The Manosphere Report

0:00Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and

0:05actionable science -based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.

0:11I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of

0:16Medicine. And now for my discussion with Jeff Cavalier.

0:20Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.

0:23I'm glad to be here.

0:24It's amazing. I'm a longtime consumer of your content.

0:28I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness, both in the weight room, cardio, nutrition, things

0:35that I've applied for over a decade.

0:37One of your mantras is, you know, if you want to look like an athlete,

0:40train like an athlete. And I think that's something really special that sets aside what

0:45you do from what a lot of other very well -qualified people do.

0:50What's the sort of contour of a basic program that anybody could think about as

0:55a starting place? I think it's like a 60 -40 split, which would be leaning

0:59towards weight training, you know, strength and then, you know, the conditioning aspect be about

1:0540%. So if you look at it over the course of a training week, I

1:08mean, five days in a gym would be a great task.

1:10And obviously not in the gym, it could be done at home, but three days

1:13strength training, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, conditioning, Tuesday, Thursday, you know, two days.

1:18It's a pretty easy roundabout way to split that up.

1:21Of course, depending upon training goals, and as you said, the aesthetic goals like that

1:25will shift dramatically. But if you want to see the benefits of both, that's probably

1:30the effective dose for strength training and the effective dose for conditioning at the bare

1:35minimum level. We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less if possible.

1:38Now, depending upon the split that you're following, if you're on a total body split,

1:43there's just going to be more that has to be done in a given amount

1:45of time. But in general, when you're not focused on that one aspect, but the

1:49overall health picture, then you can get the job done in under an hour.

1:54And again, I always say on top of if you want to look like an

1:57athlete, train like an athlete is you can either train long or you can train

2:00hard, but you can't do both.

2:01As you start to get older, it's the length of the workout that actually causes

2:06more problems than the intensity of what you're doing.

2:09particularly if you're warmed up properly, like you said.

2:11I've found personally that my warmup has had to become more of an integral part

2:15of my workout than it ever has before.

2:17In terms of splits, you mentioned splits.

2:19And so for those who aren't familiar with this term splits, it's really which body

2:24parts are you training on which days?

2:25I've seen you discuss, you know, three days a week, whole body workouts.

2:30I've heard of splits like a pushing one day, pulling another day, legs another day,

2:36a day off, repeat. I mean, there's so many variations on this.

2:38What's governing the split? For me, the first rule is, will you stick to it?

2:43I don't particularly like full body splits.

2:46I don't necessarily like to have to train everything.

2:49Now, of course, the volumes will come down per muscle group.

2:52But if you don't like to do that and you actually don't look forward to

2:56your workout because you're dreading having to do everything and feeling maybe too fatigued by

3:00the time your workout's over, or the fact that those generally do take a little

3:03bit longer and don't fit into your schedule, I don't care how effective the split

3:07is. A split not done is not effective.

3:09So you need to find one that fits.

3:11So maybe you go into an alternative option like a push -pull legs, like you

3:15mentioned. That could be done either one cycle through the week on a Monday, Wednesday,

3:19Friday split, or it could be twice in a week.

3:22So you're actually training six times, you know, where you repeat it, you know, pull

3:25-push legs, pull -push legs, or, you know, however you want to do it with

3:29either a day off in between the three days or at the end of the

3:32six days. And again, that actually impacts your schedule.

3:36I've broken that down before where it's, you know, if you put it in between

3:39the three days, it's good because you're giving yourself an extra rest day in between,

3:42but it starts to shift that day off every week as we wrap around.

3:46So for those guys that were choosing that seven -day schedule out of convenience in

3:49our heads, you know, it starts to mess with that off day.

3:52So others like to just keep it predictably, let's say on a Sunday, and train

3:55six days in a row.

3:57But that's a better way to maybe group similar muscle actions together, which I think

4:04I definitely prefer that because if I'm going to be training, you know, pulling movements,

4:09at least there's a synergy between them.

4:11And I feel like I'm looking to achieve one goal that day.

4:16And then, I mean, quite honestly, you can go back to the bro split days.

4:20and those still work effectively.

4:23There's a reason why they worked in the past.

4:25I think that science shows that there's smarter ways to do them these days.

4:29You can come back and hit a related muscle, so you could do, let's say,

4:34biceps on one day and then come back two days later and do back, realizing,

4:38again, synergy between the exercises there, your biceps are going to get re -stimulated again.

4:43You could figure out ways to make that work, but the thing that I think

4:46is effective there is that tends to be one of the ones that people like

4:49the most because they can go in, they get their pump, they feel good.

4:53It's pretty solely focused on one muscle group.

4:56Is that the definition of a bro split?

4:58One muscle group a day.

5:00I see. So it's very much geared towards strength and aesthetics, really maximizing chest one

5:05day. Probably more aesthetics than strength.

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6:17In terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training and resistance training, same day, different

6:27day, which one should come first, which one should come second?

6:31So again, I... I think that the bare minimum is probably twice a week in

6:35terms of cardiovascular if you want to have some semblance of cardiovascular conditioning.

6:39But I think most people who actually need it more or want to pursue it

6:42more than that are going to need more time to do that.

6:45So at some point, it can't just be relegated to a day off or a

6:49day off from the weight training workouts.

6:52So at some point, it has to occur on the same day.

6:55And in that case, I just like to put it at the end of the

6:58workout because you don't want it in any way compromise the weight training workout.

7:02The intensity of those workouts is important.

7:04I just like to put that at the end, realizing that even if my effort

7:09level is lower, my output is lower, if it's still placing a demand on my

7:15cardiac output to get that conditioning effect because I'm fatigued, it still has a demand

7:21on my cardiac output. So it's still achieving its goal, but it didn't interfere with

7:24my main goal of being able to increase my performance in the gym.

7:28And in terms of the form of cardiovascular training, I've seen you do a number

7:32of, I have to say, very impressive high intensity interval type work rather than on

7:39the treadmill or out jogging for 30, 45 minutes.

7:42Is that because you prefer higher intensity, higher heart rate type training?

7:47If we could blend function across these realms and not have such a delineation between

7:54this is my weight training and this is my conditioning, but figure out a way

7:57to blend them together. I always think that you've got a better opportunity to get

8:02that more well -rounded result.

8:04And I like to kind of mix up that straight conditioning work and also some

8:09of the footwork drills. Like we have some high expectations for guys that come into

8:13our programs, like to just do some footwork drills, like ladders, like ladders or line

8:18drills or something. And you know what happens?

8:20People become intrigued and interested.

8:22Like I never, I haven't tried this since high school, you know, and they become

8:27interested in just the challenge of it.

8:28And then as we become almost distracted by the challenge, we're now like finding ourselves

8:33conditioning, you know? And, and I always think that's an important part that sometimes you

8:37got to draw people in, um, to get, to show them what they might be

8:41interested in. And from. The output or the effect of it, I just think that

8:45when you're able to blend some of some, you know, still maintain some of that

8:48strength training into the exercise.

8:50So as you mentioned, let's say I'm doing some kind of a push -up or

8:52a burpee. I mean, there is an anaerobic component to that that is going to

8:57be helpful rather than just walking or just jogging.

9:02Not to say that that isn't an effective means for strict cardiac conditioning.

9:08It's one of the ways that we've had for, you know, centuries, you know, to

9:12do it. But I just think that if we can blend it, then it becomes

9:16maybe a little bit more interesting and you get some of those crossover benefits and

9:20it doesn't become so segmented in terms of what we're trying to do.

9:22One of the most important things I learned from you over the years was that

9:28if you can flex your bicep to the point where it hurts a little bit,

9:32like it almost feels like a cramp or a cramp, or you can flex your

9:35calf to the point where it really cramps up a little bit, almost feels like

9:37it's nodding up. That's a pretty good indication that you're going to be able to

9:41stimulate that muscle well under load if you're doing the movement properly.

9:46How did you arrive at this kind of cramp test, the cavalier test, as I'll

9:49call it? During my workouts, even as a young kid just starting out, I wanted

9:55to know what was supposed to be doing the work.

9:58Once you do that and you start to seek that out and say, okay, well,

10:01if the bicep is what's supposed to be doing the work, then I want to

10:04make sure the bicep's doing the work, right?

10:05So I would seek out ways to make that happen better.

10:10And when I was able to do that, I could feel the stronger contraction.

10:13I was no visionary. I just felt like I knew that that was going to

10:16be better for me if the muscle I was trying to grow was being stressed

10:20more. When I was attempting to do this across different exercises, I would notice that

10:25what I could do potentially on a curl where my arm is up, you know,

10:30where you asked me to flex my bicep, that position, I couldn't do if I

10:34was, you know, doing a concentration curl or I couldn't carry over to a cable

10:38curl. And that shouldn't really change, right?

10:41Because the function is still largely the same.

10:44There's still elbow flexion. There's still supination.

10:46Like, why am I not able to do it there?

10:48And that's where it sort of clued into me that, like, you're my muscle connection

10:53on not. just your mind with one muscle, but on every exercise matters.

10:58And it varies from exercise to exercise.

11:00There's a term I like to call muscularity, which is a difference, right?

11:04It's the level of sort of resting tone in the muscle.

11:06That improves dramatically. If you can learn how to just start to engage that muscle

11:13better, the muscularity, the resting tone of that muscle is harder.

11:18It's more alive. It's all driven from being able to connect better neurologically with the

11:23muscle that you're trying to train.

11:24When you're trying to go and create muscle hypertrophy or even this muscularity that I

11:28talk about, you need to seek ways to make it feel more uncomfortable, right?

11:31If you don't feel the discomfort, then you're doing something wrong.

11:34And I struggle to this day on certain muscle groups to still do that, even

11:39knowing what I'm trying to work.

11:40It's very difficult for some muscles and for certain people to do this on certain

11:43muscles. But as you mentioned, practice does help.

11:47And the more you become consistent and deliberate with what you're trying to do, the

11:52more of an, of a result you actually get.

11:54How do you assess recovery at the local level, meaning at the level of the

11:58muscles? So we'll talk about soreness and getting better, stronger, more repetitions, et cetera.

12:03And then the systemic level, the level of the nervous system, different muscles recover at

12:07different rates. You might have a bicep that's able to be trained that can be

12:11trained again the next day, you know, and then the next day, and then maybe

12:15you need a day off after that.

12:16That can vary from person to person for sure.

12:19And it can vary from muscle to muscle in that person over the course of

12:22time, as you mentioned, because the systemic recovery is going to impact all those muscles

12:27anyway. But let's say you're systemically recovering, every muscle itself is going to have a

12:32recovery rate. And I think that using muscle soreness as a guideline for that is

12:37one of the only tools we have in terms of the local level.

12:41Well, that's the one that most people can relate to and easily identify and then

12:44use that as a guideline.

12:45And if you're training when you're really sore, it's probably not a great idea.

12:49But as far as the systemic, you know, recovery, grip strength is very, very much

12:55tied to performance and recovery.

12:58And when I was at the Mets, we used to actually take grip strength measurements

13:02as a baseline in spring training all the time now.

13:05Obviously, as a baseball player, you're gripping a bat, you're a pitcher, you're gripping a

13:08ball. Like, you know, having good grip strength is important.

13:10So if we've noticed somebody had a very weak grip, it's just a good focal

13:13point of a specialized training component for the program.

13:16Would you do this every day with those guys?

13:17No, we would do, in spring training, we'd do sort of a baseline entry -level

13:20measurement, and then we would measure it throughout the season, maybe once every two weeks

13:25or three weeks. And, you know, the idea there was to measure the recovery.

13:29We have found that with one of those scales, those old -fashioned bathroom scales, it's

13:33a great tool for just squeezing the scale with your hands and seeing what type

13:39of output you could get.

13:40Imagine the last time you were sick, or just try this the next time you

13:44wake up in the morning.

13:45When you first wake up in the morning, you're still groggy.

13:47Try to squeeze your hand.

13:48Try to make a fist as hard as you can.

13:50You're going to sit there angry at your fist because it won't contract as hard

13:53as you know it can.

13:54You don't have the ability to just create the output, and that is because in

14:00that state, you're still sleepy.

14:02You're still fatigued. You know, you're not even awake at the whole level at this

14:06point. So when you start to measure that on a daily basis, you can get

14:10a pretty good sense of where you're at.

14:11And I think when people start to see a drop -off of 10 % or

14:14so or even greater of their grip output, you really should skip the gym that

14:20day because I don't think there's much you're going to do there that's going to

14:23be that beneficial, even if it is the day to train legs or whatever day

14:27it is. I mean, there certainly are more sophisticated tools, too, as a PT.

14:31We have hand -grip dynamometers.

14:34We can measure one side at a time, but that comes at a cost, so

14:38they're pretty expensive devices. But if it's – listen, if you're an athlete, the $200,

14:43$300 it costs to have one of those would be well worth the added investment.

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16:21When's the best time to stretch for particular types of results?

16:26And maybe you could define some of the different types of stretching.

16:28In general, the two basic forms of stretching are active stretching and passive stretching.

16:32And your passive stretching is done with the goal of trying to create an increase

16:37in the flexibility of the muscle.

16:41So whether you're actually increasing the length of that muscle, more so what you're doing

16:44is increasing the resistance, or decreasing the resistance of that muscle to want to stay

16:48at a certain level of flexibility.

16:51When we can sort of take the brakes off and allow that muscle to allow

16:55us more range of motion, we're inherently increasing flexibility without necessarily having to increase the

17:00length of that muscle. That is usually done at a time far away from your

17:04workout because there is a period of recalibration that is needed after doing this because

17:11you're disrupting the length -tension relationship of the muscle that causes you to not necessarily

17:16be able to rely on these, I've talked about before, stored motor engrams in your

17:21mind in terms of this is the pattern for how I swing a golf club,

17:24say. You know, and now - introducing a little bit of flexibility or added flexibility

17:30or range because of the stretching I did before, it takes maybe a hole or

17:34two or three to match up again.

17:37Oh, this is what he's trying to do, that golf swing thing that I remembered

17:41again. It's not remembering that every component like I have to bend my wrist back

17:4610 degrees and then I have to bend my elbow and I have to break.

17:48Your body stores these patterns for motor efficiency.

17:52When I have to start matching up that stored pattern with what's feeling new because

17:56of the increased range, I can impair performance.

17:59And again, it could happen even in a gym workout where you're talking about your

18:02first, second set, third set, where maybe the repercussions aren't as big because I'll just

18:07do a few extra sets.

18:08But in performance, if you screw up your first three rounds, you're playing on a

18:11PGA Tour and you're six over after three, you're done.

18:15So we relegate that, as I mentioned, sort of towards the end of the day

18:17when it's not going to impact performance, but even maybe have the additional benefit of

18:22creating the feeling of length or the increase or decrease in resistance to this length

18:29at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend to

18:32heal and heal shorter, never longer, but heal shorter.

18:35So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra length or decreased resistance

18:39to that length, it's a better time to do it.

18:41So I think it promotes a better recovery.

18:45I'm intrigued by this concept of heal shorter.

18:47So part of the healing and recovery process means a shortening of the muscles.

18:50This is the tensing up in sleep.

18:52Could you elaborate just a bit on that?

18:53Basically, you know, what's been shown is that when the repair process, muscular repair from,

19:00let's say, strength training during the day, the repair process usually results in a muscle

19:04that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length.

19:07You know, muscles prefer to sort of ratchet their way down into that contraction.

19:13So when you're sleeping, it tends to err on the side of shorter rather than

19:17longer when ideally we don't really want that.

19:19We want to maintain as much of that length because with more length, we actually

19:24have more leverage. So again, it's just making a conscious choice to do it at

19:28a time of the day that makes a little bit more sense.

19:31Dynamic stretching is really not done for that purpose of trying to create any type

19:35of increasing the potential length.

19:38as you said of the muscle but more so the readiness of the muscle to

19:41perform and increasing you know exploring the ends of that range of motion in a

19:46more dynamic way so you're not hanging out there and disrupting that length tension relationship

19:51but just sort of touching the ends of those barriers so that when you feel

19:55movement again it feels looser it feels more ready and and obviously at the same

20:00time warming up blood flow all the benefits we get from just warming up in

20:05general so like you know that's that's the series you've probably seen a bunch of

20:08times but like you know leg swings and butt kicks and you know lunge walking

20:13lunges and those are the drills that people will do prior to training that are

20:18both excitatory in terms of just the nervous system but also helpful for just the

20:23general warm -up the body because the blood flow but from a muscle readiness standpoint

20:27not impairing the performance while at the same time exploring the increased range is when

20:33i was working with antonio brown i remember like he would spend 20 minutes 30

20:37minutes on all dynamic work and i've never seen anybody spend that long on their

20:42dynamic work but like he said he just didn't feel right and ready to go

20:47unless he did a lot of that and i mean you know his his dynamic

20:52stretching routine would be a workout for most everybody there's one exercise in one particular

20:57motion that i'd like to discuss for a moment because i believe that learning about

21:03this cautionary note from you is one of the reasons that i've maintained steady training

21:10for 30 years with no major injury knock on wood and that's the upright row

21:15i learned from you that the upright road compromises uh some important aspects of our

21:20shoulder mechanics and can be actually sort of a dangerous movement in some ways but

21:25so i've always made it a point now on the basis of of this advice

21:29to really strive for um external rotation please tell us about internal external rotation why

21:36this is so important not just for weight training but as in terms of posture

21:41and mechanics and and not looking like a melted candle or partially melted candle the

21:47shoulder has the most mobility in the body of any of any joint but it's

21:51also got the least stability right there's always that trade -off of mobility and stability

21:55so your stability comes from you know certain muscle groups and one of the ones

22:01that the only muscle group that actually externally rotates the shoulder is going to be

22:05the rotator cuff okay and unless you are devoted to training through external rotation and

22:11exercises that are going to externally rotate the shoulder you're not training that function and

22:17it's so easy for us in everyday life especially those that aren't training to not

22:22ever really undergo any of those stresses that could be beneficial to counteracting what happens

22:27freely and naturally which is internal rotation so when you think about the imbalance created

22:32just by nature and how we live our lives internal rotation far far far outweighs

22:38external rotation so you need to address it and the reason why you need to

22:42address it is because you need to normalize those biomechanics to the shoulder if you

22:46want their long -term health and one of the functions of the shoulder is to

22:49raise our arm up over our head and if we do that from an internally

22:52rotated position we're going to have a higher likelihood of creating stress inside that joint

22:59in order to get normal mechanics and free up the joint maximally inside you need

23:04to externally rotate as you raise the arm up so if your muscles aren't firing

23:09and they're not necessarily um as strong as the internal rotation bias that pulls them

23:15in you're asking for trouble every time you do that well this exercise is literally

23:20putting you in elevation in internal rotation and if you were to walk into a

23:24pt office and someone said i think he's got impingement will you diagnose him there's

23:28a test called a hawkins kennedy test and i would put you in the position

23:32i know we're not visible at this point through the podcast but i'll put you

23:35in this position here where i have your arm elevated and your hand pretty much

23:39under your chin pushing downward on that to create that internal shoulder rotation pretty much

23:44the exact position that we're in when we're holding a bar in an upright row

23:47some will say well just don't go so high go only up to the level

23:51of the chest but you're still in this internally rotated position the the thing that

23:55i think frustrates me the most about the exercise is that i have an alternative

23:59and The alternative does the same thing in terms of helping the muscles grow by

24:04simply fixing the biomechanics of the exercise, but just allowing the hands to go higher

24:07than the elbows. So instead of the elbows being higher than the hand, which drives

24:11you into internal rotation, if the elbow is lower than the hand, the hand being

24:15higher here, I'm in external rotation.

24:18And I could do something called a high pull and still get the same abduction

24:22of the arm and still get the same benefits of the shoulders, the delts, and

24:25the traps without having to undergo any of the stresses that would come from the

24:29somewhat awkward movement of an upright row.

24:32And people will argue, this is the way they argue that I've done this for

24:3630 years and I've never hurt myself.

24:38And I always say, yeah, yeah.

24:41Like, listen, the goal is to not hurt yourself ever.

24:45So even if you, it's sort of like, you know, the championship game, you know,

24:50you might play the game of your life, but if you lose, you're lost.

24:52And when you get into the end of the, you know, if you lost, I

24:58don't care if you do it for 30 years, no pain, you're still doing it

25:01and there's no pain. I'm giving you an option that's going to give you the

25:04same results in the exercise that you're seeking.

25:06That's why you're doing the exercise without the possibility of having the, you know, the

25:11bad outcome come from it.

25:12The body is like a mirror image.

25:14The hip is like the shoulder, right?

25:15The ankle is the wrist.

25:17The foot is the hand.

25:18Like they're, they fun, the knee is the elbow, they're two hinge joints.

25:21They function that way. Well, with the shoulder, you've got that mobility that comes from

25:26having all that freedom of motion, but the stability is lacking.

25:30Well, the same thing with the hip, like you've got mobility, but if you don't

25:33fully stabilize it by training all of the muscles of the hip, and if you

25:37don't strengthen the external rotation of the hip, then, you know, you've, you're, you're going

25:42to have issues. Like it's not biomechanically going to work the same way.

25:46If you think of the body as a series of, you know, bands, you know,

25:50pulling in different directions at different levels of tension, you know, you're being pulled into

25:55one direction or the other, just by the balance of tension from one weak area

26:00to one dominantly tight area.

26:02And you need to make sure that you can sort of balance this out in

26:05order to eliminate some of the adaptations and compensations that happen.

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27:00One of the great tools that I picked up from your content, which has benefited,

27:05I know, a huge number of people is I think I used to hold weights

27:09sometimes in the tips of my fingers as opposed to in the meat of the

27:12palm of my hands, and I had elbow pain.

27:14Turns out toward the end of my pull -ups or my bicep work, I was

27:17letting the weight or the bar drift into my fingertips.

27:20And the mere shift to making sure that my knuckles were well over the bar

27:25or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms has completely ameliorated

27:30that for reasons that you point out, and maybe you could just share with us

27:33why that is. When you grip a bar, whether it be through a curl or

27:37whether it be, and this is mostly pulling exercises because the tendency for the bar

27:42is gonna be to fall out of your hand, not like with a pushing exercise

27:45where it's kind of, you're pushing your hand into the bar.

27:47So on a bench press, say.

27:49That bar can drift just by gravity doing its thing or fatigue of the hand

27:57grip strength can start to drift further away towards the distal digits, right, through those

28:03last couple knuckles that we have on our hands.

28:05Though our hand can still hold it there, the muscles are not equipped to handle

28:10those types of loads. And it could start at dumbbell weight, you know, 40 pounds,

28:1530 pounds, you know, even 25 pounds or something, depending upon their overall strength levels.

28:19But then when you start to apply it to something like your...

28:22body weight with a chin up, right?

28:25Because that's natural for the bar to somewhat kind of float down towards your fingertips.

28:29And it actually is a little bit easier to perform the exercise with that sort

28:34of like false grip, little hook grip at the end, because you're not going to

28:38engage the forearms into the exercise.

28:40You're not going to start pulling down.

28:42But at the same time, while it could help you to perform them better by

28:47getting the back more activated, if you have weakness in these muscles, because it's not

28:51a thing that happens to everyone.

28:52It's not one of those upright row type things where I think this is happening

28:56to everybody. This is happening to people that have these inherent weaknesses in these muscles.

29:00You or haven't done enough of the gripping in the meat of the hand for

29:06long enough, but it starts to put that stress on these muscles that are ill

29:11-equipped to do this and to handle this.

29:13And it starts to, particularly on that fourth finger, which is part of the muscle

29:18we call the FDS, the flexor digitorum, that is just too much for it to

29:22handle. And that comes all the way down and meets right at the medial elbow,

29:25right on that spot that you can say feels like someone's knifing you right in

29:29the middle, in that medial elbow.

29:30And medial epicondylitis, or they call it golfer's elbow, is something that a lot of

29:36us deal with in the gym.

29:37It's one of the most common inflammatory conditions people get from the gym.

29:41And it all comes from this positioning of the dumbbell or barbell or hand on

29:46a pull -up bar over time.

29:47So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeper so that what you're doing

29:51is you're using more leverage from the palm to encapsulate the bar or the dumbbell

29:57or whatever. And you're not putting that pressure really distally right on that last digit

30:02because that's where that FDS muscle is most strained.

30:06So you're just almost eliminating that from the equation.

30:10And it's one of those exercises that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly.

30:16So that maybe it's only capable of handling 30 pounds.

30:20And then when you're doing a chin -up and it goes and it drifts so

30:23far that it's now let's say you're a 200 -pound guy, you've got let's say

30:28100 pounds through one arm and 100 pounds.

30:30This is simplified math that obviously is offset by other muscles.

30:33But this is great. There are no other math.

30:33I don't think that that would be the hardest way to instance for more than

30:33this if a they are letting that.

30:33You are doing 40 pounds.

30:33100 pounds to one arm, 100 pounds to the elbow, 100 pounds off of a

30:37muscle that can handle 30.

30:38It's not going to take many repetitions to strain it, and you're going to feel

30:41that maybe by the time that sets over, or certainly by the time that workout's

30:45over, or the next day you wake up and you've got that notable stabbing pain.

30:48Whenever someone feels that, the best thing would be to determine, okay, what exercises would

30:54I do that were pulling, and where the bar could have drifted deeper, further from

30:59the meat of my palm into my fingers, and figure out a way to deepen

31:03that grip. When that happens, though, the best thing to do with most of these

31:06inflammatory conditions is not do any of that stuff for a little while.

31:10There's so many other options that you can do that will train similar muscles or

31:14even the same motion and not cause that stress.

31:17So, I mean, a cable curl would be much easier to do that on than,

31:20let's say, a chin -up where you don't have the control over the weight like

31:24you do by moving a pin on a stack.

31:26I do have a question about precision of record keeping.

31:29Do you keep a training journal?

31:31Do you recommend people keep training journals?

31:34I think that anything you can do to increase your awareness of your performance, and

31:39also give yourself some objective goal.

31:42Whenever we have an objective goal, it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.

31:46When you're just there to get a pump, and you're just there to lift how

31:49you feel that day, you have to be incredibly disciplined in all other aspects of

31:55your workout in order to make that effective.

31:57Anything you can do to increase your awareness of it and keep you on track

32:00with that is, like, I'm endorsing fully.

32:02Maybe we could talk about principles around nutrition.

32:05What tends to work? What tends not to work?

32:08And how should we think about nutrition?

32:10My approach is, like, I've always been sort of a low -sugar, lower -fat guy.

32:15That is the best approach for, I believe, again, in my opinion, personally for the

32:21overall big picture. Because though the people can take exclusionary approaches to nutrition and taking

32:27carbs out, or, you know, eating only fats and proteins, or, again, I'm not saying

32:33it doesn't work for you.

32:34And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you to gain control of your

32:36nutrition to the point where you actually saw results and got to a healthier weight,

32:40then I always say, then do it.

32:41Then do it. But just make sure it's something you can do forever and doesn't...

32:44bring upon other repercussions. I think that non -exclusionary approaches to diets are the most

32:52sustainable for the rest of your life.

32:54And all I'm interested in from a nutrition standpoint is something that's sustainable.

32:58In terms of what you do eat, how do you structure that in terms of,

33:02when you look down at a plate, you've done these, you've described this before, but

33:06I think it's just a beautifully simple description because I think a lot of people

33:09don't want to do calorie counting and all this.

33:11I have what I call a plate method.

33:13And it's just simple because it works for me.

33:15When you have your plate, you just simply look at it as like a clock,

33:20right? And if you just make a 9 .20 on the clock, so one arm

33:26goes over to the nine and one of the arms goes over to 20, because

33:29you're gonna make a line towards 12 o 'clock too.

33:31And the largest portion is gonna be your fibrous carbohydrates.

33:35So that's the green vegetables, right?

33:38So whether it be broccoli or Brussels sprouts or asparagus, those are the ones that

33:42give us a lot of the micronutrients we need.

33:44They're the ones that are generally accepted as more healthy.

33:48And they're also gonna provide the fiber that's gonna be both beneficial in terms of

33:52its impact on insulin and also just through filling you up, right?

33:57And then I take the next largest portion of that and I devote that towards

34:01protein. And I think it's really important, especially for anybody active.

34:05The more active you are, the more you embark on trying to build muscle, you're

34:09gonna need to have protein every meal.

34:10So I have that. And again, we're talking cleaner sources of protein, but you'll never

34:16find boiled chicken on my plate.

34:18I'll have some sort of fish or chicken, but it will be cooked in a

34:23way that's like, it's got maybe some sauce on it, or it's got some, maybe

34:27it's tomato sauce, it's anything to just make it a little bit more palatable and

34:30interesting without blowing the value of the meal.

34:33And then that last portion is where I put my starchy carbohydrates.

34:36And again, that's the part that some people will say, exclude them entirely because they're

34:39not healthy or they don't work for you or they're not beneficial long -term.

34:43For me, like most people, my body craves those carbohydrates.

34:47I choose things like sweet potatoes, which is my favorite, or I'll have rice or

34:53I'll have pasta. I will have those things.

34:55excluding them, but I don't put them in the portions that you would generally find.

34:59No plan is going to work if you're eating stuff you don't like.

35:01It's not going to work forever.

35:02Nothing will. You have to really enjoy what you're eating.

35:05As long as these variations of this meal are something that you really enjoy, and

35:11there are limited versions of them, their reproducibility of that is simple.

35:16If everyone listening to this podcast can figure out their nutrition issues, this whole world

35:20will be different. That is one of the largest sources of disease and pain and

35:25discomfort because people really struggle with nutrition.

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36:46What are your thoughts in terms of the nutrition science, the training -related effects of

36:52the post -training meal? Is it something that you think people should pay attention to?

36:56I'm not very dogmatic about what specifically to eat pre or post -workout, but I

37:03do think you should have protein surrounding your training.

37:06whether that be ahead of time or after protein could be a little bit hard

37:11to digest for some people so if you do that pre -workout and then you're

37:15finding your workouts slogging because you don't feel good then suddenly you put that after

37:19your meal but this whole concept of the urgency of time has thankfully been removed

37:26and we can just learn to eat a little bit more uh you know responsibly

37:31and even as far as pre -workout supplements a lot of people don't take them

37:34a lot of people don't like them they don't take them they don't like they're

37:37not necessarily even being used as the new nutritive side of the pre -workout they're

37:42just more new used to fuel the workout um for me it's uh water and

37:47um some form of caffeine yeah i mean it's whatever you know again i think

37:52it's important i do think it's important to maintain a high level of output so

37:55if your pre -work nutrition requires a stimulant in order to help you do that

38:00or if your pre -workout nutrition is causing you to have a harder time to

38:04train because you're feeling full or stomach ache or something else then that that's not

38:09achieving what you're trying to do the ultimate goal is to still be able to

38:12perform at the highest level so whatever your nutrition is required to allow you to

38:16still do that that is probably the most important factor of all of it i

38:19hate to say but it's a lot less scientific than we want to make it

38:24and as it seems to be coming back oftentimes like the thing that works for

38:28you is really the most important thing because ultimately getting your ass in there and

38:32doing what you do is is really the thing that provides the best benefit i

38:35think when you hear things like this that like hey that will work and that

38:39will work too and that this will work too you know rather than the dogmatic

38:43one -way only approach um which could become discouraging for people um then i think

38:49it becomes a little bit uplifting like well i've never tried that i've actually never

38:52tried a total body split or i've never tried you know that style of eating

38:56like it becomes encouraging that you might want to explore and then you might finally

39:00get locked in and say i really like this and then you're off and running

39:03on behalf of myself and all the listeners i really want to thank you and

39:07what i love about all of this now that you've given us is that there's

39:12a there's a backbone of logic you know and some consistent themes indeed about consistency

39:17and but The logical backbone, I think, is what will enable people to really show

39:23up to the table and stay there for training consistently over time.

39:26I'm happy I was able to make it work because I've been watching your stuff

39:29for a while and I really love the science of it.

39:32I like the way you think.

39:33I'm just really fortunate that I was able to do it.

39:35Well, I feel very gratified in hearing that and honored to have you here.

39:39So thank you so much.

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Essentials: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools | Jeff Cavaliere