The Manosphere Report

0:00As a woman, if I honestly thought there were things we should do differently to

0:07optimize our results, of course I would be doing them myself and telling other women

0:12to do them too. The narrative that women need a sex -specific program or nutrient

0:21timing guidance or a particular intensity of exercise or rep range or all of it,

0:28it makes women feel like they're being spoken to and being considered and they're part

0:38of this community instead of, oh, just do what your boyfriend does or what your

0:43husband does. So the narrative is very much women are not men, and so obviously

0:50women need something different. The data says men and women respond to exercise very similarly.

0:58Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science -based tools for

1:03everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford

1:12School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr.

1:15Lauren Colenso -Semple. She holds a PhD in integrative physiology and is a certified strength

1:20and conditioning specialist. She is an expert in both the science and practice of building

1:24muscle and strength, cardiovascular fitness, and the relationship between hormones and exercise.

1:30Today's discussion is focused on fitness for women and how it overlaps directly with the

1:35same things that men should do for their fitness.

1:38Therefore, today's discussion is relevant to both women and men.

1:42Dr. Colenso -Semple explains how to structure your ideal training routine according to the time

1:47you have available and your health and fitness goals.

1:49She also clearly explains what the science says about if and when women's hormone cycles,

1:55life stages such as menopause, and things like birth control should actually impact how women

2:00should train and when. As we all know, information about best practices for fitness, nutrition,

2:06and health are hotly debated online.

2:08Dr. Colenso -Semple has become one of the most trusted voices for explaining what the

2:12science says about women's specific fitness, as well as for delivering clear, actionable evidence for

2:18protocols that work in the real world.

2:20It was a true honor and pleasure to host her on the podcast.

2:23Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching

2:27and research roles at Stanford.

2:28It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer

2:32information about science and science -related tools to the general public.

2:36In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

2:39And now for my discussion with Dr.

2:41Lauren Colenso -Semple. Dr. Lauren Colenso -Semple, welcome.

2:46Thank you. Very excited to have you here.

2:48To kick things off, is there anything fundamentally different about muscle tissue in men and

2:55women? And if not at the cellular level, in terms of the hormone receptors that

3:02they express or the hormones that they're exposed to, in a way that should change

3:07people's behavior about how to exercise.

3:10When we look at how the muscle responds, so we look at muscle protein synthesis

3:15in response to exercise or nutrition, there are no differences.

3:19Very similar protein metabolism response, very similar growth response.

3:26The major difference, and this is hormone -related, is the baseline muscularity.

3:33Because during puberty, when men experience a surge in testosterone, that coincides with an increase

3:40in muscle mass. So if you take an untrained adult man and an untrained adult

3:45woman, there will be a disparity in their baseline muscle mass.

3:50And that is due to differences in testosterone.

3:53However, once they start training, they will gain similar relative size.

3:59So not that I'm suggesting people get into competitive bodybuilding and use steroids, although some

4:06people might make that their life choice.

4:08The vast majority of people won't.

4:10But if we were to look at female bodybuilders at any point in the last

4:1630 years or so, it's very clear that with chemical augmentation, which is typically increasing

4:23testosterone or some testosterone -like derivative, that women can achieve a very impressive level of

4:31muscularity that in many ways rivals what certainly men who are not taking anabolic steroids

4:37can achieve. What does that tell us, the fact that the addition of androgens, testosterone

4:44and testosterone -like derivatives, can take female musculature and make it look essentially like male

4:50musculature? Does that tell us anything interesting that informs the non -steroid user, the non

4:55-bodybuilder? Not so much because we're talking about those supra -physiological levels, and that's the

5:02real game changer. So if we think about even with men, what is the normal

5:07range of testosterone, we don't see this relationship between, oh, you know, you're closer to

5:14900 and you are going to respond better to resistance training.

5:17So as long as you're within that wide, normal range, there doesn't seem to be...

5:24a predictability of your response to training.

5:28However, once we get into those super physiological levels and we're taking that exogenous hormone,

5:34then yes, we are going to develop levels of muscularity that wouldn't necessarily be possible.

5:40You said several things very interesting.

5:44If I understood correctly, if a male is somewhere in the reference range, so typically

5:49I believe that's somewhere between 300 nanograms per deciliter and 900 nanograms per deciliter, maybe

5:54in some countries it goes up to 1 ,200, but in any case, that a

5:58male with 400 nanograms per deciliter testosterone versus 600, it's not as if the male

6:04with 600 can make that much more muscle growth.

6:09And the same is true for women?

6:11That's right. So as long as you're within that broad normal range, and of course

6:16what's normal for you differs from what's normal for someone else.

6:21So if there are changes that might impact you because now you're below what is

6:30your normal, then that can manifest in a variety of ways.

6:35But there isn't this clear kind of linear relationship where we would say, oh, let's

6:41measure your testosterone. You are going to be a hard gainer or you're going to

6:46put on mass really easily.

6:48If we were to just look at people who are not chemically augmented in any

6:52way, not know their testosterone in any way, and here I'm referring to women specifically,

6:57how much individual variation is there or what's known about the individual variation among women

7:02in terms of the amount of potential to grow muscle and strength?

7:07Is it true that some women have a much greater potential to build muscle mass

7:12that's independent of their testosterone levels?

7:15I'd say yes, it's independent of the testosterone levels, but we're going to start with

7:20different baselines and then it depends on the stimulus that you are using for growth.

7:28And some people are adapting to that growth stimulus to a greater extent than others,

7:36but part of that is effective, consistent, progressive training, and then part of it is

7:43arguably some genetic factors. But when we even look at the molecular level, say fiber

7:48-type differences, we see adaptation in both sexes that is quite dramatic.

7:55And that tells us that both men and women have the potential for large adaptations

8:02in either direction, whether we're saying, you know, to endurance -type training or resistance -type

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10:45I want to put aside the use of exogenous testosterone therapy.

10:51We can return to that a little bit later because it seems to be a

10:54popular theme in women's health circles now, especially in the perimenopause, excuse me, a menopause

10:59conversation. But it's well known from studies, I believe that were exclusively carried out in

11:06men, that training a certain way, sprints, resistance training, and we talk about exactly how,

11:13can increase circulating testosterone in meaningful ways that can feed back on psychology and can

11:19feed back on growth and strength development, et cetera.

11:22Have the same studies been carried out in women?

11:24In other words, if a woman lifts weights in a certain manner for 45 minutes

11:29or 60 minutes, do we expect a big surge in her circulating levels of testosterone?

11:35Well, the circulating levels are already quite low.

11:39And one of the issues here is that the way testosterone has been measured in

11:44women for a very long time is such that the assays are not capable of

11:50detecting some of these normal low levels.

11:54So we know a lot less about those lower kind of circulating levels of testosterone

11:59in women than I think people acknowledge.

12:04But more importantly, that acute response to exercise, that increase in post -exercise testosterone, growth

12:14hormone, et cetera, people used to think that was the driver of hypertrophy.

12:19And so there were all of these training styles to sort of maximize that response.

12:25And so people would promote high rep training or supersets.

12:30And they'd say, oh, you know, this is going to really maximize that response.

12:33But what we know now is that response, although acutely, it's not the driver of

12:42growth long term. And so it doesn't really make sense to chase that short term

12:48response because it's not predictive of a longer term adaptation.

12:53Until fairly recently, women doing resistance training, especially heavy for them, you know, somewhere between

13:0270 and 90 percent of a one rep max or even a one rep max.

13:06So heavy for them was scary for a lot of women.

13:10Women in my family and they're like, I don't want to lift weights.

13:12I don't want to I don't want to get too big.

13:14This is, you know, was a common statement.

13:16What do you think changed?

13:18I think part of it was the introduction of the bikini category in competitive bodybuilding

13:25because that was a level of muscularity that people didn't look at and say, oh,

13:30that's bulky. That was, oh, she looks good in a bikini.

13:34And so people wanted to look like that, realized that they needed to lift weights

13:40to do it. And it kind of opened up a door for resistance training being

13:45more feminine. I think that in combination with the introduction of more group fitness that

13:52had resistance training components, CrossFit, which a lot of women were drawn to.

13:57I think all of that has made women feel more empowered to lift weights and

14:04less fearful of the results.

14:07Although I think there is still a sentiment in some circles that lifting weights or

14:13lifting too heavy is going to make you huge instead of, you know, quote unquote

14:17toned. Also, if there are all of these, where are all of these bulky women?

14:23When do you walk, how often do you walk down the street and see an

14:26incredibly jacked woman? It's very, very rare.

14:29And so clearly no one is getting huge by accident.

14:33You're not getting extremely muscular without working really, really hard and often incorporating some pharmacological

14:41help. For a woman who's not currently doing resistance training, maybe we could talk to

14:48her for a second. At what age is too early for a woman to do

14:55resistance training? What does the data say?

14:59I think it's a cultural stereotype that at least in high school, the girls didn't

15:05belong in the weight room.

15:06That was certainly my experience growing up.

15:08Now I think that's shifting.

15:10And so it's not that it's unsafe.

15:12It's just that it wasn't done.

15:14And so people weren't teaching teenage girls how to lift weights.

15:18And there's a lot of advantages to that, especially if you're playing sports, because we

15:22have female athletes who are teenagers and then going into college and continuing to play

15:27their sports. And there can be not only a performance improvement, but also an injury

15:33reduction from doing some resistance training along with your sports specific training.

15:38So I think it's certainly valuable to start younger, also from a habit building perspective.

15:47Because I know if you're somebody who has gone decades without ever doing a lot

15:53of structured exercise or without ever lifting weights, it can feel kind of daunting and

15:57intimidating to learn the new skill.

16:00That said, we know that you can gain muscle anytime, even if you start at

16:0770. So it's not that it's ever too late to start.

16:11But if we start earlier, we are building muscle in the way that you're building.

16:19So it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not

16:19that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not that it's not

16:19that savings account or a retirement account.

16:21Because if we're not lifting weights and if we're not physically active, then we do

16:26start to lose muscle with age.

16:28And later in life, it does become a problem.

16:31I wonder if resistance training should be taught earlier.

16:35It doesn't sound like it should be avoided for young girls.

16:38Is that correct? Yeah. I mean, I think if we see a young kid doing

16:42a barbell squat, there's something kind of jarring about that.

16:45But think about all the kids we see all the time, you know, on the

16:49monkey bars, essentially doing pull -ups or muscle -ups and developing a lot of upper

16:54body strength. And certainly young gymnasts have been doing that for a very long time.

17:00So it's not that there isn't any sort of resistance training going around or happening

17:08in childhood. It's just not the structured training that we think when we talk about

17:13lifting weights. That's an excellent point.

17:16And it makes me realize that probably early in development, boys and girls are doing

17:20resistance training at the level of pull -ups and monkey bars and all the rest

17:23to the same extent. Maybe even the girls a bit more, if the boys are

17:28all playing video games or like, I don't know, who knows.

17:31But then there's a drop -off because of this, what really is just a cultural

17:35stereotype that boys are going to go to the gym and girls aren't, although that

17:40seems to be changing. Okay.

17:43Well, that's a bit of the sociology around resistance training in young girls.

17:46What about a woman in her, you know, teens, 20s, 30s, or older, who's just

17:53never done formal resistance training, perhaps has done other forms of exercise.

17:58How should she think about starting resistance training?

18:02We could break this down into days per week, sets and reps, et cetera, but

18:06what's the sort of general contour of a really good starter program for a woman

18:11at essentially any age? Historically, I think women have been told that exercise is for

18:18weight loss. And so it's really important that we start to shift that narrative because

18:24resistance training isn't about being smaller.

18:27It's not about the number on the scale.

18:29So we want to think about getting bigger, about growing muscle.

18:34And in order to do that, we need to challenge the muscle in a way

18:39that is a sufficient stimulus for growth.

18:43So if we think about a full body training program, we want to target all

18:48of the major muscle groups and a challenging load will differ depending on the exercise

18:53and the muscle groups that we're targeting.

18:56And we can train in low, moderate, or high rep ranges, but we need to

19:02train close enough to failure.

19:05Meaning if we can only do 10 and not an 11th, that's failure.

19:10So we can stop at maybe eight or nine and that's an appropriate stimulus.

19:16But if we finish that set of 10 and we could easily do another 10,

19:21then that load is too light.

19:22So making sure that we are doing a full body training program, targeting all the

19:28major muscle groups, that we're using appropriate loads, and we're progressing over time.

19:33Because what you'll be able to do, whether it's load or number of repetitions, this

19:38month will change next month and the month after.

19:40You mentioned full body program.

19:43Does the entire body have to be trained each session?

19:46Or could somebody use a so -called split, like, you know, chest and back one

19:51day, rest, legs the next day, rest, shoulders and arms, calves, some ab work, stretch,

19:57repeat, that sort of thing?

19:59If you're only going to train two or three times a week, I think it's

20:03better to do a full body session because you're hitting all those major muscle groups

20:10at an appropriate number of times per week.

20:13If you want to train more often than that, it does make sense to split

20:17it up. So if you're training four days per week, I would do, you know,

20:20maybe upper body, lower body, upper body, lower body.

20:22If you're training five days or six days per week, then we might split it

20:26up even more the way that you suggested.

20:28And there are also options depending on your personal goals.

20:33And so if we're thinking about muscle growth for overall health, then maybe we're not

20:38doing as many exercises like accessory type exercises.

20:42But if we're thinking about changing the physique with resistance training, then we might tailor

20:50the program to your goals and preferences and work a little bit more on those

20:55muscle groups that are important to you.

20:57For sake of example, then I'll just try and build a structure around what you're

21:01saying. Let's say a woman decides to do a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, whole body workout

21:06each time, take the weekends off.

21:08Obviously the days that it starts could shift.

21:11But due to schedule or other things, sometimes it's a Monday, Friday.

21:15Sometimes it's a Monday, Wednesday.

21:16Sometimes they hit Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

21:18Seems like a reasonable framework.

21:21Would you suggest training the entire body all three or in some cases two days

21:27per week using the same exercises to target the same muscle groups each time?

21:31Meaning if she squats on Monday for her quads and of course also for other

21:38muscle groups, you know, hamstrings and glutes and lower back are going to get hit

21:41too. But should she squat again on Wednesday and Friday or do you recommend varying

21:44the movement by what? per muscle group?

21:48It's an option to do either.

21:51I think there's an element of personal preference.

21:55If you're working on improving squat strength, then you probably do want to squat more

22:00than once per week because practicing the movement is important.

22:05But if we're talking about muscle growth, then we have a lot of options.

22:09And so you can do barbell work, you can do machine work, you can do

22:12dumbbells. And we can break it up if you wanted more variety by saying, okay,

22:17Monday, your lower body exercises are going to be a squat.

22:23And on Wednesday, we'll do a good morning and we'll work more of the posterior

22:28chain or Friday, maybe we'll do more of a glute dominant exercise and we'll do

22:33some hip thrusts. And so I think it depends how many exercises you're doing in

22:38a session, and then how long the workout's going to be before we decide how

22:43we're going to split that up.

22:45And so you could do this, a more quad dominant movement, like a squat, a

22:52lunge, a leg press, a step up, and also do more of a glute hamstring

22:57dominant movement, like a good morning or a stiff like deadlift and do both in

23:02the same session. Or you could split those up and have more of a quad

23:07dominant day and a more hamstring glute dominant day.

23:10Got it. I'm going to drill down a little bit more into specifics because I

23:15anticipate that's what people will want.

23:17And it's probably the first time we've had somebody so well qualified to get into

23:23these specifics about resistance training on this podcast, specifically for women, although you're going to

23:27tell us later that the words specifically for women is dangerous language.

23:31We'll get back to that.

23:33Okay. So let's assume two or three days per week, whole body workouts.

23:37One could vary or keep the exercises per muscle group the same.

23:42How many work sets after a sufficient warmup?

23:46And when I think of warmup, I'll take the liberty here and you can tell

23:50me where I'm wrong. I think, okay, a light set to kind of remind yourself

23:53what the mechanics are, get some blood flow going, see if anything feels like it

23:57might need another light warmup set and just kind of like a stretching out.

24:00Then a moderate set, like 50 % of your one rep max, something where you

24:04could do 10 to 15 reps, but maybe you do seven or eight, or maybe

24:08even a little heavier. And then move to the work set, the work set that's

24:13taken within two failure or within a rep or two just shy of failure.

24:17How many work sets after a sufficient warmup for that muscle group?

24:22At least two. I prefer three.

24:26You could do four. Beyond that is probably overkill.

24:30And that's assuming one exercise for that muscle group for the entire workout.

24:35So for three to four sets per muscle group per workout, each muscle two to

24:42three times per week. With the understanding that many exercises work more than one muscle

24:46group. So if I'm doing a leg extension, then I know I'm specifically working the

24:51quads, right? But if I'm doing a leg press or a squat, then yes, I'm

24:55working the quads, but I'm also working the glutes.

24:57And you can kind of say, well, is that a half a set for the

25:00glutes? Is that a full set for the glutes?

25:02And same thing if we're doing a bench press.

25:04Yes, you're working your chest, you're working your delts, you're also working your triceps.

25:08So is that a full set for the triceps?

25:11Or is it just a tricep pushdown that I'm going to consider a set for

25:15the triceps? It gets a little bit murky when we think about exercises that work

25:20multiple muscle groups. But I think if we focus on those compound movements, the bench

25:27press, the squats, the deadlifts, then we should think in that range that we're doing

25:33at least two, preferably three, but beyond four, probably unnecessary.

25:40Well, at three workouts per week, that's getting anywhere from nine to 12 sets for

25:45the quads. That's a fair amount of work.

25:47If one were to collapse all of that into a single workout, that's a lot

25:51of quad work. What sort of rest intervals between sets?

25:54I prefer auto regulation for rest.

25:58I think if you have strength specific goals, meaning you're really working on a one

26:04rep max deadlift, let's say, in order to repeat that type of performance, you will

26:11need longer rest, maybe four minutes, five minutes, it depends, right?

26:17But for an average gym session, you know, using some machines or using some dumbbells,

26:25then two minutes is probably fine for most people.

26:29And once you've been training for a while, you'll know when you're ready.

26:34But if it makes you feel better to set the timer, then I'd say two

26:39minutes for most exercises, maybe three minutes for something like a squat or deadlift.

26:45Is there anything of value that can be done during the rest period other than

26:49rest and change the weight, of course?

26:51If you want to maximize time efficiency, then we might consider agonist antagonist supersets.

26:58So when you look at somebody doing a bench press or chest press, and then

27:02instead of resting for the two to three minutes and then doing the next set,

27:07they go and they do a row.

27:08And so you're going back and forth and you're, you're pairing a push and a

27:12pull. And that does It doesn't seem to interfere with adaptation or even acute performance

27:21the same way it would if you didn't rest in between your straight sets of

27:25bench press. So that can be a really viable way to train, especially if you

27:31are crunched for time. So maybe a bench press or some other press type movement,

27:36dumbbell incline presses, whatever she selects, and then move immediately from there to a pull

27:43down. Sure. And then wait out the remainder of the rest interval and then do

27:47another superset, that sort of arrangement?

27:49Yep. Supersetting or doing an exercise that normally you would rest two or three minutes

27:54between and instead resting a minute, then going and doing the antagonistic muscle and back

27:59also prevents getting lost in your phone because you're on task.

28:04You know, it's amazing how much longer workouts get when one starts texting or paying

28:08attention to other things. And the switching back of focus from exercise to phone is,

28:13I don't know. I don't know any good studies on this, but it can't be

28:17healthy. Yeah. There are also studies about stretching in between or doing some sort of

28:24active recovery type work in between.

28:27We don't have enough data to say that's necessarily beneficial.

28:31But I think if people are thinking, I don't want to sit and rest and

28:36do nothing, then the superset or even a circuit type of structure is probably a

28:42better way to go. What about pushing past failure, some, you know, assisted reps, a

28:47.k .a. forced reps done in reasonably good form so injury isn't a risk, drop

28:52sets where you immediately lower the weight and get a few more reps after failure.

28:56Are you a fan of these so -called intensity techniques?

29:00I think forced reps we're not getting much benefit from other than it can be

29:07fun if you're working with a training partner.

29:09Drop sets are a good kind of finisher because they can, especially if you're doing

29:16a cable type exercise, I'm not going to say drop sets are better than straight

29:23sets. But it is a way to add some kind of variety into especially the

29:29last set of a workout or if you're doing exercises that are just more conducive

29:37to drop sets like a bicep curl or a leg extension or something that's really

29:42easy to immediately drop the weight and go to the next.

29:46So it's not better, but it's certainly a tool and it fits into that time

29:53efficient strategy. For the longest time, I thought time under tension and moving the weight

29:59really slow was a value.

30:01I know that everyone should control the weight so that you don't get injured, no,

30:04you know, dropping the weight and swinging it back up and this kind of thing.

30:07But assuming that the weight is under control, meaning momentum isn't doing most of the

30:12work, you're being careful to protect your form and posture, et cetera, is there a

30:17best rate of movement for the resistance?

30:19Should we emphasize the lowering phase, et cetera?

30:23There's always going to be a harder part of the movement and an easier part

30:28of the movement. So we should move the weight as quickly as we can during

30:35that difficult phase and then control on the easier phase.

30:41But trying to intentionally slow down either direction is not particularly advantageous, especially if we

30:49think about like standing up from a squat.

30:53We want to stand up from the bottom of the squat as quickly as we

30:55can under load. If we have a lot of load, we're not going to stand

31:00up super fast, but we should be thinking, stand up.

31:02Because if we don't, we're less likely to be able to complete that repetition.

31:07I think this is a really important point that most non -muscle physiologists, exercise physiologists

31:13have not been trained on, but I'm hearing more about this these days, that trying

31:17to move the weight as fast as one can under control against resistance should be

31:23the mindset inside of the set.

31:25Is that correct? I want to make sure I'm not contorting your words at all.

31:28That's right. And when you think about doing a set of 10, right, by the

31:33time you get to 7, 8, 9, the weight is already moving more slowly.

31:38You're starting to grind it out because it's getting more and more challenging.

31:41And so if you are using a load that is appropriate, then the time it

31:50takes for you to complete that rep will inevitably get a little bit longer, but

31:55that's not something you're doing intentionally.

31:58Got it. I'm getting really granular here, but I get asked these questions all the

32:02time. And as it relates to women's training specifically, you'd be amazed that people are

32:07coming to me for that, but almost certainly so that I could ask you.

32:11Partial repetitions and isometric holds, do they have any value?

32:15The problem with doing partial repetitions or even playing with tempo is that it's really

32:22difficult to replicate consistently. And so I mentioned earlier that we want to progress over

32:29time. And if we're standardizing the range of motion and we're standardizing the exercise and

32:38we're standardizing the tempo, then it's easy to say, okay.

32:42I'm using two and a half more pounds this week.

32:46I've progressed. If we're playing around with all of these variables and then we're trying

32:52to add load, it starts to get a little tricky because you're saying, I know

32:57I'm using more load, but am I cutting the range of motion short in order

33:02to lift more? Am I speeding up the reps in order to lift more?

33:09So we want to introduce fewer variables to make sure that we are progressing, whether

33:16it's a rep or load.

33:20Repetition ranges. Earlier you said getting close to failure or going to failure is the

33:26critical component, but within a pretty broad range.

33:30Do you think it's necessary to limit oneself to certain repetition ranges on the order

33:37of a workout, the week, the month, a phase of the year?

33:42Are repetition ranges between, you know, three and five compatible with repetition ranges for the,

33:48you know, other muscle groups are the same in the same week of 10 to

33:5115? I mean, I think there's a lot of kind of vagueness around this for

33:58women and for men. You know, you hear all low reps get you strong, but

34:02don't grow muscle. And then here, higher reps, as long as you go to failure,

34:05they'll grow muscle. And that's all fine and good, but no one really has ever

34:10said clearly how to vary this stuff in a way that allows for the best

34:14progress. And I realize that's a lot to ask you to tackle in one answer,

34:20but you have the mic.

34:22What are your thoughts on repetition ranges and how to vary them and when?

34:26We used to think, and they used to teach all the personal trainers this, there

34:30was a strength endurance continuum such that you're doing one to five reps and you're

34:36building strength. And then you're doing something kind of moderate range up to 12 and

34:41that's hypertrophy. And then beyond that, 12 to 20, that's in muscular endurance.

34:46And our understanding of that has evolved.

34:49Certainly, if you're training for maximal strength, i .e.

34:53a one rep max, then you need to be training in those lower rep ranges

34:59because that is a sports specific training.

35:03And so it's not that if you do sets of 10, your one rep max

35:06won't get stronger. It will.

35:09But to maximize your one rep max, then we need to do some very high

35:15load, very low rep training.

35:17If the goal is hypertrophy, we have way more flexibility because we do see similar

35:25growth, whether you're training in those high load, low rep ranges or the lower load,

35:32high rep ranges and anything in between, provided that we train close enough to failure.

35:38However, we need to think about overall volume because that's very important for growth.

35:44So if we're doing sets of three, we're going to need to do a lot

35:49of sets of three to accomplish the same overall volume that we would get by

35:56doing sets of eight or 10.

35:57That last point, I'm so grateful you said that.

36:00I used to hear the late Charles Polquin say this, that if you're going to

36:03use higher repetitions, let's say between eight and 15, which for me seems like high

36:08repetitions, you can, I don't want to say get away with, but you could do

36:13two or three sets per muscle group or per exercise and maybe two exercises for

36:18a muscle group. Whereas if you're going to train in the three to six rep

36:21range, you might need to do eight sets of, and because typically one rests longer

36:26in between sets when with heavier loads, those are two very different workouts.

36:31One is actually much more efficient than the other, even though it gets you something

36:36slightly different. I'm sure people are wondering, and I know you don't want to bias

36:40people's choices, but do you have a favorite repetition range for you, for your level

36:45of experience these days? I mean, what do you typically select?

36:49I typically do something in the six to 12, depending on the exercise.

36:55But I think some exercises are fun to do 15 reps of, and some are

37:04not. So I think if you're doing something like face pulls for your rear delts

37:10or leg extensions, I would never say, yeah, do a set of three.

37:13But if you're doing squats, I don't want to do a set of 20 squats

37:18ever. And most people don't.

37:21So I think we can, for most people, say, all right, somewhere in the kind

37:29of six to 12 -ish is a good sweet spot.

37:32If you're new, I'd say go eight to 12 because we want to get really

37:38comfortable with the movement pattern.

37:41And so if you're only doing sets of four or sets of five, then you're

37:45not repeating the movement enough to get really proficient with the technique.

37:49So I'd love for those people to start in a moderate rep range.

37:53I think also if you go beyond that, then there's more of a chance of

37:59kind of form failure and injury risk.

38:04And so we want to be really proficient in the moderate rep range before we

38:09start exploring. those lower or higher rep ranges.

38:12Do you think it's valuable for women to vary the repetition or men to vary

38:18the repetition ranges of like week by week?

38:21Like, okay, this week I'm going to train six to 10 reps on everything, or

38:25I'm going to go three to five reps on everything for three weeks.

38:30Then I'm going to switch to six to eight for three weeks.

38:32And then I'm going to go, you know, 10 to 15 for three weeks and

38:36then repeat. Is there any known value for hypertrophy and strength training to doing it,

38:42sticking with one thing and then systematically varying every say three weeks?

38:46You can do it that way.

38:48I prefer to combine it into the week.

38:52So if let's say we're doing squats twice a week, then let's do a lower

38:59rep set day and a moderate rep set day.

39:04And you can do that for all of your kind of main compound lifts.

39:09And that adds some variety, but also means you have the data to make sure

39:15that you're progressing in each of those rep ranges kind of simultaneously.

39:20Whereas if we were to do sets of six for three weeks and then move

39:27to sets of 12, then I don't really have that anchor point for, am I

39:33making progress? Because now I'm doing that lift in another rep range.

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40:29A moment ago, you said something, and I'm so grateful that you said this because

40:33I don't think it's ever been communicated as clearly as you did, and I would

40:37just want to double click on it.

40:40There's this assumption that heavier sets, and I'm not referring to one to three reps.

40:46I mean, let's say in the five to eight repetition range, final repetitions close to

40:51failure or failure, that somehow they are more dangerous than high repetition sets.

40:57In my experience, high repetitions from 15 to 25, especially on compound movements, get people

41:06hurt at least as often as the heavy stuff.

41:09And I think it's because it's, I'm guessing here, but that it's hard to concentrate

41:14and generate perfect form on a very high repetition set.

41:19And compound movements are where you can get hurt.

41:21You can get hurt on isolation movements, but multi -joint movements done for 20 reps,

41:27I mean, unless you're really locked in mentally, that's often where people get injured is

41:33my observation. Yeah, I think it's an equal opportunity game.

41:38We really need to make sure that form is dialed in and that you have

41:45a spotter or a training partner, if appropriate, depending on the lift that you're doing.

41:50Because if you're doing high rep deadlifts, for example, you do have more opportunities to

41:59lift the weight in such a way that you just tweak something.

42:04And sometimes if people are doing those lower rep heavier sets, they're more likely to

42:10kind of take that moment, reset, lock in, and then perform the next rep.

42:15And it's a bit easier to rush the set and not kind of force yourself

42:23to reset and focus on those form cues when you're using a load that doesn't

42:29require you to do so.

42:31Thank you. Yes, recently there was a pretty avid debate online about heavy weights versus

42:38not heavy weights, especially for older folks.

42:41And since now I'm 50, I place myself in that category.

42:43I'm a big fan of low repetitions, but not three or less.

42:49But let's just say some of my peers feel that that's super dangerous not to

42:53recommend, you know, five to eight repetition range.

42:56It could be that some people are just better at, quote unquote, locking everything in

43:01and getting really focused and doing a proper set when there's fewer repetitions.

43:05And some people might be great.

43:08I realize that doing 20 repetitions of stiff -legged deadlifts and every repetition is just

43:13beautiful. But isn't there the idea that some of the smaller supporting muscles can fatigue

43:19as a set goes on and make one susceptible to injury?

43:23Is that, or is that just gym, is that just like jock science?

43:27No matter what, we need to make sure that we're appropriately warmed up and that

43:33we're using proper technique. So if you try to go do a...

43:38unrep max or a set of three and you're not properly warmed up, I'm concerned.

43:42Sure. But assuming all else is equal, then depending on the exercise, we also have

43:48to think of overall systemic fatigue, even fatigue on the cardiovascular system.

43:56If you're doing 30 squats, you might be out of breath before your legs give

44:01out. And that can introduce another mental challenge to the set.

44:06Excellent point. I hadn't considered that.

44:08I also don't enjoy 20 repetition squats.

44:12Although on the belt squat, I'm finding some, let's just say some personal growth through

44:17them, mental personal growth. It's a whole different thing to do high repetition leg work.

44:22And it is very cardiovascular.

44:24Speaking of which, I think most people nowadays, men and women, understand that cardiovascular exercise

44:31is important as well. And I realized that term pisses off the endurance athletes because

44:35what is cardiovascular exercise? I'm talking about something that you can repeat for six minutes

44:40or more continuously, gets heart rate elevated and so on.

44:45I think most people think of this as cardio.

44:48How do you recommend scheduling cardio with the two or three day per week resistance

44:54training? Does it matter if somebody does it before or after their weight training on

45:00a given day? Can they do it on the same day?

45:03Would they be better off doing it on other days?

45:05What are the guidelines? So the concept of kind of the interference effect or issues

45:12with concurrent training come from the idea that you have both endurance training goals and

45:20resistance training goals and that if you perform those too close together, that the endurance

45:27training might blunt some of that hypertrophic adaptation.

45:32We see that could be true if you're doing very high volume work and you're

45:39stacking it very close together.

45:42So assuming your hypertrophy or strength is the goal, then we would want to perform

45:49that first. And if possible, separate them by, you know, at least several hours.

45:55But we really don't run into true interference effect type results unless we're doing tons

46:05of training and, you know, you're doing your sprints before you do your leg workout.

46:10I would avoid that. I think we also need to think about whether we have

46:15endurance training goals or we're just trying to be fit for health.

46:20Most people listening to this probably would like to get stronger, probably would like to

46:26add muscle to specific muscles and maybe have it in mind, and we'll get here

46:30in a moment, to not deliberately not add muscle to other muscles and to be

46:38what they consider lean enough and that want to be fit.

46:42I always think of the general life requirements.

46:44Like you want to be able to carry your suitcase or bag, and if you

46:47have to run for the plane, that you can do it without coughing up a

46:50lung. Pick things up and not get injured.

46:52Sprint if you need to.

46:53Play a game of frisbee or soccer or volleyball, a pickup game at the picnic

46:58or something. Go for a hike, maybe with a kid on your back, maybe with

47:01a backpack if you don't have kids.

47:03I think there's sort of like just ability to go out on a Sunday and

47:06take a long hike with a pack without having to train for it.

47:09The ability to sprint for the plane without dying when you arrive there.

47:14These kinds of things to me are the real life metrics.

47:18I feel like that's what most people want.

47:20And then of course, some people want to run marathons and be power lifters and,

47:23you know, Alex Honnold just, you know, scaled a tower in Taipei without any rope.

47:31So, you know, there's a huge range.

47:33But I think what I described, I think is where most of us are at.

47:36What do you think most women are at?

47:39Lifting weights is so important because we don't have a lifestyle, fun, equivalent activity.

47:48But I don't think we all need to be going for a jog or spending

47:54an hour on the elliptical if we prefer playing tennis or going for bike rides

47:59with friends or going for hikes or something that is physically active and enjoyable and

48:08that we will be more likely to do consistently.

48:11So there is an element of that that can be really freeing for people because

48:16they think, oh, well, then I don't need to worry about adding these structured cardio

48:22sessions in my week. I'm just going to do those outdoor physical activities with friends

48:29that I'm enjoying and also benefiting from.

48:33What are the data on walking?

48:35I've heard 7 ,000 steps or so per day is a good number to shoot

48:40for. I heard that the 10 ,000 number was just kind of thrown out there

48:43the same way that eight hours of intermittent fasting was just kind of thrown out

48:46there. We'll get back to that.

48:47How important and helpful is walking for women in particular?

48:52I like to think of walking as something you can do that is not structured

48:57exercise. And so we're not thinking about meeting a step count necessarily.

49:05You can do that, but people who focus on something like step counts usually do

49:10so for a few months and then stop.

49:13Because being kind of obsessive about tracking that metric gets a little old.

49:18And it's important to think not only about hitting one target, whether it's, you know,

49:24minutes of exercise per week or step count or heart rate goal, but what are

49:28we doing for the other hours in the day?

49:31So I think somebody who isn't active at all, going from doing very few steps

49:39to getting it up to 4 ,000, 5 ,000, 6 ,000 steps, yes, we're going

49:43to see a huge benefit.

49:44But if you're somebody who is physically active in a variety of ways and you

49:50are moving throughout the day, not necessarily focusing purely on steps, then that metric of

49:59step count is a little bit less useful because we are getting in that overall

50:06activity that is going to be beneficial for health.

50:08So what I'm hearing is if a woman is in the gym two or three

50:12days per week, lifting the way that you described, and has some outdoor or indoor

50:18social sport type activities that she enjoys, there's no need to specifically add cardio unless

50:26there's an endurance goal or a sprint competition goal.

50:29Is that right? Yeah, and I think a lot of people are adding cardio for

50:36weight loss goals, and that is a bit of a fool's errand because the fat

50:42loss that we will get from just adding exercise is pretty disappointing relative to the

50:48fat loss that we will see when we adjust our nutrition.

50:52What about getting up toward max heart rate for sake of the dreaded VO2 max?

50:58No, I don't say dreaded.

50:59I mean, I just think it's funny because, you know, five years ago no one

51:01was talking about heart rate variability and VO2 max.

51:04I mean, again, I'm not trying to inject male fitness or my routine into it,

51:08but by virtue of what I've learned in the course of the podcast and also

51:12what I enjoy, I make it a point to get on the Airdyne bike or

51:15some other thing I can do at max effort or close to it without getting

51:19injured and do, you know, 30 -second sprint, 30 -second rest, 30 -second sprint for

51:25at least once a week, ideally twice.

51:27I'm assuming, and you tell me, you have the credentials here, I'm assuming that by

51:33getting my heart rate way, way up for a couple minutes each week that I'm

51:36doing myself some benefit separate from my resistance training.

51:41Is that true or is it – because I see – I mean, I'm not

51:45a calorie counter, kind of an intuitive sense of what I need, but I see,

51:50you know, at the end of those workouts, it says I burned 100 calories, which

51:53is, you know, I – you know, I walk – I eat 100 calories of

51:57blueberries in one pass by the blueberry basket.

52:00So I'm not trying to do it for caloric burn's sake.

52:04Yeah, the value of the really high -intensity stuff is time efficiency.

52:09So if we look at those adaptations to endurance exercise or if we're going to

52:16just say cardio broadly, then you can get those by doing more long -form moderate

52:22intensity. You can also get those by doing higher intensity for shorter amounts of time.

52:29So it's not that it's magic in terms of the adaptation, but you're able to

52:37get more bang for your buck because you're doing that higher intensity and you don't

52:41need to do it for quite as long.

52:43So let's talk about the somewhat barbed wire topic these days about variations in hormones

52:51as they relate to the menstrual cycle and training requirements.

52:56There's a lot of assumptions about this.

52:58There's a lot of conjecture.

52:59And I do believe there's also a lot of outright fabrication, not because anyone necessarily

53:05wants to mislead, but I don't think anyone has spent as much time with the

53:10data on this as you have.

53:13So should women train differently depending on where they are in their menstrual cycle?

53:18The short answer is no.

53:21The conversation around the menstrual cycle is good.

53:26I think it's good that we're talking about it.

53:28It's good that people feel comfortable discussing it with their coach.

53:32The unfortunate shift of because you have a menstrual cycle and because hormones are fluctuating,

53:39you need to change how you are exercising is way too simplistic.

53:46And doesn't align with the data that we have.

53:51So instead of worrying about whether you're in this phase or that phase or whether

53:56estradiol is high or low, I would really focus on how you feel.

54:01Train hard. Train consistently. Train progressively.

54:05If at some point in your cycle you experience menstrual symptoms or fatigue or a

54:13lack of motivation that you relate to menstruation, then having an option to skip a

54:21workout or adjust the exercises that you're doing for that workout or do another form

54:26of exercise that day is completely fine.

54:29I'm not saying you have to grind it out, push through, but...

54:33You are not less capable that day because you have your menstrual period or because

54:40the hormone profile has shifted in one direction or another.

54:43There's a broader conversation around this, I think, about when to push through internal resistance,

54:50either just kind of general malaise, like one doesn't feel well or didn't sleep well,

54:55whether or not one is feeling run down.

54:57Maybe we can kind of tuck that into this conversation about ways to vary training

55:04or not vary training according to phase of the menstrual cycle.

55:07Let's say somebody is not feeling as rested as they normally do or would like

55:12to. And I say that because people assume you need eight hours of sleep, right?

55:17One might need eight. They might need ten.

55:19I'm fine on six and a half to seven.

55:21I prefer eight. But actually, six and a half to seven, I'm good.

55:26Five, that's a whole other issue.

55:28So should women push through a day of a workout if they got maybe an

55:36hour or two less than their normal ration of sleep that they need?

55:39Or are they putting themselves in some sort of danger if they do that?

55:43There's no danger. You might feel worse.

55:46But subjective measures of performance are different often from objective measures of performance.

55:55And that goes for the menstrual cycle, symptoms, and other factors as well.

56:01So you might go in and deadlift the same weight as last week.

56:05And you'd say, wow, this feels really heavy.

56:08Or the weight's moving really slow this morning.

56:11But you're still lifting it.

56:12So objectively, the performance was the same.

56:15It's just your experience of what it felt like differs.

56:21It feels harder today. To your point, that can be the case for a variety

56:25of reasons. We can be underslept or we are jet lagged or we're stressed about

56:33something work -related and feeling distracted.

56:36There's a lot of reasons why we don't have a 10 out of 10 workout

56:41every single time we go to the gym.

56:42So I think there's an argument to be made to, yeah, push forward, just do

56:49it anyway. Even a subpar workout is better than no workout at all.

56:54In your experience and observation, do you think that women who take up resistance training

57:01enjoy it? On average, do they tend to enjoy it?

57:05Or do they tend to enjoy the feeling afterwards?

57:09How do you feel about resistance training?

57:11I think it's particularly powerful for women because, and I alluded to this earlier, there's

57:17a history of marketing ineffective programs to women or encouraging them to constantly switch it

57:25up. Try this new group fitness class or try this new at -home video workout.

57:30And they never really see the results that they are hoping to see.

57:35And so you're just program hopping and disappointed and feeling like, I'm putting in all

57:40this work. I'm doing the thing and I'm not seeing results.

57:43When you stick to a good resistance training program for long enough, not only do

57:49you start to see results in the way that your body looks, because muscle growth

57:54can change your body composition and can change your physique, but you also have this

58:00empowering feeling of progression over time.

58:04I can get stronger. I can do more.

58:06And that keeps you coming back.

58:08It's really motivating. So I think that can be really powerful that you feel like

58:13you're getting something out of what you're putting in and you're more likely to stick

58:17to it long -term. For anyone, but since we're talking mainly about women's resistance training

58:24today, do you think there's value to spending two or three weeks, maybe less, maybe

58:31more, just learning movements properly before getting into the whole business of progressive overload?

58:37Yes, because the problem is you start to see, oh, I can do more than

58:42I did last week. And then you think, oh, well, this is linear, right?

58:47And so you think I can add 10 pounds every week forever.

58:51It doesn't work like that.

58:52So inevitably you end up training or many of us have trained in such a

58:59way that we injured something, tweaked something, form failed because we got so focused on

59:06just lifting more weight, lifting more weight, lifting more weight.

59:09So I agree that a slower progression could be better, but that's also the power

59:17of just trying to add another rep instead of trying to add weight week in

59:21and week out. We're all told we just kind of like need to exercise, and

59:25there's examples of how to do movements, but it'd be wonderful if there was kind

59:29of like getting the basics.

59:31Like a sprinter doesn't just go sprint.

59:32They learn how to do all these drills and move into it.

59:36And some of these things are complex, and it's not just about avoiding injury.

59:39It's about getting the most out of the exercise over time.

59:44That's kind of how I'm thinking about this.

59:45I think it's also making sure that you are using proper technique and full range

59:51of motion because that's one of the other things that is often the first to

59:55go when we really try to load up and load up and load up.

59:57And you see this with people squatting and benching all the time.

1:00:01And they're just adding another plate, but then cutting the range of motion short to

1:00:05accommodate that additional load. And so that's not really progressive overload because you changed your

1:00:11range of motion. So I think especially if a lift is technically demanding, something like

1:00:18a hinge, you know, deadlift, good morning.

1:00:21For a lot of people who've never done that movement pattern, it can be really

1:00:25difficult to just develop that kinesthetic awareness.

1:00:29Like where am I in space?

1:00:31Am I bending my knees too much or not enough?

1:00:34Am I starting to round my upper back?

1:00:37And when you can really understand the proper form, then you know how to load

1:00:45it. If a woman just feels lousy at one particular phase of her cycle, and

1:00:51that's a consistent month -to -month thing for her, and she doesn't want to train

1:00:55during that time, it sounded like there's no issue with that, that you're not suggesting

1:01:01that women push through that necessarily, that they were on the West Coast, that they

1:01:07honor their feelings is how people speak out here, that they honor their feelings as

1:01:12opposed to push against the, you know, the sense like this is just a tough

1:01:18time to do this. But you're from New York, and you're giving me this look

1:01:21now where it makes up, people are just listening.

1:01:25Lauren's looking at me like, yeah, that sounds like, you know, I don't know.

1:01:29But I don't want to put words in your mouth.

1:01:31What are you thinking? Well, I'll tell you this.

1:01:33We have survey data looking at how many people report experiencing menstrual symptoms, things like

1:01:41cramps and low back pain, lack of motivation, irritability.

1:01:47And 75%, 80 % of women report feeling those symptoms, and none of them report

1:01:55changing their training in response to those symptoms.

1:01:57So not to say that you shouldn't, but typically, at least where the data shows,

1:02:05it's not that common that people are overhauling their training, even in response to menstrual

1:02:12symptoms. That said, most people experience them for one or two days.

1:02:16So we're only talking about skipping or adjusting one, maybe two workouts.

1:02:21So I don't feel that strongly about it either way.

1:02:25I think, you know, it's up to you.

1:02:27And like I said, there will be a variety of reasons within any given month

1:02:32why we show up to the gym and we don't feel our best.

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1:03:58Huberman. If I'm not mistaken, you've looked at the data on the relationship between hormone

1:04:05-based contraception and effects of exercise.

1:04:08And I want to be very clear, I said hormone -based contraception because there are

1:04:12so many different forms of contraception, some of which are hormone -based, some of which

1:04:15aren't. And, of course, within the domain of hormone -based, you've got estrogen -based, progestin

1:04:19-based, and there's others as well.

1:04:22What are the general and more specific takeaways from that literature?

1:04:26Does hormone -based contraception impact the adaptation to exercise, the motivation to exercise, or anything

1:04:33else that women should be aware of?

1:04:35What do the data say?

1:04:36The majority of these studies are on folks taking combined oral contraceptive pills.

1:04:42So this wouldn't apply to something like a hormonal IUD or there's a patch that

1:04:50people are using now that it's a more modern take.

1:04:52But there is enough data at this point to say when it comes to strength,

1:04:58hypertrophy, power, we're not seeing combined oral contraceptive pills move the needle in either direction.

1:05:05And there were appropriate hypotheses to say, oh, maybe this could be detrimental or maybe

1:05:12this could be beneficial. But what we see similar to the influence of the endogenous

1:05:19hormone fluctuations, which are quite substantial, if those aren't affecting performance or exercise -induced adaptations,

1:05:27it's not that shocking. that the hormonal contraceptives wouldn't move the needle to a great

1:05:33extent either. Yeah, it's an excellent point.

1:05:35I mean, if one just looks at the plot of estrogen levels or progesterone levels

1:05:40across the different phases of the menstrual cycle, these are enormous differences.

1:05:44Likewise for testosterone and other hormones in women.

1:05:49And you're making the point that hormone -based pill contraception is making changes in hormones

1:05:57of at least that magnitude and so there's no reason to expect that it should

1:06:01impact at least ability. I can think of motivation to train, ability somehow, like if

1:06:10it relates somehow to contract the muscles or tendon strength or something, and then the

1:06:17actual adaptation. So it sounds like none of these things block the adaptation to exercise,

1:06:21the increase in muscle size or strength or both.

1:06:24Is that right? That's right.

1:06:25I would say if you're just starting a contraceptive pill, some people have symptoms and

1:06:33side effects, some of which are kind of attenuated over time and some of which

1:06:37are not, and you need to switch to something else.

1:06:39So you might for a short term because that pill is not a good fit

1:06:43for you, then there could be some short -term influence in that sense.

1:06:48But on the flip side, a lot of people go on a hormonal contraceptive because

1:06:54they have really severe menstrual symptoms, and then that can be helpful in relieving that

1:07:00pain. And so then you might be willing to go to the gym more frequently

1:07:06during the week where you have your menstrual period.

1:07:09So I think we can think about those kind of practical implications, but in terms

1:07:14of just the hormones themselves and the fact that, you know, we're down -regulating the

1:07:18endogenous hormone production by introducing these synthetic hormones, that doesn't seem to impact performance or

1:07:25adaptations to exercise. What, if any, are the really good data around the relationship between

1:07:32perimenopause and menopause and the hormone changes that tend to occur, let's assume without hormone

1:07:37replacement therapy for the moment, and training?

1:07:39Should women change their training as they enter perimenopause and menopause?

1:07:44There's no reason to change your training because we still want the same adaptations.

1:07:50We want to increase and maintain muscle size and strength.

1:07:54We want to reduce fall risk and fracture risk, maintain bone density.

1:08:01And so resistance training is going to be a really key component of an exercise

1:08:07program for somebody pre - and post -menopause.

1:08:12I think the idea that somehow the hormonal changes would influence muscle are really tied

1:08:22to that same thought process that cycle syncing is based on.

1:08:27And so it comes down to this hypothesis that there is this relationship between estrogen

1:08:32and muscle. And so if estrogen is declining with menopause, then that would have some

1:08:40effect on muscle. But we don't see that.

1:08:42We see age -related muscle loss that is exacerbated by physical inactivity.

1:08:48But you look at lean mass across the menopause transition, and that in and of

1:08:56itself isn't accelerating the loss of muscle.

1:09:00I think for understandable reasons there's this correlation that people draw between hormones and muscle.

1:09:06And since resistance training is more kind of muscle -oriented, in people's minds anyway, I

1:09:11mean, you got, you know, tendon and bone, etc., than cardiovascular training.

1:09:15It's a silly thing, but we kind of make that association.

1:09:17There seem all these things around women's fitness.

1:09:21It's like should training change during different phases of the menstrual cycle because, after all,

1:09:26the menstrual cycle is hormones.

1:09:27Hormones affect how one feels, but also muscle.

1:09:30Here we are, you know, back to muscle.

1:09:34The changes in muscle size and strength as one ages, in my understanding, are just

1:09:42as much a function of atrophy of nerve -to -muscle connections, the strength of those,

1:09:48as they are some drop in hormones.

1:09:50And I think it's never really been stated out loud, you know, so I just

1:09:54want your thoughts on this.

1:09:56Do you think that if people understood that a lot of muscle and strength loss

1:10:00is inactivity, as you said, and inactivity brings a weakening of the nerve -to -muscle

1:10:06connection, that it might help us get away a little bit from this idea that

1:10:10everything about muscles is hormones and everything about hormones is muscle, that they're equally important?

1:10:16I realize I'm leading the witness here a little bit, but I'll just out you.

1:10:19Your father's a neuroscientist. How important is the nervous system and the changes that the

1:10:23nervous system normally undergoes as one ages important here?

1:10:26Is that what we're trying to do, or are we trying to offset some of

1:10:29that? It's important, too, because we need to maintain those connections for all movement patterns,

1:10:34right? And so when we see long periods of physical inactivity, think immobilization or bed

1:10:41rest, the rate at which you lose muscle is shocking.

1:10:46I mean, it's really, really dramatic.

1:10:48And so we know that is a very extreme model of atrophy that we want

1:10:56to have. to avoid. But there are other versions of that in just daily kind

1:11:02of sedentary life. You're not on bedrest, but, and you're not technically immobilized, but you're

1:11:07moving so infrequently that you are exacerbating muscle loss.

1:11:14And even if you are just physically active, even if you're not lifting weights, you're

1:11:19much more likely to maintain that muscle.

1:11:22But once you stop being physically active, then we run into a lot of problems.

1:11:28If more people understood the neural aspect of all this exercise stuff and muscle and

1:11:34how that relates to fitness and brain health, I think it would help men and

1:11:39women kind of get around this thing that you mentioned earlier.

1:11:42It's just kind of hovering my mind that so much of the way that fitness

1:11:45has been presented, exercise has been presented to women is around weight loss.

1:11:50And now the conversation seems to be changing.

1:11:52It's about longevity. It's about maintaining muscle.

1:11:55It's about maintaining brain health and not getting injured.

1:11:58And so it seems like it's morphing slightly.

1:12:00I think that is missed in resistance training because we just think about it at

1:12:04the muscle level. But when we think about motor unit recruitment, that is a neural

1:12:11pathway. And we need all of those to stay intact to perform any kind of

1:12:18motor function. And so when we are lifting weights, we're not exclusively building muscle.

1:12:25And that's why we see tendon adaptations, bone adaptations, everything is connected.

1:12:31And it's also why if you're somebody who is aging, but you're physically active in

1:12:37a way that requires a certain type of coordination, maybe it's pickleball, that that is

1:12:44really helpful as well. I think the idea that you have to go to the

1:12:50gym is intimidating for some people because a lot of women in their minds think

1:12:57that they're going to be the only woman in the gym.

1:13:00That's less and less true.

1:13:02But in my experience, it's still the weight room is still probably a male dominated

1:13:08section of the gym. I think the biggest fear is not knowing what to do.

1:13:14And machines can be a really good place to start if you're somebody who doesn't

1:13:20want to work with a trainer and is a little bit nervous about trying to

1:13:25self teach those movement patterns with barbells or dumbbells.

1:13:29A lot of commercial gyms these days have a circuit of machines.

1:13:34And you can start there and kind of get comfortable with those movement patterns, get

1:13:39comfortable with what is challenging, what is close to failure, and then progress to some

1:13:45of these other exercises and equipment.

1:13:47Yeah. When I've tried to encourage female family members to weight train, like, I don't

1:13:52want to go to a gym.

1:13:53Like, why not? They're like, I like my yoga class.

1:13:56I like Pilates. I like going for hikes.

1:13:58What do you think are some things that women could do to sort of lower

1:14:03those barriers for people? Starting with group fitness, because even though most group fitness classes

1:14:09are suboptimal from the perspective of a sound resistance training program, it gets you into

1:14:17the gym. It gets you feeling comfortable.

1:14:21It will teach you some of those movement patterns that we've discussed.

1:14:25And then maybe after class, you and a couple of friends that you've made in

1:14:29class can go and try out a couple of machines.

1:14:32And so you can kind of ease into it that way.

1:14:35And people gravitate towards group fitness because it's social.

1:14:40And you have an appointment because you have to be there at a specific time.

1:14:44So that can be another good kind of entry point to get you going to

1:14:48the gym without feeling overwhelmed by exercises you're not sure how to perform or equipment

1:14:54that you're not sure how to use.

1:14:56In terms of the relationship between hormones, menstrual cycle, and training, I know I'm staying

1:15:01on this, but it comes up, I mean, you've on social media, I mean, I

1:15:05don't know what percentage of questions that you get on social media relate to hormones

1:15:09and training as they relate to one another.

1:15:13It's a lot. I think now more than ever, you're just seeing more and more

1:15:19of this messaging pop up.

1:15:21And with the menstrual cycle, it's not only about exercise.

1:15:25I see the way you should eat differently due to cycle phase, the way you

1:15:30should work differently, the way you should socialize differently.

1:15:34There are all of these messages that are saying you need to kind of overhaul

1:15:39this aspect of your life to align with these phases.

1:15:43Is there any evidence that resistance training can help ameliorate some of the negative symptoms

1:15:51of certain phases of the cycle that women might be experiencing?

1:15:55In other words, do they often feel better by training during the most difficult phase

1:15:59of their cycle? Has that ever been demonstrated?

1:16:01Not with resistance training specifically, but with physical activity, sure.

1:16:07It can definitely help because if you have something like cramps, then just kind of

1:16:14doing something to increase blood flow, even if it's going for a walk can be

1:16:17helpful. And it also kind of gets your mind off of it.

1:16:22So you're not actually sitting there kind of focusing.

1:16:24on the fact that you're uncomfortable.

1:16:26And it depends on the person, but I think some sort of physical activity can

1:16:31be beneficial. And that's something that you should consider exploring, whether it's resistance training or

1:16:38anything else. What about the nutrition aspect and the menstrual cycle?

1:16:45The nutrition data is pretty poor because as is most nutrition data, it's kind of

1:16:53self -report. And so we're saying observationally, people tend to eat a little bit more

1:17:00in this phase versus that phase on average, based on self -reported food diaries.

1:17:06Does that mean that you should change caloric intake or protein intake or carbohydrate intake?

1:17:13We don't have the data to support any of that.

1:17:17And a lot of it comes back to this theory that you have a kind

1:17:23of an anabolic phase or a catabolic phase.

1:17:26And so that extended from, oh, you should focus on more resistance training during this

1:17:32phase to, oh, well, then you must need more protein in this other phase.

1:17:36So what kind of started as a hypothesis about anabolic and catabolic states has twisted

1:17:44into changing your exercise program and changing your diet among other things?

1:17:50I spoke to a couple of different women prior to sitting down with you today

1:17:53because I needed data from actual women as opposed to my ideas about what they

1:17:57might be thinking, right? Or what I see online, right?

1:18:00These are people I'm close with and, and I believe they were honest with me.

1:18:04And for the, it wasn't an enormous poll.

1:18:08This is not an official study, but I heard something at least three times out

1:18:13of the five people I spoke to.

1:18:15And it was this, I know I should lift weights, but I feel like I

1:18:21get enough muscle training from my Pilates or yoga.

1:18:27And I said, yeah, but couldn't those things be really different than resistance training?

1:18:32And the answer that I got back was similar in several cases, which was, yeah,

1:18:36but my Pilates teacher, she looks awesome and she has tons of energy and she's

1:18:4110 years older than me and I want to look like her.

1:18:43So I'm going to do Pilates.

1:18:44And I said, well, do you, does she lift weights?

1:18:47And she said, no, she just does Pilates.

1:18:49And then I said, well, I wonder if she would like did gymnastics when we

1:18:52were younger. And then pretty soon I'm now the guy having this like conversation trying

1:18:56to essentially negotiate something I have no interest in negotiating, but it gave me a

1:19:01window into something that I think might be pretty common, which is that, um, we

1:19:07all look at somebody and what they're doing and we go, oh, like that seems

1:19:10like a look that is reasonable and, and attractive.

1:19:13And I would want that.

1:19:15And they seem to be like kicking butt in life and happy.

1:19:17And I'm going to just do that.

1:19:19And so what do you say to women who perhaps think like they're as muscular

1:19:25as they want to be now doing Pilates and walking and maybe doing some other

1:19:32activities, but they're not doing resistance training.

1:19:34Is there some reason why they should be motivated to also resistance train?

1:19:39What you're describing is very common.

1:19:43And unfortunately for the vast majority of people, they then go and do the exercise

1:19:50class or follow what this person eats in a day.

1:19:55And they never end up looking like that person because we have genetic factors, nutritional

1:20:00factors, exercise factors, and sometimes no matter what, we're not going to have the body

1:20:09of this other person. But Pilates is particularly guilty of promising these dramatic changes in

1:20:18body composition. And that if you do this class that you're going to get toned,

1:20:24you're, you're going to increase your muscle mass and get these long lean lines, or

1:20:29you'll look like a dancer.

1:20:30And so we're, when we, we use that word, which we don't toned, but when

1:20:34people use it, they mean increase muscle size and decrease body fat.

1:20:39And the most effective and efficient way to accomplish that is through resistance training to

1:20:46increase muscle size and through nutritional adjustments to decrease body fat.

1:20:52Even if you're happy doing the Pilates and walking right now, and I'm not saying

1:20:58give that up because I'm a fan of all physical activity that people enjoy, but

1:21:03it is not sufficient resistance.

1:21:06It's not progressive resistance to stave off that age -related muscle loss that I mentioned.

1:21:15All we need is two 20 minute workouts per week, full body resistance training to

1:21:21make a pretty powerful impact on trying to attenuate some of that decline and losing

1:21:28muscle mass, increasing fall risk, fracture risk, all of those downstream health effects that lead

1:21:36to an existence in your eighties or nineties, that is not very functionally independent.

1:21:42We don't want that. And so if we know we can implement this and it's

1:21:46not that much of a time investment, it's not that much of a financial investment.

1:21:50It's kind of a no brainer.

1:21:51you you I'm so glad you mentioned the genetic piece because genetics are huge when

1:21:57it comes to, you know, lean mass to non -lean mass body ratio.

1:22:02People don't, I mean, obviously people over consume calories.

1:22:05They're going to gain weight.

1:22:06Some people more quickly than others perhaps.

1:22:10But, you know, it's such a big factor.

1:22:13It seems to me that so is someone having done strength and speed sports when

1:22:19they were younger. Like you look at someone who was a gymnast, a sprinter, a

1:22:24pole vaulter, a competitive tennis player.

1:22:27You got a lot of like speed type movement.

1:22:29And I've noticed even when they just do yoga or something in their 30s, I

1:22:34know this because as a graduate student, as you know, right, when I was in

1:22:39my 20s and then a postdoc in my 30s, you know, I was exercising less.

1:22:43And the people around you are exercising less.

1:22:45So you're just doing experiments all the time and studying all the time.

1:22:47And some people just seem to stay really fit through that.

1:22:49And you go, like, what do you do?

1:22:51And they're like, oh, I just like these days, I just do yoga.

1:22:53Did you play a sport in high school?

1:22:54Yeah, I was like, you know, D1 soccer, gymnast.

1:22:57And I do think that people who play these competitive sports early in life, they

1:23:01hold on to a certain amount of musculature.

1:23:03Now, maybe there's a selection bias that led them to be a D1 athlete combined

1:23:06with training, right? So they were kind of had genetics that then they built on.

1:23:10But what I'm – I feel like these situations are very misleading.

1:23:14And with men, it tends to be misleading where somebody is extremely muscular and lean.

1:23:20I think of my friend Nasima.

1:23:21He does a podcast with Mark Bell.

1:23:24Nasima is completely steroid and TRT free.

1:23:28He really is. I believe him.

1:23:29And actually, to speak to your earlier point, his testosterone, he's shown his charge to

1:23:36somewhere in like the mid fives.

1:23:38The guy is like – his muscle density is insane.

1:23:40He's got – he walks around with 8 % body fat.

1:23:42He's a terrific athlete, et cetera.

1:23:44He has genetic gifts that he's built upon with very hard work.

1:23:48So I can't look at him and say, oh, I'm going to just do what

1:23:50he does, right? The parallel in women's fitness – and I don't want to discount

1:23:56the women out there who want to be very muscular, but let's just consider the

1:24:00averages here. They might look at their Pilates teacher and she might have been a

1:24:05gymnast who was also slightly genetically gifted and now can just do that.

1:24:09No one talks about this.

1:24:11And it really contorts people's thinking and people are trying to figure out what to

1:24:15do, what to eat, et cetera.

1:24:16So I'd love for you to elaborate on this a bit more if you think

1:24:20it's appropriate. But like no one acknowledges this.

1:24:23I share your hypothesis about the activity you do as a kid.

1:24:29Even if you don't become an elite athlete, I think that is something that does

1:24:34kind of stick with you.

1:24:36And let's say you were a child gymnast and then you pick up lifting in

1:24:43your 20s. I see women develop that upper body strength a lot more easily because

1:24:49I think they were doing that in childhood.

1:24:56The genetic variability is huge because it's the structure, our bone structure, our muscle insertions,

1:25:07the size of our waist.

1:25:10There are certain things that we can't change.

1:25:14You can't change your shape.

1:25:15Yes, we can gain fat, lose fat, gain muscle, lose muscle.

1:25:19But some people have naturally broader shoulders or have dealt insertions that mean they have

1:25:27that look of these capped shoulders.

1:25:29Or they just don't carry a lot of body fat on their arms or on

1:25:35their legs. And so the way that where we tend to store fat or distribute

1:25:42that fat varies from person to person.

1:25:46The place in which we lose fat first and last will vary.

1:25:51And often when you compare yourself to somebody with a very different structure, perhaps they

1:25:59have a metabolism that allows for them to maintain a certain body weight or a

1:26:06certain body fat at a really comfortable caloric intake.

1:26:11Whereas for you to maintain that certain level of body size or body fat would

1:26:16require a very uncomfortable, unsustainable level of caloric intake.

1:26:21And that is just is what it is.

1:26:25In the old days of fitness, meaning when I started in the 90s, it's not

1:26:29old days, but here I am.

1:26:32There was this idea of ectomorph, endomorph, and mesomorph.

1:26:36We don't hear that anymore.

1:26:38Ectomorph being very thin, long sinewy muscles, small joints, quote unquote hard gainer.

1:26:43There was mesomorph, which is the kind of, you know, more muscular, somewhat lean perhaps.

1:26:48And then there was the endomorph idea.

1:26:50Somebody carrying a lot of excess body fat kind of idea.

1:26:55Is that just completely irrelevant now in terms of picking training programs?

1:26:59Have we just really landed in a place where it's all about, hey, listen, if

1:27:03you're an endomorph, you're eating more than you should.

1:27:07There's muscle under there perhaps.

1:27:08If you're an ectomorph, you're just, you know, maintaining a very low body weight.

1:27:13You need to lift more and eat more.

1:27:14Is there any reality to this?

1:27:16I could be wrong, but I think those ladies.

1:27:19and those descriptors don't even come from any sort of physiology research or framework.

1:27:27I think they come from psychology, which makes no sense given that we're using them

1:27:34to describe how one might expect to adapt to training.

1:27:39You can say, oh, if you're somebody who is kind of skinny, maybe you can

1:27:44expect to be a hard gainer, but sometimes that's not the case at all.

1:27:48You see teenage boys that were kind of skin and bones and lanky, and then

1:27:54they start lifting and they blow up.

1:27:57Oh, I didn't. I raised my hand.

1:27:59I didn't blow up, but I mean, I was a 6 '1", 150 pounds.

1:28:03And in my first year of training, I think I put on like 25, 30

1:28:07pounds of, maybe it wasn't all muscle, but that didn't continue.

1:28:10It definitely can happen. But I also knew guys that when we finished junior high

1:28:15school, they were like built, even though they had never touched a weight.

1:28:19They were like my bulldog Costello, who had these huge forearms, he never touched a

1:28:23weight. It was just, you know, so I do think the genetic variation piece is

1:28:27huge. There's also the height component too, though, because if you think about if you

1:28:33are 5 '6", and you have, you know, the same kind of relative muscle mass

1:28:39as somebody who is 5 '11", you are going to look way more muscular than

1:28:44the tall counterpart. So if the person who's 5 '11", or 6 '2", wants to

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1:30:25If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth .com slash Huberman.

1:30:30Function currently has a wait list of over 250 ,000 people, but they're offering early

1:30:35access to Huberman podcast listeners.

1:30:37Again, that's functionhealth .com slash Huberman to get early access to Function.

1:30:42So let's talk about training fasted or not training fasted.

1:30:46I'm chuckling because there are these times when I think, oh, you know, recently it

1:30:50got really intense online. Should women train fasted or not train fasted?

1:30:54Coming from the world of research science, which we both do, these quote -unquote battles

1:31:00online, they're like nothing because in the end, it really boils down to what do

1:31:05we know, what do we not know, right?

1:31:07Battles in science get down to two people looking at the same graph and arguing

1:31:11about it like every, you know, that one piece of data out on the plot.

1:31:15We're not really arguing data when we're arguing mass experience.

1:31:20So what is the data, the laboratory data on women training fasted in terms of

1:31:27fat loss, muscle gain, strength gain, and just whether or not it's a good or

1:31:32bad idea on the whole?

1:31:34I'm glad you bring up the data piece because in some of these conversations, there's

1:31:40a lot of extrapolation of a potential mechanism.

1:31:45And that's not where we lean when we develop our recommendations about exercise and nutrition.

1:31:52We need to look at the data in the population of interest, humans, measuring the

1:31:59outcome we are interested in using the intervention that we're discussing.

1:32:06So in the case of a fed and fasted state training, this has been looked

1:32:12at long on longer term studies.

1:32:14So consistent fasted state training, not just an acute bout of fasted state training.

1:32:20And the muscle growth and fat loss adaptations to exercise are the same in men

1:32:28and in women. And there was a school of thought that fasted training might be

1:32:35beneficial for fat loss, like 2012 maybe.

1:32:39And everyone was doing fasted cardio thinking it was going to accelerate their fat loss

1:32:43because they were exercising in a, in a fasted state.

1:32:47fasted state and oxidizing more fat because they were fasted acutely.

1:32:51Turns out that acute fat oxidation or fat oxidation post -workout isn't meaningful enough to

1:33:01offset the rest of the metabolism throughout the day such that you don't lose more

1:33:07body fat long term. Now the pendulum has kind of swung in the other direction

1:33:12and the argument is that if you're training fasted, you're going to gain fat or

1:33:18lose muscle. And that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either because when we

1:33:25wake up in the morning, we ate dinner last night, right?

1:33:29We have stored glycogen and most resistance training sessions aren't extremely glycogen depleting anyway.

1:33:36So unless we're going to do some really long form endurance training, in which case,

1:33:43yeah, it's probably wise to have something to eat beforehand to fuel that long session,

1:33:49the decision to train fed or fasted should be based on personal preference.

1:33:54Do you have a personal preference?

1:33:56If I go in the morning, I always train fasted.

1:34:00If I go later in the day, I've eaten.

1:34:05Caffeine before you train? Always.

1:34:09For the just general alertness or also performance enhancing effects of caffeine?

1:34:16I notice more the general alertness, but it's probably hard to separate those.

1:34:22I think we see more performance benefits if you go from being, you know, caffeine

1:34:29naive, and I am not.

1:34:31I'm very habituated at this point, so I'm probably not seeing that many performance benefits.

1:34:37But I definitely feel it when I don't have caffeine pre -workout.

1:34:4290 % of adults in the world drink caffeine every day.

1:34:46And it turns out one of the hardest things to do about running a study

1:34:48on caffeine is getting people to not drink caffeine for like two weeks to do

1:34:53a washout. Because otherwise you end up studying caffeine withdrawal versus people who are continuing

1:34:57to drink caffeine. I spent a lot of time with this literature and it's a

1:34:59maddening literature. I'm right there with you, total caffeine addict, and I'm cool.

1:35:05So I'm Andrew, I'm a caffeine addict, you know, and proud of it.

1:35:10So if you were going to ingest food before you train, and given that most

1:35:19resistance training sessions are not glycogen depleting, which you said, is there any advantage to

1:35:26having some starchy carbohydrate before resistance training that's independent of glycogen?

1:35:33Is there any value to eating a given food before training?

1:35:37Might make you feel better.

1:35:40You might feel like you have more energy, you might feel better in the gym.

1:35:44Other people feel like they have GI issues if they eat too close to a

1:35:48workout. And so that's, uh, they'd prefer to eat afterwards.

1:35:53So I think if you are someone who wants to experiment with both, then have

1:35:59at it. But for resistance training, the composition of the meal you're eating pre -workout

1:36:05is very unlikely to be used as fuel in that workout.

1:36:11Really? Well, if we are eating right before we train, then we still need to

1:36:17digest and absorb those nutrients.

1:36:19So I guess it depends what it is that we're consuming.

1:36:22If you're consuming, uh, you know, one of those liquid packs that people, um, consume

1:36:31during a marathon, do you know what I mean?

1:36:32Yeah. Yeah. Like, so that's like really fast generating.

1:36:37Um, but if we're, if we're going to have some oats or something, then if

1:36:45I'm eating my oats and going to the gym, I'm probably not using that as

1:36:49my fuel for that workout.

1:36:51What about post -workout nutrition?

1:36:53Uh, for many years, there were all sorts of ideas.

1:36:56You have a unique opportunity to, you know, store more glycogen.

1:36:59Uh, to this day, I still have some fruit and some starch and a protein

1:37:03drink after I train. Does it matter if it's in the first 30 to 90

1:37:08minutes in terms of the adaptation?

1:37:10This is all independent of, um, hunger and kind of what one, what makes one

1:37:17feel better. I'm just thinking in terms of recovering more quickly, uh, to be able

1:37:21to train again, get back to work and do other things.

1:37:24So the training is the stimulus for the adaptation or muscle growth, if we're talking

1:37:29about resistance training, and then the nutrition or the dietary protein can kind of optimize

1:37:35our results from that stimulus.

1:37:38And there was once a school of thought that there was this anabolic window and

1:37:43it was very narrow and you needed to slam that protein shake the second you

1:37:46left the gym or, you know, why did you even bother lifting that day?

1:37:51Uh, it turns out that post resistance training, that window, that elevated protein synthesis is

1:38:01long lasting. We've measured this and see that it's still elevated even 24 hours after

1:38:09your session. Not that I'm suggesting you wait 24 hours to eat, but this in.

1:38:14that whether you're eating within 30 minutes or three hours, that's not going to affect

1:38:22the extent to which that dietary protein can support your muscle adaptations.

1:38:28I saw a study, I think it was about a year and a half ago,

1:38:31that asserted that post -resistance training, and I forget how long they waited, post -resistance

1:38:35training, but some period of time after resistance training, that men and women can assimilate

1:38:40up to 100 grams of protein, whereas previously we thought that one could only assimilate

1:38:4730 grams of protein per feeding.

1:38:49Whatever became of the 30 -gram limit, and how does exercise impact the amount of

1:38:56protein one can and perhaps should ingest?

1:39:00Well, when we think about the protein that we're actually able to absorb and utilize

1:39:09for muscle adaptation, it's a different question of how much can we consume and absorb,

1:39:15because not all of the protein that we consume is going straight into the muscle.

1:39:21So it's not that we should worry so much about maximizing per meal protein so

1:39:30much as per day, per week, consistent protein intake, and that will, again, support the

1:39:41adaptations from the stimulus that we're getting from our training.

1:39:45But the idea that we're somehow gaming the system with timing or dosing, it's really

1:39:55we need to kind of pull back the lens and think more big picture of,

1:39:59okay, if I'm aiming for this overall protein intake, then practically it probably makes sense

1:40:05for me to split that up into a couple of meals.

1:40:07So what does that look like?

1:40:09And then can I do that consistently?

1:40:12Creatine is really big these days.

1:40:15Everyone's talking about creatine, it seems.

1:40:18Creatine has been around a long time.

1:40:22What can I do for muscle and strength?

1:40:24What do we know it can do for brain function?

1:40:27And is there anything different about the creatine women should take or the amount of

1:40:31creatine women should take or when they should take it?

1:40:34I'm not familiar with this aspect of the creatine literature at all, but I hear

1:40:41about creatine just about every day.

1:40:43Yeah, it's having a renaissance, but for women.

1:40:48It's still the same. It's just creatine monohydrate, often packaged in gummy form, which you

1:40:54should be careful about because gummy supplements often don't contain the dose that they claim

1:41:03to contain. Someone actually analyzed a bunch of creatine gummies, top selling brands on Amazon,

1:41:09and some of them contained virtually no creatine.

1:41:13Really? Yeah. So be careful about the gummies.

1:41:17They're often, they spray the gummy with the kind of solution on top afterwards, and

1:41:22so it can, anyway. I would go with a powder form of creatine monohydrate over

1:41:30a gummy. It can get you an extra rep or two in the gym or

1:41:35cut a second off your sprint.

1:41:38We're talking adaptations of that nature.

1:41:40It's very safe. It's well studied.

1:41:42And so if you're somebody who is training and you're interested, then I think it's

1:41:48worth taking, and the kind of standard recommendation would be five grams per day.

1:41:53And if you're not exercising, I really wouldn't bother taking creatine.

1:41:59It's not going to just increase muscle mass when you don't have the stimulus for

1:42:06muscle growth. So this is an appropriate supplement for people who are exercising.

1:42:14And the claims about brain health, I think, are premature because the data that we

1:42:20have to date are people in some kind of a deficit.

1:42:25So they were Alzheimer's patients.

1:42:30They were clinically depressed and also taking SSRIs.

1:42:34They were undergoing extreme sleep deprivation.

1:42:39They had a traumatic brain injury.

1:42:41This is really interesting literature, but I think it's been repackaged to tell people that

1:42:50you're getting some sort of cognitive boost with creatine.

1:42:54And that's not the same as, oh, this could be helpful for these clinical populations

1:43:00with some sort of potential brain creatine deficit.

1:43:04It will increase creatinine levels on a blood chart.

1:43:09Is that right? Often it will, yes.

1:43:11Because that will spike into the quote unquote red zone.

1:43:13It'll spike high. Is there any, my understanding is there's no reason to be concerned

1:43:18about that if that spike of the creatinine levels are because of taking creatine.

1:43:24That's right. And you just need to tell your physician that you're taking it because

1:43:28otherwise they likely would be concerned.

1:43:30But that's, it's normal. That's just breaking down creatine.

1:43:33And is it still true that the long -term data show no danger of taking

1:43:39creatine on the order of five grams per day for?

1:43:42years. Is that still true?

1:43:44That's still true. It's one of the most studied supplements out there.

1:43:49What's your take on the various forms of creatine?

1:43:54Monohydrate is the most typical form, but I see a lot of different versions.

1:43:59There's a, I think it's a, well, I won't name brands, not because I'm trying

1:44:04to hide that because I can't remember, but some people want more water drawn to

1:44:09the muscle and less subcutaneous water.

1:44:11Is there any evidence that it can be directed that way by way of the

1:44:15form of creatine? No. I mean, creatine monohydrate is definitely the most studied form.

1:44:22And so people are trying to introduce these with the kind of claim that somehow

1:44:29it would be better or that, you know, you won't bloat as much.

1:44:33I've seen that particularly marketed to women, but it doesn't really end up working that

1:44:38way because just because it's breaking down more in your liquid, right?

1:44:44It doesn't mean that it's absorbed differently when you actually consume it.

1:44:49So even if you were to just dry scoop creatine and just chase it with

1:44:54water, the results are the same as if you blend it up until there's literally

1:44:59no bits left in the glass.

1:45:01For two scientists to have, and I have a friend who told me kind of

1:45:05conversation is a little bit non -scientific, but I have a friend, she's a woman.

1:45:09She started taking creatine. She started resistance training, not in that order.

1:45:14And she's getting great results and loves it.

1:45:17And she's totally into the fact that now she can do three full range pull

1:45:20-ups. And it's just awesome to see her progression and hear her excitement around it.

1:45:24She was fit before. Now she's just really charged up about this.

1:45:26And she said, she was reporting her experience.

1:45:29She said, you know, when I take five grams of creatine, I feel like it

1:45:36kind of makes me blurry.

1:45:38Like there's a lot of subcutaneous water I hold.

1:45:41Then when I take three, that doesn't happen.

1:45:44This is a more general question that I have about how to deal with people's

1:45:47individual experience. I mean, you never want to argue with somebody's individual experience.

1:45:52I believe her. She knows her better than anyone.

1:45:54And yet my understanding is that there's no data to support that.

1:45:58So I'm asking you about creatine, but thematically, I'm asking you as a scientist who's

1:46:05online dealing with questions all the time, who has her own individual experience, how do

1:46:11you want people to think about a situation like that for creatine, but for anything?

1:46:16Hey, when I, some people say, I take creatine and I lose hair.

1:46:20And you're like, oh, there's no evidence of that.

1:46:22But then they go, no, I think my hair falls out.

1:46:25You know, what do you do?

1:46:27How do you specifically deal with that?

1:46:30Well, I think some people are online for others to validate their own personal experiences.

1:46:37And in that situation, you say, I respect your experience and you walk away.

1:46:42There are other people who are online with, with genuine questions, sometimes because they've heard

1:46:48that this was their friend's experience, or they've seen another post about it and they're

1:46:51actually open to the information.

1:46:55And those are the people that are worth the time investment to connect with because

1:47:01they're genuinely interested in the science and interested in learning.

1:47:04And it's, it's not about proving them wrong because that's a losing battle.

1:47:11There is another phenomenon, not just online, where there's a lot of distrust in formal

1:47:19academic science nowadays. There are a lot of reasons for this.

1:47:23It, social media being one of them, but this was building up for a long

1:47:27period of time. And I think as a woman in this area of research and

1:47:32public education, I think it's tricky when we look back, you know, 25 years and

1:47:36we were told, oh yeah, you know, if you work out with weights, put on

1:47:40muscle, but then it all turns to fat.

1:47:41If you stop, it's like, you know, if you take creatine, it's going to destroy

1:47:45your kidneys. You know, it's going to mess up your hormone cycles, especially if you're

1:47:48a woman, then it's going to mess with pregnant.

1:47:50Like, are there any things that you hear circulating now that you would like to

1:47:56see explored in a formal rigorous way?

1:47:58Cause you think they could really help clarify and help people?

1:48:02I think we don't understand a lot about these body composition changes that some women

1:48:11experience and others don't through the menopause transition.

1:48:15And one of the big complaints that a lot of women have is this kind

1:48:22of redistribution of body fat or preferential growth of body fat in the midsection.

1:48:27And you could speculate that it's the estrogen receptor related perhaps, but we don't have

1:48:34human data to support that.

1:48:37And whenever you make a claim about estrogen specifically or loss of estrogen, then you

1:48:43have to think, well, if it's only that, then it should be everybody who experiences

1:48:48it because post -menopause you're on the same boat.

1:48:52Right. And so it has to be more complicated than that.

1:48:55And most things, as you know, physiologically, it's, it's rarely just one thing.

1:49:00And that one thing can explain.

1:49:03So I think that deserves more exploration.

1:49:08And I think. We need to do a better job with science communication because, unfortunately,

1:49:18the Internet is sort of taking it by storm.

1:49:21And on one hand, I'm thinking it's cool that there's this interest in science, that

1:49:25people want that PubMed ID and people are asking for data.

1:49:28But the flip side of it is that not everybody has the tool or the

1:49:34skill set to interpret the full paper.

1:49:37And so then people are using science as a way to cherry pick or to

1:49:46promote a message that isn't really reflective of the literature as a whole.

1:49:54And that's really challenging for the confused woman on social media, for the fitness coach

1:50:04or personal trainer who is trying to help that woman out, and for the scientist

1:50:10who looks around and says, hey, this is sort of a weaponization of science because

1:50:16you're not being true to the literature.

1:50:19That said, an individual study is not designed to tell any one person exactly how

1:50:29to eat or how to train or how many steps to take or what supplements

1:50:34to take. So, yes, we need to be evidence -based.

1:50:38Yes, we need to be honest about what the science says, what we do and

1:50:44do not know. But, of course, there's going to be a component of individualization when

1:50:52you actually make decisions about what behaviors to engage in.

1:50:58Spectacular answer. I would love to see the study that you described done.

1:51:02Is it possible to look at receptor distributions in adult humans using some imaging technique?

1:51:08Or do you have to biopsy fat and muscle from the midsection to get a

1:51:12sense of, like, estrogen receptor density and saturation?

1:51:15The biopsy would be the way to go.

1:51:18And a fat biopsy is even more uncomfortable than a muscle biopsy.

1:51:23Ouch. Yeah. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were imaging techniques that would allow people

1:51:27to go into a scanner and you'd get distribution of estrogen receptors, distribution of testosterone

1:51:31receptors, and saturation, how many bound?

1:51:34I mean, it would be wonderful.

1:51:35I mean, medical imaging can get us there, I think, hopefully.

1:51:40Yeah, I mean, it would be really powerful.

1:51:41Because even when we think about any biopsy study, we're taking 50 to 100 milligrams

1:51:48of tissue out of a single muscle or site, and then making a lot of

1:51:55extrapolations based on this tiny amount of tissue.

1:51:59We're saying, is this representative of the whole muscle?

1:52:02Is this representative of other muscles in the body?

1:52:05And if we're doing a kind of pre -post design, then when you go back

1:52:10in, is it possible that the adaptations along that same muscle could vary slightly?

1:52:17So there's a lot of limitations to what is a very cool, very valuable technique.

1:52:24But I think when we talk about a biopsy and what we're getting from that,

1:52:30we do need to acknowledge that we're making a lot of assumptions based on that

1:52:34tiny amount of tissue. Earlier, you said that where people store fat has a genetic

1:52:39component. So as uncomfortable as the experiment might seem to people, is it fair to

1:52:45say if you want to know where you have a propensity to store fat, look

1:52:49at your parents? Maybe. But there are lifestyle considerations, certainly, that go along with that.

1:52:59So I think genetics is our starting point, but it doesn't dictate our end point.

1:53:07And so if you have parents who have never really paid attention to their diet,

1:53:13have never really engaged in sport or structured exercise or resistance training, then how they

1:53:21fare through the aging process does not have to be the same experience for you.

1:53:26I'm just trying to think of how the site of fat storage would be encoded

1:53:32genetically. I'm guessing like more adipocytes like at certain locations.

1:53:37And of course, there's a male -female difference.

1:53:41There tends to be a male -female difference that presumably depends on androgen and estrogen

1:53:46receptors, but I'm not an expert in that issue specifically.

1:53:51Some would hypothesize that there's a kind of reproductive advantage to having more fat around

1:53:58the hips. And so then across the menopause transition, when you no longer have that

1:54:06reproductive function, then that explains the reason why you would start to gain more fat

1:54:13around the midsection and lose fat around the hips.

1:54:17Do we have the data to support that?

1:54:20Not really. This is more kind of looking back at evolutionary biology and kind of

1:54:24trying to piece things together as to why it might be the case.

1:54:28That said, not all men have what we would say, you know, male pattern fat

1:54:35distribution, and not all women.

1:54:37That said, not all men have what we would say.

1:54:37have what we would say is female pattern fat distribution.

1:54:41So yes, you're right that there's a tendency to have one or the other, but

1:54:48it's not necessarily a one -size -fits -all.

1:54:52Speaking of hormones, let's talk about the most barbed wire hormone of them all, which

1:55:00is cortisol. You know, I won't belabor this conversation with this because I've said it

1:55:08many times before, but you want high cortisol in the morning.

1:55:10It's why you wake up in the morning.

1:55:11You want your cortisol low at night before you go to sleep in the last

1:55:14hours before sleep. That sets you up for a lot of great things, and that's

1:55:17true for men and women.

1:55:20But cortisol and women and women's fitness has become like a real hotbed of misinformation.

1:55:28It's the first time I've ever used that word on this podcast.

1:55:31Misinformation, it's such a loaded word, and it's – but I think it's appropriate here

1:55:34because you hear all the time, you know, if you stress, your cortisol goes up.

1:55:40If you – people will say if you cold plunge, your cortisol goes up, and

1:55:44if your cortisol goes up, you're going to get moon face, and you're going to

1:55:48store body fat around your midsection, which is true if somebody has Cushing syndrome, which

1:55:53is, you know, pathologically high levels of cortisol.

1:55:55But please clarify, educate. Yeah, and you hear, oh, never do zone 2 training because

1:56:05of cortisol. Don't do high -intensity training because of cortisol.

1:56:08And so then you're stuck with these women who are thinking that, you know, any

1:56:12intensity is bad because of cortisol.

1:56:16As you said, this is real manifestations of Cushing syndrome that are being kind of

1:56:24twisted to say, hey, are you a little stressed?

1:56:28Have you gained some fat around your midsection?

1:56:31It must be cortisol. So it's a really compelling pitch to people, usually to sell

1:56:36them some ineffective cortisol -reducing supplement, which we don't need and they don't work.

1:56:42If you actually have chronically elevated cortisol, then you need to be treated with medication,

1:56:49not some natural supplement. So I think the important point here is that those cortisol

1:56:56increases are normal and necessary.

1:56:59It's also necessary for blood pressure regulation, blood glucose regulation.

1:57:05That's important for exercise and those acute fluctuations are not contributing to fat storage or

1:57:16inability to lose fat. Yeah, presumably in the population of people who try and self

1:57:24-soothe with eating excess calories when they're stressed, that the correlation just becomes to them

1:57:30obvious, but it's like cryptic correlation as we call it, right?

1:57:33Because two things are happening, they're stressed and they're eating more, and yes, their cortisol

1:57:36is probably elevated. So it all hangs together rationally, but the food part is never

1:57:41really discussed. How being stressed causes some people to eat far less and how being

1:57:46stressed causes some people to eat far more in particular unhealthy foods.

1:57:50So I feel like the real world puzzle pieces kind of fit together at the

1:57:55level of kind of perfect storm of people with thinking that cortisol is the culprit,

1:58:00forgetting what cortisol does to eating when food is most likely, I don't like to

1:58:08call food a culprit, but in this instance, I think it's appropriate.

1:58:11Well, I think that is not an exciting message that makes you feel like...

1:58:18Really? So if you say, oh, you know, what's your diet look like?

1:58:23No, we, as humans, we want a different answer.

1:58:28We want to look for something else to blame.

1:58:30And so the flavor of this year or maybe the last couple of years has

1:58:35definitely been cortisol. Maybe we'll move on to blame a different hormone in 2026.

1:58:41Just as supplements go through broad trends, hormones go through broad trends, neurotransmitters.

1:58:45Like a few years back, it was all oxytocin.

1:58:48Everything was oxytocin. Then it was serotonin.

1:58:51Dopamine had its big moments and then now it really does seem to be like

1:58:57cortisol is the thing. And I'm only being half facetious.

1:59:01I mean, I love that people are interested in this stuff and they want to

1:59:03learn. I think you can't give them so much detail that they, you know, dissolve

1:59:08into a puddle of their own confusion.

1:59:10And yet the oversimplification, it can be tough.

1:59:14And Cushing's syndrome is not very common.

1:59:17It's typically a manifestation of somebody who's taking a lot of steroids and then you're

1:59:25ending up with this chronically elevated cortisol as a side effect.

1:59:29And so it's not the case that everybody on the Internet actually has Cushing's syndrome

1:59:35and should be concerned and needs to go see an endocrinologist.

1:59:38It's more the case that people are, again, borrowing from some of the side effects

1:59:45of Cushing's syndrome and then kind of tugging at people's vulnerabilities and desires to change

1:59:53their body composition and saying, you know, it's not your behaviors, it's not your lifestyle,

1:59:59it's your cortisol. As you and I both know, a good, solid result.

2:00:05distance training session of about, you know, 30 minutes to an hour will triple or

2:00:10quadruple circulating cortisol levels. I think if people understood that, they might look at cortisol

2:00:16a little bit differently. How do you think people should feel when they finish a

2:00:20workout? I know that might seem very subjective, but it's something that we can all

2:00:24get in touch with because I know that if I train for an hour or

2:00:2975 minutes, I feel great.

2:00:31If I push hard past 90 minutes in the gym, I'm pretty depleted for a

2:00:36while. And oftentimes that leads to less progress and minor, you know, I think more

2:00:42susceptibility to infection and things like that.

2:00:45Is it reasonable to assume that cortisol is somehow involved?

2:00:48Is overtraining at the level of an individual workout a real thing?

2:00:53Most importantly, how should people walk out of the gym feeling, assuming they're sleeping well

2:00:57and the rest of their life is in order?

2:00:59I think most people are not at risk of overtraining.

2:01:04I think especially your average female population.

2:01:09I think there are issues with female athletes, certainly, but I think there's a lot

2:01:16of concern about, you know, needing recovery or inflammation that is probably overblown because, you

2:01:23know, true overtraining, we get red flags that would manifest in other ways.

2:01:29So you would have difficulty sleeping or you would feel sore for days and really

2:01:35under -recovered or under the weather.

2:01:37And those might be some signs that you're really overdoing it.

2:01:41But I think it's probably not an issue for most people, but I think some

2:01:48days it depends on when we're training, what time of day we're training.

2:01:53And that might dictate your personal decisions for how hard to push and how long

2:02:00to train. There are some people, if they train in the evening, then that disrupts

2:02:04their sleep. And there are other people who, when they train in the morning and

2:02:09feel like that's a great start to their day, really pushes energy and productivity for

2:02:15the rest of the day.

2:02:15Are you a morning trainer or an evening trainer?

2:02:18I prefer mornings. I'll go in the afternoon.

2:02:21I won't go in the evening.

2:02:22I don't like it. What about you?

2:02:24Yeah. I used to train in the afternoon evenings when I was in college.

2:02:28And then over the years, I've just shifted to training in the morning.

2:02:31I would like everyone to ask themselves the following question.

2:02:37If you train at different times of day, does it impact your energy the rest

2:02:41of the day? Because what I've found, and this is less about my experience, I

2:02:44like to prompt people's questions about themselves is if I do resistance training before say

2:02:5110 AM, I have more energy all day long.

2:02:54If I do it somewhere around noon, 2 PM, I just, afterwards I'm just beat.

2:03:00And I like to think that I'm, dare I say, riding the morning cortisol wave

2:03:05and I'm collapsing whatever cortisol I'm getting from my training into that.

2:03:09And I just feel really good.

2:03:10I don't like to train in after 2 PM because I like to drink a

2:03:16lot of caffeine before I train and it messes up my sleep.

2:03:20I do not like to train uncaffeinated.

2:03:23So that's the biggie for me.

2:03:25But in college, when I was more of going to sleep at midnight, 1 AM

2:03:28and sleeping in till, you know, eight or nine, cause I could afford to do

2:03:32that. I'd go to the gym at night.

2:03:34And it's also when it was social.

2:03:36And I think some of those factors change over time.

2:03:40Yeah. I think one thing to keep in mind for people is if you are

2:03:43used to training at a certain time of day, and then you switch it, particularly

2:03:47if you transition from late afternoon or evening training to morning training, you might see

2:03:52a kind of hit in performance initially, but that should resolve in a couple of

2:03:58weeks. Cardio I'll do whenever because I don't need caffeine to do it, but I

2:04:03prefer caffeine to do it.

2:04:05I prefer caffeine for most things.

2:04:07What are your thoughts on hormone therapies that are not replacement?

2:04:12And I'm not talking about blasting anabolic steroids.

2:04:14I'm talking about, because this is happening now in mass with women because of the

2:04:20understandable interest in hormone replacement therapy for perimenopause, menopause, estrogen therapy, testosterone therapy.

2:04:27So for a woman who feels like, hey, like they're feeling less vigor, their sleep,

2:04:34muscle, et cetera. And they get, it's very easy nowadays to find a doctor to

2:04:37prescribe them estrogen or testosterone cream or a injection.

2:04:41And they're like, I feel awesome.

2:04:44I talked to someone the other day, I'm taking this, I think it's progesterone.

2:04:47I have to be a progesterone.

2:04:49And she said, I feel awesome.

2:04:51The progesterone thing fixed my sleep.

2:04:52I have so much energy.

2:04:53I'm up in the morning.

2:04:54She's like, I feel like I did in my thirties.

2:04:56It's now we're not talking supplements, talking prescription drugs, but none of them had a

2:05:01measurable deficiency. They're just giving some, what I call hormone augmentation.

2:05:06It's, you know, and the language gets tricky here.

2:05:09They're just augmenting their hormone levels.

2:05:11So they're going from whatever they were to higher, and they are thrilled about it.

2:05:16I don't know that they're not creating other issues, but I think we're going to

2:05:20see tons of this in the years to come.

2:05:23Menopause hormone therapy, as you said, is not intended to replace because you're not supposed

2:05:30to have the same hormone levels.

2:05:33after menopause, as you did pre -menopause.

2:05:36So the goal there with these estrogen -based therapies is really to target symptoms, not

2:05:43to treat to a hormone level.

2:05:45And there's a wealth of data that this can be really effective for symptom management,

2:05:52which has a ton of downstream effects.

2:05:55So we don't have good data to suggest that it is going to attenuate the

2:06:01loss of muscle mass or increase muscle mass.

2:06:04But if you're somebody who is suffering with hot flashes and poor sleep and night

2:06:10sweats, and then you can get some relief from that, then certainly you're more likely

2:06:15to be adherent to your diet or going to the gym with greater frequency and

2:06:22feeling better. And so we can't discount the ability to lean on some of these

2:06:29to improve the way that you feel.

2:06:32The testosterone conversation gets a little bit trickier because right now it's really only kind

2:06:40of proven to be effective for low sexual desire, low libido in women.

2:06:47And so there are a lot of people who are experimenting with it for other

2:06:51reasons, but we need to remember that the testosterone levels that people are using or

2:06:59should be using for this kind of supplement are fairly low because you're trying to

2:07:05treat to low normal. And then if you start to go beyond that low normal,

2:07:12then we can get a lot of those unwanted side effects that we would get

2:07:16if we were taking testosterone for the bodybuilding purpose.

2:07:21And so you might see voice deepening or unwanted hair growth, or we, so that's

2:07:28typically why if you're a woman, you'd only want to use this in really low

2:07:33doses. And we don't have the evidence to say that that low dose is going

2:07:40to do anything for muscle.

2:07:42And it's probably not worth the risk to take the high dose when you could

2:07:47just lift weights. When you could just lift weights.

2:07:50Thank you for entertaining that somewhat tricky question because I think we're in a whole

2:07:59new self -directed medical care landscape, meaning even if people are working with doctors, they

2:08:07can generally find a doctor to make them feel better, even if it's not dealing

2:08:11with the specific issue. We need to be careful with the hormone therapy conversation though,

2:08:16because the data to date doesn't support the use of it for preventing cognitive decline

2:08:25or preventing cardiovascular disease. And there's a lot of messaging out there that is sort

2:08:31of telling women, if you don't take hormone therapy, you're doomed.

2:08:36And that's not accurate. And some women can't take hormone therapy.

2:08:42So we, we need to kind of hold two truths where this is, is really

2:08:47powerful and can be really effective for symptoms.

2:08:50Perhaps down the road, we'll learn that it has these other, other benefits, or it

2:08:56could go the other direction.

2:08:57You know, we've, uh, we don't know, but prematurely making claims about all of these

2:09:02benefits that it's going to, you know, improve your, your lifespan, increase longevity, prevent disease.

2:09:10That's not accurate. And women need to understand that something can be really valuable, but

2:09:19not a panacea. Or do you feel isolated because you're like, won't join this, hey,

2:09:25things are different for women message?

2:09:27Well, if it were true, I would say it.

2:09:32I mean, when I got into this field, of course, that was a question.

2:09:36That was one of the major questions that I had.

2:09:39And at the time, there were reasonable hypotheses to explore.

2:09:45And as scientists, we test those, and then we look at the data and we

2:09:54form our opinions based on the data.

2:09:56As a woman, if I honestly thought there were things we should do differently to

2:10:03optimize our results, of course, I would be doing them myself and telling other women

2:10:09to do them too. But the narrative that women need a sex specific program or

2:10:18nutrient timing guidance or a particular intensity of exercise or rep range or all of

2:10:29it, it makes women feel like they're being spoken to and being considered.

2:10:38And then they're part of this community instead of, oh, you know, just do what

2:10:43your boyfriend does or what your husband does.

2:10:45Or, so the narrative is very much, um, we know this works for men, but

2:10:52women are not men. And so obviously women need something different.

2:10:56The data says men and women.

2:11:00Is respond to exercise very similarly.

2:11:03I think the fitness space is so saturated that a lot of people think they

2:11:10need to kind of reinvent the wheel or that message that you and I have

2:11:15discussed, which is, you know, consistent, effective, progressive training.

2:11:19That's, it's not exciting enough.

2:11:21That doesn't give you the edge.

2:11:23And so you need something else.

2:11:25And that something else is often misinformation or something that just overcomplicates everything and makes,

2:11:33but when it's more complicated, people are convinced that you know something they don't.

2:11:40And that's why misinformation spreads.

2:11:43I don't think it could be made any clearer.

2:11:46And I appreciate your directness about it.

2:11:48The scientist in you, the person who looks at data comes absolutely clear in that

2:11:56state. And I'll say this, when I explored menstrual cycle phases, yes, I was interested

2:12:04in, you know, would there be differences in these different hormone profiles?

2:12:08But the other reason, the more exciting take home from the fact that there was

2:12:13no difference is one of the biggest reasons why we don't have as much data

2:12:18in female participants is because of the challenge associated with standardizing the testing and the

2:12:27training and the recruitment for people with equal length phases and standardizing ovulation timing and

2:12:35excluding people who are on contraceptives.

2:12:38It, it adds in a whole study on top of a study.

2:12:42And so if we don't have to do that anymore, think about all the research

2:12:47we can do in women or in mixed sex samples or in combined people on

2:12:51and off contraceptives, especially for sports science labs with fewer resources.

2:12:59They can be part of that mission to do more research in women if we

2:13:04don't have to worry about what was a huge barrier historically.

2:13:09There are more funds now being directed towards studies that include women or are solely

2:13:18directed at women's health and fitness.

2:13:20Having not come through science through that portal, I'm curious about how experiments are done

2:13:27in terms of resistance training and muscle growth and strength increases.

2:13:32Um, I'm familiar with some of Brad's work and your work.

2:13:36Um, do you think it replicates the gym well enough?

2:13:40I'm not being critical. I just, you know, I've seen studies where it's like, oh,

2:13:43you know, leg extension, you know, and then you look at looking at one rep

2:13:47max on the curl or so I'm not saying you guys did those studies, but

2:13:50a lot of times I think untrained subjects who then, you know, train for eight

2:13:54weeks doing something. And it, it's hard for me to know if, if it really

2:14:01carries over. It could, I mean, I ran a lab where we used VR to

2:14:04study stress. You'd say, well, is that real?

2:14:07It's better than just showing people pictures on a screen, but it's not like real

2:14:11life stress. You know, we had a falling thing and people think they're falling.

2:14:16We actually had people fall and physically in lab thinking because the visual world's going

2:14:21up in VR, but it's not like falling off a building.

2:14:24So are the studies of resistance training that you, one can do in a lab

2:14:28gym slash lab, do you like them?

2:14:31Are you satisfied with what's there in a lot of cases?

2:14:34Well, I've been involved in those more, you know, real world gym like program studies.

2:14:43And with that increase in ecological validity, you sacrifice some of the measurements that you

2:14:52can do. You take away some of that really tight control or within subject designs

2:14:59where you're having, you know, one leg perform one protocol and another leg perform another.

2:15:04So I think there's a time and a place for both.

2:15:07But if we want to look at molecular signaling, if we want to do these

2:15:14tighter controls where we just want to know that there was a sufficient exercise stimulus,

2:15:21and it's not necessarily about the fact that it was a leg extension versus a

2:15:27real world leg training program, then those are better.

2:15:35Because that kind of a study is not designed to say, and therefore everyone should

2:15:40do unilateral leg extensions. It's designed to say under these conditions, you know, with this

2:15:48hormone profile or with this infusion of nutrition, then what happens to protein synthesis.

2:15:56And that can be powerful and controlled in a way that a lot of the

2:16:03more translational exercise science studies are not.

2:16:09So I think both are important, but it really depends on the research question as

2:16:15to which is the most appropriate design.

2:16:19How long have you been training?

2:16:2014 years, something like that.

2:16:22So with that caveat, what is, people are going to want to know, what is

2:16:27your... general routine now, and how much does it look like or differ from what

2:16:34you described earlier? It's definitely changed over the years.

2:16:38I went through phases of really trying to maximize strength, and I got injured a

2:16:46lot. And then when I've been in phases of doing data collection, I've had to

2:16:55really scale back from my training because your schedule is not your own.

2:17:00And now I'm at a point where I like more frequency.

2:17:05So I tend to go more often, but not necessarily for really long sessions.

2:17:11So I go for a half hour, sometimes 45 minutes, but I like to go

2:17:16more frequently because then I feel like I'm better at kind of keeping up with

2:17:20the habit. And so right now I do a split of an upper body push,

2:17:26an upper body pull, and a lower body.

2:17:28And I just kind of rotate through that.

2:17:29So do you take a day off after six days of that?

2:17:32So push, pull, legs, push, pull, legs, take a day off?

2:17:36Or sometimes I'll do push, pull, legs, and take a day off, and then push,

2:17:39pull, legs, and take another day off.

2:17:41I'm not as kind of strict with it because it does depend on my weekly

2:17:46schedule, but that rotation kind of allows me to always be able to go in

2:17:50and pick up where I left off.

2:17:52And you're doing the sets, presumably the way you described before, getting close to failure

2:17:56or going to failure? Yeah, I will typically get close to failure.

2:18:02Occasionally I will go to failure.

2:18:04It kind of depends on the exercise.

2:18:05You know, I think if you're doing something particularly machine -based, then going to failure

2:18:10is pretty risk -free. Either the weight moves or it doesn't.

2:18:15And cardio in addition to that?

2:18:17Dedicated cardio? I will do some, but not regularly because I tend to be physically

2:18:27active, hiking with my dogs.

2:18:30And I prefer to be outside if I can, getting my physical activity than, you

2:18:38know, on a stairmaster on an inclined treadmill.

2:18:41But I'll do it if the weather is bad.

2:18:44I think the routine you just described sounds really doable.

2:18:48The routine you described earlier sounds really doable.

2:18:50Do you think mobility work is important for women or men?

2:18:56Dedicated mobility work? Not really, because I think if you are doing full body training

2:19:02through a full range of motion, then as you are warming up with those lighter

2:19:09sets and making sure that you are moving through your full range of motion, you're

2:19:12already getting that built -in mobility work.

2:19:14So if it makes you feel good, then great.

2:19:18But I think a, you know, a dynamic general warmup versus a specific, like, let's

2:19:27do some of the target exercise with lighter loads and move through that, they can

2:19:32be equally effective. I want to make sure I double -click on something you said

2:19:37earlier. You said the long -term outcomes of these hormone replacement therapy studies on women

2:19:44do not show improvements in cognition, etc.

2:19:48My understanding of that large data set was that women who started hormone replacement therapy

2:19:55as they entered menopause fared better than those that didn't.

2:19:59But those that started it after menopause, it didn't turn out well.

2:20:05Maybe I'm not up on the latest of these.

2:20:08Well, it depends which outcome you're interested in.

2:20:13But, you know, one of the biggest issues historically was in the early 2000s, you

2:20:20know, Women's Health Initiative was doing a set of studies looking at hormone therapy.

2:20:26It was older versions of hormone therapy.

2:20:29But ultimately, the goal was to evaluate the utility of that estrogen -based hormone therapy

2:20:37for reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.

2:20:42And they stopped one of the trials early because they saw that, you know, it

2:20:49wasn't reducing risk and that perhaps it was going in the other direction.

2:20:54And so they couldn't ethically continue the trial.

2:20:57But the media had a field day with this and kind of twisted things.

2:21:05And then the message to the public was that hormone therapy causes heart disease, hormone

2:21:12therapy causes cancer. And it took a lot of years to really unpack that to

2:21:19say, okay, what does the data actually say?

2:21:23What was that study designed to assess?

2:21:26Because it's one of the largest data sets to date on all sorts of outcome

2:21:32measures. But what it doesn't say is, you know, a blanket statement, hormone therapy is

2:21:40terrible for this person or for that reason, or here is when everyone needs to

2:21:47start it. Because to your point, there were people who were at a variety of

2:21:53ages and menopause status. So there's work that has come out since looking more specifically

2:22:01at outcomes like muscle mass, bone density, cognitive health.

2:22:08And then there's also trials that are more observational in nature or cross -sectional and

2:22:15saying, you know, can we look at this to identify some patterns that we could

2:22:19then go investigate in a clinical trial?

2:22:21And there is a tendency to kind of jump the gun and say, well, based

2:22:27on this potential pattern, then it looks like there might be this health benefit.

2:22:32And then the message gets misconstrued into if you take it, you know, you'll never

2:22:40get Alzheimer's or you'll never get dementia.

2:22:43And that's not an appropriate representation of the data.

2:22:47I'm just curious. So deliberate cold exposure, yay, nay, meh, depends?

2:22:54Depends. I think the most compelling benefits are probably the kind of mental clarity and

2:23:01psychological well -being as opposed to the physiology.

2:23:06Zone two? It's fine. It's certainly necessary with long -term endurance training goals.

2:23:14But if you prefer higher intensity or other forms of moderate physical activity, then do

2:23:20that instead. Weight vests. Skip.

2:23:24Really? I'm surprised. Please tell me more.

2:23:26Because weighted vests are being marketed to women as an alternative for resistance training.

2:23:32Oh. Walking with a weighted vest.

2:23:34And so walking with a weighted vest is not going to improve muscle or bone.

2:23:41It's not the appropriate stimulus.

2:23:42So if you want to use the vest to maybe do some squats or lunges

2:23:48or jumping exercises, then that might be an appropriate use case for it.

2:23:54But just going on walks with a weighted vest is not a substitute for resistance

2:24:02training. Arm hang test as an indirect measure of longevity.

2:24:06I would skip that. I think we have a lot of data in grip strength

2:24:10because grip strength is really easy to measure in clinical settings in people who have

2:24:15never exercised, including people who are on bed rest.

2:24:18So we know there's a relationship between grip strength and, you know, quote unquote longevity

2:24:23because grip strength is a proxy for overall strength.

2:24:27So instead of worrying about testing or training grip strength, we should be focusing on

2:24:31doing our full body resistance training.

2:24:34Jumping up onto or off of things specifically to get a longevity or safety effect?

2:24:40I'd rather incorporate some sort of balance training into your resistance training session.

2:24:46So we could do that through unilateral exercises or through something like a walking lunge.

2:24:51And then we're making sure that we're kind of working in full ranges of motion

2:24:55in different planes of motion.

2:24:57Because that way, if we have good balance and we have our strength and muscle

2:25:03mass and we're able to coordinate that movement, then if we start to fall, we'll

2:25:10also be able to catch ourselves.

2:25:12Dedicated abdominal work. And if it's a yes, what's your favorite recommendation?

2:25:17Any kind of abdominal exercise is not going to burn off your belly fat.

2:25:22So if you want to hypertrophy your rectus abdominis, then you need to treat it

2:25:29like any other muscle group and load it progressively.

2:25:33But I think most women who are doing hundreds of crunches are hoping that it's

2:25:42going to make them leaner, not that it's going to grow their abs.

2:25:47Favorite exercise that you don't see people doing that they might want to try with

2:25:53the appropriate instruction? Just like a fun one that you like.

2:25:57I like a single leg RDL, Romanian deadlift.

2:26:02And you can hold on to something.

2:26:03And so you're getting kind of a good glute and hamstring on a single side.

2:26:11And you can also incorporate a kind of balance component into that if you don't

2:26:15want to hold on to something for stability.

2:26:17I like to put one of those barbell pads on a low bar in a

2:26:24squat rack. So then you can put the top of your foot on the pad.

2:26:28And then it's more comfortable than putting your foot on the bench.

2:26:31And do you hold the dumbbell on the side that's doing the work or on

2:26:36the side with the leg back when you do those?

2:26:40You can do it either way.

2:26:42I prefer to hold it on the same side.

2:26:47Last question. Is there anything that's been scientifically shown to accelerate recovery from resistance training?

2:26:53Not just move out soreness, although if it does that, great, but to accelerate recovery,

2:26:58meaning to get you from the stimulus to the adaptation more quickly?

2:27:02A lot to attenuate soreness, but to accelerate the adaptation.

2:27:10If you want to accelerate recovery, then you're potentially compromising adaptation.

2:27:17So ice baths are a perfect example of that.

2:27:20You know, you're getting more recovery, but you're possibly.

2:27:23Possibly blunting the hypertrophic stimulus.

2:27:28So same with NSAIDs. Same with NSAIDs, yeah.

2:27:34They will block hypertrophy because they reduce inflammation.

2:27:37Right, and we want that inflammation, at least short term.

2:27:40Well, Lauren, Dr. Colenso Simple, this was amazing.

2:27:47First of all, thank you so much for coming here and talking with us, with

2:27:52the audience today. Thank you for being a rational scientific voice online.

2:27:58I will say with a high degree of confidence that what you described before, that

2:28:03it's very hard to get attention for the basics and for what's known in a

2:28:10landscape where other things seem to lend favor.

2:28:13I think there's been a lot of that now, and I'm confident that you're going

2:28:17to be the signal in a lot of noise so that things invert.

2:28:22And it's a wonderful thing that you're doing what you're doing.

2:28:25I really appreciate the clarity of your answers.

2:28:28And I also have to say I really appreciate your Instagram, et cetera.

2:28:32Are there other things that you're doing now that people can find you?

2:28:35Yeah, I write a monthly research review with three other PhDs, Eric Trexler, Eric Helms,

2:28:41and Michael Zordos. And we release that, like I said, monthly.

2:28:45And it's all sorts of topics in health, fitness, wellness.

2:28:49And we kind of break down the latest science and give you actionable take -homes.

2:28:58So if you're someone who likes the deep dive into the science and also wants

2:29:02to know, you know, in the context of the literature as a whole, what should

2:29:05I do, then check out Mass Research Review.

2:29:08Great. All right. We'll put a link to that also.

2:29:11Well, thank you so much.

2:29:12Definitely come back when there are more data to discuss.

2:29:16I'm sure it won't be long.

2:29:17And it'll be interesting to see how the landscape changes.

2:29:20But like I said before, thanks for being the signal in the noise.

2:29:24Appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.

2:29:28Lauren Colenso -Semple. To learn more about her work, please see the links in the

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2:30:08For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

2:30:11It's my very first book.

2:30:12It's entitled Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body.

2:30:16This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years.

2:30:18And that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

2:30:22And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related

2:30:29to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols

2:30:34that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook .com.

2:30:39There you can find links to various vendors.

2:30:42You can pick the one that you like best.

2:30:44Again, the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body.

2:30:48And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on

2:30:52all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

2:30:57And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science -related tools, some of which

2:31:01overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct

2:31:05from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

2:31:07Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

2:31:10And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter

2:31:14is a zero -cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we

2:31:19call protocols in the form of one to three -page PDFs that cover everything from

2:31:23how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

2:31:27We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

2:31:32All of that is available completely zero cost.

2:31:34You simply go to HubermanLab .com, go to the menu tab in the top right

2:31:38corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.

2:31:41And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

2:31:44Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.

2:31:47Lauren Colenso -Semple. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in

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The Most Effective Weight Training, Cardio & Nutrition for Women | Dr. Lauren Colenso-Semple