

1:17:06older people have more seniority and more power I sense that nowadays there's an understandable

1:17:12concern and interest in young people's emotions and emotional processing but I also get the

1:17:18sense from my peers that there's this kind of fear of the younger generation like

1:17:24they're actually in control I just got through doing three two hour long trainings because

1:17:29Stanford understandably has you do like harassment training and workplace safety workplace violence you know

1:17:34you have to learn what the rules are and I was very surprised to realize

1:17:39that all faculty and staff and some postdocs take this training students don't take it

1:17:43meaning you have two completely different views of what the rules are and this is

1:17:49not unique to Stanford this is unique to a lot of big organizations and it's

1:17:54not even a criticism I'm sure like everything at Stanford there's a rationale but it's

1:17:58kind of interesting you would hope that there would be a universal at least nomenclature

1:18:03just like we know what mitochondria are here and in Nicaragua it'd be nice to

1:18:08know that I agree you know anger and disappointment while those words are spoken differently

1:18:12in two different countries that there's sort of a basic universal understanding of what emotions

1:18:18are what they're not how much comes from our past how much is about our

1:18:22physiology and kind of how to work with them and I'm not saying this is

1:18:27going to solve all the problems in the world but a lot of the problems

1:18:30that I see out there are misunderstandings about where the line is that's sissy no

1:18:36that's healthy emotional expression okay that's anger no that's passion that person's a narcissist no

1:18:42that person just isn't spending a lot of time thinking about their own thoughts and

1:18:45on and on and on I'm certain that one of the reasons your work and

1:18:50your colleagues work is so important is because we need a universal nomenclature we need

1:18:57an agreement that there's at least a way to understand and navigate this stuff this

1:19:03is why the work I do in schools it's not like a teacher comes to

1:19:06a training and does it in their classroom it doesn't work that way I learned

1:19:10this the hard way it's got to be a systemic approach the leaders the teachers

1:19:14the students and the parents need all the same language to describe the work we

1:19:18do on emotional intelligence it makes a huge difference the superintendent can go into the

1:19:23kindergarten room and have that same conversation we all know what these emotions mean and

1:19:27we're all thinking like scientists around emotions I want to just go back though because

1:19:31something you said I think is important to address and I wish I only wish

1:19:37that there was the correct answer to how we should feel and what we should

1:19:43do with our feelings it just doesn't work that way a funny story about this

1:19:47so I'm giving a speech to 1500 police officers who I don't think were told

1:19:52in advance that some guy from Connecticut was going to be giving a speech for

1:19:56three and a half hours about feelings and so I walk into the room it

1:20:00was like out of a freaking movie and all of a sudden it's like and

1:20:04we're welcoming Mark to talk about emotions and all of a sudden you can see

1:20:07these facial expressions and like some of the I mean these guys were people who

1:20:11can't see me right now like slouching and it's like you know with their guns

1:20:14in their pockets I'm thinking to myself what have I gotten myself into and so

1:20:18I start you know playing around I'm telling jokes I've got to figure out how

1:20:22to meet these this group and the thing that struck me that I haven't forgotten

1:20:28was one guy just stood up and he's like I'm not sure I'm interested in

1:20:34this I said okay he said but I am I do want to know one

1:20:38thing doc what's the only strategy that works and I said and of course I'm

1:20:45a psychologist like it doesn't work that way there's many strategies it's an emotion by

1:20:50person by context phenomenon and I people are so desperate for the right answer I

1:20:58think the beauty of it is that it's messy the beauty of it is that

1:21:03it's a journey the beauty of it is that it's a process the beauty of

1:21:07it is that we have to ask ourselves questions over the course of our development

1:21:10is how I'm living my life working for me or against me to achieve my

1:21:14goals and we have to check in with other people like our partners and our

1:21:18friends and our kids and whoever else and our colleagues and I hate to say

1:21:24that but the people who you know are dying for the correct strategy there is

1:21:29no correct strategy every you know I worked as a fitness instructor for 10 years

1:21:34of my life while I taught martial arts I saw so many people use exercise

1:21:38as a way to escape their reality they just want the treadmill for 10 hours

1:21:42a day with an eating disorder who are thinking this is you know my healthy

1:21:47strategy and they were ruining their lives the same thing with food the same thing

1:21:50with you can trick your yourself into believing things the goal of this work is

1:21:56to help people pause consider ideas and then you have to go back and say

1:22:04how is my life how are my relationships how's my work going etc and that's

1:22:11where the the real beauty comes out of the learning I'm using my checking back

1:22:18into my developmental biases as a way to ask questions that I hope are relevant

1:22:25to everyone and now especially and one of the things that I've observed is that

1:22:30there seems to be a broadening of the context in which broader ranges of emotions

1:22:36are allowed online is a really good example of all of it all of it

1:22:42right and I think that the the judgments about well this person is losing their

1:22:47cool and someone say well you know so -and -so stepped in front of his

1:22:50motorcycle for instance you know I mean these are the debates that reflect all these

1:22:54developmental biases and in some cases there's a legal line and those legal channels by

1:22:59the way are very interesting there's a great channel it's a little too Hollywood in

1:23:04because the guy worked in Hollywood but he's a lawyer and it's called the legal

1:23:07beef I don't know him but he does these everyday cases of like is someone

1:23:11says like it's illegal to film here you can't touch my camera or you know

1:23:14and he goes well that's the legal beef tells you and he gives you exactly

1:23:17what the law says and so I think we tend to like that I certainly

1:23:21like that like where I like thick black lines clear operational definitions but it is

1:23:28true that for instance growing up I wasn't of the mind that you know it's

1:23:34not okay to cry I just but it was definitely certain places certain times yeah

1:23:39it does seem like the workplace and school and online it's become either more accepted

1:23:46or it just happens that people are bringing more of their own stuff and I

1:23:53think one thing I worry about I'm showing my age here but the one thing

1:23:56that I worry about as people think about their emotions without having really good strategies

1:24:03to work with them is that they lose the ability to be effective I agree

1:24:09because time is running and I hear from a fair number of friends whose kid

1:24:13is struggling because they're dealing with depression or they're dealing with anxiety or they have

1:24:18a cannabis use disorder or their time's ticking and developmental milestones are real and so

1:24:25the question I have is how should people think about evolving their own ability to

1:24:32work with their emotions because you said it's a process it's a dance it takes

1:24:37time with the need to really show up and get things done in life yeah

1:24:41because you and I are two people who are degreed and have steady jobs and

1:24:45and it's we have space to think about this stuff well we do and I

1:24:51always tell people that like for example there's a school I won't mention its name

1:24:56because this is not a good story post the election this past election wrote a

1:25:01note to every student and said we recognize that some of you may be feeling

1:25:05overwhelmed by your feelings and if you need to take the day off it's okay

1:25:09I almost had a conniption about that I was that's my father speaking conniption but

1:25:14I was like I cannot believe this is that they weren't what it was cool

1:25:18that I work with I wanted to call the head of that school and say

1:25:21like this is the worst advice you can give people people have to learn how

1:25:25to live with difficult feelings and if we're going to give excuses to people to

1:25:30like you know they can just like I'm overwhelmed by what's happened and not be

1:25:33able to process it and manage it and move forward in their life we're going

1:25:37to create a generation of very weak people so I couldn't agree more and that's

1:25:41not what this work is about like that's the confusion it's been politicized in many

1:25:45ways sometimes and there's groups of people now that say this is you're making kids

1:25:48fragile by having them talk about their feelings and I say it's called emotional intelligence

1:25:53emotion regulation we're not letting them like sit in their feelings all day long we

1:25:58want them to recognize is that feeling helping or hurting them achieve their goals if

1:26:02it's getting in the way you need to strategize and the goal is to move

1:26:07forward not to be stuck in I think that's a huge huge issue right now

1:26:11and the same thing with discomfort like it's okay to be uncomfortable I mean my

1:26:17whole career is built upon being uncomfortable people saying I don't like your work your

1:26:21program's going to turn kids into homosexuals I don't want to talk about feelings you

1:26:25know you're this I'm not a psychologist but you recreated your childhood with the public

1:26:29yeah there you go sublimated but you know I love that feeling that discomfort I

1:26:36sit with it I don't try to push it away and I think Mark what's

1:26:40your creative solution that to me is like the beauty of the work I don't

1:26:44get it if I were if I just got paralyzed you know by that I

1:26:48would where would I go in life I would be frozen we don't want kids

1:26:51to be frozen we don't want anyone to be frozen I want people to be

1:26:54able to live their lives experience the full range of emotions regulate effectively and achieve

1:26:59their goals I'm no psychologist I've said that four times but I have the strong

1:27:05feeling that your martial arts training prepared you to be public facing because it is

1:27:10a relationship right and I'd like to talk a little bit about that relationship specifically

1:27:14because you've been this amazing ambassador for emotions what they are you to work with

1:27:20them in a healthy way, and to also still show up in life, to not

1:27:24necessarily take the day off, right?

1:27:27I mean, if you lose a close family member, we would all say, like, of

1:27:31course, stay home, take a day, take what you need, right?

1:27:34But eventually come back. You know, that's an important piece, too.

1:27:37That's an important piece, too, to not, as one scientist I used to work with,

1:27:41say, you know, dissolve into a puddle.

1:27:43He used to say when someone's paper came back, he said, and if it gets,

1:27:46before you look, if it gets rejected, don't dissolve into a puddle of your own

1:27:50tears. It was that kind of old -school harsh thing, but I think it came

1:27:53from a place of care, because you're like, listen, it's not the end of the

1:27:56world, and there have been graduate students who have killed themselves on the basis of

1:27:59their PhD not going well.

1:28:00I know stories about this, sadly.

1:28:03You have taken some heat for both being a champion of this process, but also

1:28:11by not giving in to this idea that we're all just supposed to take the

1:28:15decade off. And so you get it from both sides.

1:28:19You're in a unique position.

1:28:20Yeah. And I feel for you, because some people will say, hey, listen, you're teaching

1:28:23people to be soft, and clearly that's not what you're advocating for.

1:28:29And people have also said, hey, you're pushing us to, like, push our feelings away,

1:28:35and there's a lot that we're really angry about in the world, and how can

1:28:39you be talking about this when fashion is taking over, there's a war, and on

1:28:45and on and on and on and on and on.

1:28:46So how have you, just personally, if you're willing, how has that landed, and how

1:28:52have you decided to respond to that?

1:28:54I love challenge. And so, you know, I wrote this piece for Time magazine, and

1:28:59of course, you probably know this, but when you write an op -ed, the publisher

1:29:03decides on the title, and they like to be provocative, so they called it the

1:29:07overreaction epidemic, and I got slammed for it.

1:29:10You know, overreaction, we're not overreacting, the world's coming to an end.

1:29:14And it does feel like, for many of us, you know, between wars and everything

1:29:18else happening, political polarization, you know, it does feel that way for many on both

1:29:23sides. And I say, yes, but running around yelling and screaming at people, well, how

1:29:31is that helpful? Like, where is the benefit to you and to the other person

1:29:35to move forward? And so, to me, it just makes me think more creatively about

1:29:41the work I do. And the other side, you know, where people have said that

1:29:46I'm now making people fragile, because I'm getting kids and boys to talk about their

1:29:50feelings, and it's going to make them more fragile.

1:29:53As a matter of fact, I saw somebody said recently that this work causes kids

1:30:00to have mental illness. And I was like, wow, that's a good one.

1:30:08And, again, this stems from misunderstanding of the concepts.

1:30:12A, I'm a big stickler, like you said, operational definitions.

1:30:15I want to be super clear about what I'm teaching.

1:30:18I'm not teaching la, la, la, la.

1:30:22I'm teaching you how to be emotionally self -aware.

1:30:25Would you agree that it matters to be clear about what you're feeling?

1:30:30Yes. Thank you. Okay. So, when you're clear about how you're feeling, and if that

1:30:35feeling is disrupting you from being a good student or being a good partner or

1:30:40being a good manager leader, do you think that you should use techniques to help

1:30:44you figure out how to manage it?

1:30:47Yes, absolutely. Perfect. That's what we teach.

1:30:50It's really clear. When you have conceptual clarity, I think there's less confusion.

1:30:56What happens is that people, it's gotten politicized.

1:31:01It's confusing around going back to what we spoke about earlier, that this is obsessive

1:31:07checking in. This is prying into kids' personal lives.

1:31:11Here's the deal. A kid comes to school with feelings.

1:31:17We all have feelings from the moment we wake up in the morning until the

1:31:20time we go to bed at night, even when we sleep.

1:31:22Have you ever been irritable in the morning?

1:31:25Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. And have you ever noticed that we call it incidental leakage.

1:31:31It's not a great term.

1:31:32But, like, you're irritable. You really haven't processed it.

1:31:35And you get maybe to the studio here.

1:31:37And then maybe people are trying to interact with you.

1:31:39And you're not, like, the best version of you.

1:31:42Definitely. Yeah. That's what happens.

1:31:46And so that happens to a kid who's gotten bullied on the bus or had

1:31:49a fight at home. And you want that kid, like every parent does, I want

1:31:53my kid to be a good learner, you know, have good friends, et cetera.

1:31:57All right. So now I'm teaching you a process, Andrew, that before you walk into

1:32:04the studio, I want you to take 30 seconds, maybe 20 if you get good

1:32:08at it, to just check in.

1:32:09Take a breath. How are you feeling?

1:32:11Gosh, I'm pissed off at that phone call I had.

1:32:13I'm annoyed at this. Okay.

1:32:15How do you want to be seen and talked about and experienced in that studio

1:32:17today? Oh, wow. It's a whole, like, even saying that, like, it makes you, like,

1:32:24stand still and, like, reflect.

1:32:27Well, I'm going to be this cool dude who's, you know, compassionate and creative.

1:32:35Okay. Well, what do you need to get there?

1:32:38And then you walk in.

1:32:40And all of a sudden, you have attributed the emotion to its actual cause, which

1:32:45is that stupid phone call, whatever happened.

1:32:46And then you're going to be the one that's going to be the one that's