The Manosphere Report

0:00All right, everybody, welcome to the All -In Interview Program.

0:03Today, we are delighted to have two of the most important individuals shaping capital markets

0:10over the next couple of years.

0:11SEC Chair Paul Atkins is with us, as well as CFTC Chair Michael Selig.

0:17Welcome to the All -In Interview Show, gentlemen.

0:20Glad to be here. Thank you very much.

0:21Great to be here. Also with me, my bestie, Shamath Palihapitiya, who is known to

0:27participate in capital markets. I think there's a great structure here for us to talk.

0:33Many opportunities and then guardrails and things that we should be concerned about in such

0:39a dynamic time. Chairman Atkins, this is your third tour of duty since the 90s.

0:44Things have changed dramatically. So maybe just to start us off here, and I know

0:48Shamath's got a lot of great questions ready to go.

0:50I'm just curious, in your time, let's say the last 40 years or so, what

0:57have you noted here about capital markets and how they've changed and what's important for

1:02us looking forward? Well, thanks.

1:04It's great to be here and see both of you all today.

1:07Well, so I started out as a young lawyer in New York City doing corporation

1:12finance work, you know, new offerings and that sort of thing in the mid -80s.

1:17And it's there, you know, to be a startup company and to build your products

1:24and do R &D and all that, you had to go public in order to.

1:29So Apple and Microsoft, Advanced Micro Devices, all of those companies started off as, you

1:36know, IPOs. And so Andreessen Horowitz has a really, I think, a really good bar

1:43chart where they compare the companies of the early and mid to late 80s to

1:50today, where, I mean, it just basically demonstrates through the ROI that insiders versus the

1:58buyers of the public stock, you know, enjoyed from those early companies, the insiders being,

2:06you know, there's not much private equity or venture capital back then, but the insiders,

2:11meaning the officers, directors and whatnot, they had a relatively thin slice of the entire

2:16pie. I mean, everyone made out well, obviously, but the public purchasers in the IPO,

2:22you know, made out very well over the years and then had the lion's share

2:26of that. You look at today, the current situation where, you know, we have robust

2:31private capital markets and we have fully today half the number of public companies as

2:36we had 30 years ago, and it's completely reversed.

2:40The return on investment is, you know, mainly to the insiders, private equity, venture capital,

2:46the corporate officers and employees versus the public, because they're mature companies when they actually

2:54go public. So that's a huge change.

2:56The private markets are, you know, very robust and strong.

2:59But anyway, but the American capital markets are very healthy, I think.

3:04When you look at that back then, there was a real requirement for everybody to

3:11do an enormous amount of work, because to your point, these companies were quite young.

3:16You'd be a four or five -year -old company and you'd go public because the

3:20going public was not about monetizing anything.

3:23It was actually a fundraising moment.

3:25It was like a Series C or a Series D.

3:28I guess the answer is the reason it changed was probably because, to your point,

3:32there's all these returns. And so investors said, well, let's go capture these in the

3:37private market. for us and our LPs.

3:40But what it also does is then change the nature of how these markets behave.

3:43Can you just comment on the amount of time companies are staying private, the dearth

3:49of the IPO, because it has become a liquidity defining moment and is much more

3:54so than the financing moment and whether things should change?

3:58And if so, how do you want to change that and why?

4:01Yeah, well, it's a free market, obviously.

4:03So, you know, investors, we should allow the market to develop as it will.

4:08But you're exactly right. So now it's more of a liquidity event for insiders.

4:13And so what we are seeing now is in the private markets, you know, there's

4:19a lot of capital that's where people are willing to deploy it to companies at

4:24early stages and then to stay on.

4:27But at the same time, there are inhibitions for private companies to go public.

4:34And one of them is the cost of our rules to comply with our rules

4:40and the disclosure ones, especially where you have all the annual report requirements, proxy statements

4:45and all of that. And so quarterly reporting and so forth.

4:50So that is one big inhibition where things are not necessarily focused on materiality anymore.

4:57Are you allowed to convene a group of people and start to line item these

5:00rules out or change them?

5:02Or does it have to go through some much more robust process where there's a

5:06lot of competing reasons why some people, some lobbies maybe, may want these rules?

5:11Oh, sure. I mean, they're vested interests in everything.

5:13But that is part of my program for this year and going into next is

5:18to go through our rulebook.

5:20We need a spring cleaning.

5:22We need to clean out the attic, the basement and the garage and to really

5:26look at things unlike the agency has ever done before with a real focus on

5:31materiality. So that's one. The second to make IPOs great again is to focus on

5:37litigation. And so that is another thing that is a key inhibition, I think, for

5:43people to go from the private markets to public, the threats of class action lawsuits

5:47and vexatious litigation with every dip in the stocks.

5:52You have issues like mandatory arbitration, fee shifting, loser pays, that sort of thing, both

5:59of which Delaware has recently outlawed for public companies.

6:02But there are other states out there.

6:04And then the third is the weaponization of corporate governance around shareholder proposals, that sort

6:09of thing. So it becomes a pain to deal with the annual general shareholder meeting

6:14and that sort of thing.

6:15So those three are maybe not the only inhibitions, but there are three key ones

6:20that I've heard over and over and over again over the last 30 -some years

6:25from venture capitalists, private equity folks, investment bankers, lawyers, and et cetera.

6:30Mike, what are your top priorities for 2026 in the CFTC?

6:33Well, like Paul, I started off working in private practice at a law firm.

6:38And right around 2021, 2022, every week my clients would get a subpoena from Gary

6:44Gensler or from the CFTC and were faced with this onslaught of regulation by enforcement.

6:51They were faced with regulations that did not work for their business models.

6:56And these were crypto firms, prediction markets, artificial intelligence firms, as well as our traditional

7:02financial market participants. They were just relentlessly attacked by the federal government under the prior

7:07administration. So I really came into government to help right the ship, to help make

7:11sure that we have purpose -fit rules and regulations for a new innovative technology.

7:16and financial products. And so a big piece of my agenda has been crypto, our

7:21crypto asset markets, as you all, I'm sure, are tracking.

7:24There's some legislation that we're really hopefully working with David Sachs to get across the

7:29finish line and the president.

7:30But that's going to be a key piece.

7:32So the CFTC would have a broad amount of authority over the spot markets, and

7:37we're getting ready to implement those rules should the legislation get across the finish line.

7:42Another key piece of our agenda has also been modernizing and upgrading our rules and

7:47regulations for on -chain software systems, blockchain networks, and other types of digital asset products,

7:54regardless of legislation. It's really important that we have future -proof rules and regulations that

8:00are ready for the innovations of both today and tomorrow.

8:03And that's blockchain, but that's also artificial intelligence and other areas of technology innovation.

8:09So there's a lot of things we need to change within our regulatory framework to

8:13make sure that we're ready to accommodate that.

8:16Let me ask both of you guys a question.

8:17So this sits at the intersection of tokenization, crypto, and what I would call systemic

8:23risk. So if everything becomes tokenized and digitized and 24 by 7, what do you

8:32think needs to happen to make sure that the systemic risks to the system are

8:37managed? And here's what I mean.

8:39If you go on X, I've gone down the automated trading rabbit hole.

8:44So I don't know if you guys know, but there are these incredible, young, vibrant

8:49projects that are basically replacing a Citadel, replacing a Millennium, and they're building these automated

8:56agent -based hedge funds that are transacting across all kinds of markets all the time.

9:01And on the one hand, I'm completely attracted to it.

9:04I think it's totally democratic.

9:05It's the free market. It's like, let's figure out what's going on there.

9:09And on the other hand, I asked myself the question, where's the kill switch?

9:14Or where's the circuit breaker, if you will?

9:16And I just want to give you both a chance to talk about how you

9:19see these markets converge, and both the positives and the negatives of it.

9:23Absolutely. We need to be considering these risks as we're developing rules.

9:27And this, to me, is the whole reason we need to have a purpose -fit

9:31regulatory framework for these products and autonomous agents and all of that.

9:36Up until now, I think the approach has always been, let's apply the old rules

9:41and regulations, and that's going to work out and make sure that nobody can actually

9:46innovate and create something new.

9:47So we are embracing these opportunities in the markets.

9:51We need to study them and make sure that we understand the risks, but we

9:55can develop rules that accommodate that.

9:56So having a regime in place that says, go build, don't ask us for permission,

10:01but we need to study that work with the market participants, understand the risks.

10:05And on our end, we need to set up guardrails.

10:07So I do think there are unique risks when you have the ability for an

10:12agent to go out and deploy capital on basically an autonomous basis.

10:17And that's going to be something that our markets we've really never seen before as

10:21regulators, but that doesn't mean we have to stand in the way and block it.

10:25I think we need to really understand the risks, make sure that we have the

10:29right guardrails, whether that is us operating nodes on blockchains or really having technologists that

10:34are studying the contracts and the code.

10:36But I don't think there's any reason we can't have these technologies built here in

10:40America. I agree with that.

10:41And from my point of view, there are so many benefits to come from distributed

10:46ledger technology for the financial services industry, where we're right at the cusp of achieving

10:53T0, basically. you know, immediate delivery versus payment, receipt versus payment on chain by, you

11:01know, digital assets. And so that's pretty exciting.

11:04What we may even have to build in speed bumps, you know, to prevent fraud

11:09and things like that. But for many and for some instruments, it might not be

11:13possible. But your discussion there 24 -7 and all that, I think, is really an

11:19exciting prospect. But there are challenges from, you know, the liquidity perspective, you know, having

11:25a, you know, the whole concept of best bid and offer, what does that mean?

11:29So, you know, that's one that we will be wrestling with.

11:34But ultimately, at least our approaches and what Mike and I are striving to do

11:40in harmonizing the approach of our two agencies is to, and hopefully we'll get a

11:47statute out of the whole Clarity Act discussions going on on the Hill right now.

11:53That's really necessary to future -proof what we're doing.

11:56So there is no backsliding in the future.

11:58But we need to focus on, you know, if it's a security underneath and it's

12:03tokenized, it still is a security and it's still, the securities laws still apply.

12:08But it's up to us to make sure that our rules are fit for purpose.

12:14And as the whole purpose changes and as the delivery mechanism changes, we need to

12:21accommodate that. Unfortunately, in the previous administration, you know, it was said, oh, come in

12:26and talk to us. You know, we have a simple form for you to fill

12:29out. It's on our website.

12:31Well, ha ha, it's called an S -1.

12:32And it takes lots of lawyers and accountants to try to figure out how to

12:37do it for an existing company, much less for a new digital asset, a crypto

12:42sort of asset that, you know, where the form is completely inapposite.

12:47There's no board of directors.

12:48There are no offices around the country, around the world or whatever.

12:52It's, you know, just the thing needs to be adjusted so that it is fit

12:57for purpose. So that's what we're striving to do, going through a rule book to

13:01make sure it can accommodate the new technologies.

13:04So let's build on Chamath's conversation here and his points.

13:09One of the key dangers and innovations opportunities in the market is leverage.

13:14And we see it, obviously, hedge funds have been doing this for a long time.

13:18We're starting to see it in prediction markets, Mike, and we're seeing it in crypto.

13:24What is the proper amount of leverage and who should set those rules?

13:28Obviously, you have Congress making laws, you're responsible for executing them, chairman, in order to

13:34make sure the markets are orderly, and that you protect investors.

13:38So just walk us through what you think is the proper amount of leverage and

13:41your framework. And you've been at this for a while, as we mentioned, how has

13:45that changed over time? Educate us a bit on how we got to a world

13:49in which Bitcoin investors might be 100x or 50x and people might be leveraging their

13:55prediction market. And it seems like it has a function, but it also seems like

13:59almost every story starts and ends with leverage.

14:02Right. Well, so I think it depends on the marketplace and on the type, because

14:06obviously, you have banks, and they're all about fractional deposits and all of that and

14:12lending. So, you know, so we've gone through that back in 2008 and 2009 and

14:19the financial crisis and going all the way back to 1929.

14:22And then even in the 1800s, obviously, all the repeated problems with, you know, financial

14:28disruption and financial markets. So we have to be careful about that.

14:32There are all sorts of rules.

14:33for broker -dealers, for banks, in the futures markets, for margin and all of that,

14:38to put a lid on some of this and to have some controls around it

14:43and transparency. In the futures markets, the exchanges have a lot of power over their

14:51members and over margin and closing things down.

14:54We saw that even in the COVID time and whatnot, when the markets got hairy

14:59there. So those things are constantly looked at.

15:02The Fed plays a role as well with margining and the securities markets.

15:07So all that has to be adjusted.

15:09And now we need to look carefully at these new markets and then see what's

15:15analogous and see what authority we have and then make sure that we're not killing

15:21trading, but we also have to keep an eye out for the future to make

15:25sure that we're not allowing things to then blow up in our face.

15:29Here's a question that may sound dumb, so I apologize if it does.

15:33And this is to both of you.

15:34I think a lot of people don't understand, or at least I don't, where the

15:39SEC and the CFTC cooperate most effectively.

15:43But then as with all things, where does coordination maybe break down?

15:47Could you just explain that to people so that we understand and level set about

15:52what the expectations of each organization are and how you guys actually work together day

15:56to day when you have to?

15:57Having been around the two agencies now for 30 some years, I can really say

16:02that unfortunately the two, and not necessarily at the commissioner level, but certainly at the

16:08staff, there was a lot of sniping back and forth.

16:12So I compare it to two fortresses with no man's land in between.

16:17And so the no man's land is littered with the bodies of would -be products

16:21that people were unsure, like, is it CFTC?

16:25Is it SEC? And the crossfire between the two just killed the products.

16:29They never went to market.

16:30Single stock futures, portfolio margining, which has so much potential benefits for making the financial

16:39markets safer and more efficient.

16:41But Mike and I are setting out to change that, and I'll let you go

16:44forth on that one, Mike.

16:45Absolutely. The two agencies have unfortunately rarely worked well together, and we're really moving forward

16:52in a new direction with our harmonization efforts.

16:56We have a memorandum of understanding that the two agencies are working on hammering out

17:00and getting in place that will allow us to share information, coordinate on specific issues,

17:05and make sure that we don't have this turf battle between the two agencies going

17:09forward. And part of that starts, of course, at the top.

17:12Chairman Atkins and I work very closely together to make sure that we're coordinated on

17:16policy, but also at the staff level.

17:19So when exchanges and brokers and market participants are coming in to register or to

17:25offer a new product, we need to make sure that there's not this fighting over

17:28where they're supposed to be registered and what they're able to offer.

17:32Some of these products across jurisdictions, a great example, are some of the prediction markets

17:37products. Some of them involve public companies and securities and others are related to things

17:43like sports and politics, and that crosses jurisdictions.

17:47So we need to make sure that we have clear lines and that our market

17:50participants aren't subject to duplicative regulatory frameworks.

17:54And Chairman Atkins and I have talked about substituted compliance regimes where you have a

17:59primary regulator at the SEC or the CFTC, but we work together to figure out

18:04the cross -directional products so that you don't get stuck with duplicative regulation and registration.

18:09Another area is crypto where we...

18:12We've got blockchain networks, we've got smart contracts, we've got protocols that have both securities

18:16and non -securities trading on them cross -jurisdictionally, and we need to make sure that

18:21the standards are consistent because it won't work if we've got one blockchain for securities

18:25and another blockchain for commodities and nothing in between.

18:29So I think this is really critical that the agencies bury the hatchet and move

18:33forward with a harmonized and coordinated approach.

18:36As we look towards the future, I mean, to build on, yeah, there are two

18:39separate regimes and there are differences in approaches based on the statutes that govern us.

18:46But we also, in speaking for the SEC, we have a lot of flexibility with

18:52respect to exemptive authority and whatnot.

18:54So my dream is one day that, and I hope we can achieve that here

18:59in the next couple of years, to have like a super app approach where, you

19:03know, there is, okay, blurred lines between the two, but we've coordinated our approach.

19:08We've coordinated, you know, to reduce the friction between dually registered companies and to make

19:14everything work very efficiently. I want to ask a question around prediction markets.

19:19Let me try to set this up the way that I think about it.

19:21So I think that there is this inexorable tension that's always existed and will always

19:29exist between the investor protection that has to happen when you have publicly traded securities

19:35or commodities or derivatives, but then the capital formation process that on behalf of the

19:40company or whatever that wants to get access to this.

19:43And there's always been this kind of back and forth tension.

19:45The best example of this is Reg FD, where we said at some point, hey,

19:49let's hold the trains. If one person knows something, every person needs to know that

19:54thing. Makes a ton of sense.

19:55When you get into prediction markets, I think that this is going to stress test

19:59this assumption to the nth degree.

20:01And the reason is that there are just certain things that some people know.

20:04And we see it now every other day, there's an article about some prediction market

20:08that turned out to be right, or a bunch of other markets that were almost

20:12manipulated. It seems like it's ripe for this question to come up all over again.

20:18The corollary to this is Brian Armstrong tweeted something which I thought was quite an

20:23interesting comment about prediction markets, which is that certain prediction markets only thrive on insider

20:29information, which is to say that they know a secret.

20:33And so that's how the market can exist and actually conform to an outcome.

20:38And that creates these two sides.

20:40I just want to get your thoughts on prediction markets, what role do they play?

20:46How do we balance the capital formation that the market creates versus the investor protection,

20:51the insider trading that may be happening?

20:53It's a very complicated space.

20:55I'm not going to hold you to any of it.

20:56I just want to think out loud.

20:58Well, these markets aren't new.

20:59We've had them since the 90s.

21:00They started off with the electronic market in Iowa, where folks were predicting the political

21:05outcomes on elections. We've been surveilling and monitoring and policing fraud and manipulation in these

21:11markets for a very long time.

21:13And to the extent that there are contracts in certain markets, for example, what color

21:19Gatorade is going to be dunked on the coach at the Super Bowl.

21:23Some of this stuff is potentially at risk of being manipulated.

21:27And there's a risk that somebody on the team is able to go trade because

21:31they have special information about the Gatorade they put in the cooler.

21:35We have standards to make sure that those contracts should not be listed.

21:39And it's on the exchanges as the first line of defense, as self -regulatory organizations,

21:44to evaluate each contract and certify to us, the regulator, the CFTC, that those contracts

21:50turn. not readily susceptible to insider trading manipulation fraud and the like and we saw

21:56actually recently a call sheet one of the the prediction markets brought two enforcement actions

22:03against participants one involved a contract uh related to mr beast's youtube channel where one

22:09of his employees insider traded based on information of when a video was going to

22:14launch what was in the video and the same sort of authority that you have

22:18at the sec around a duty of of uh you know care to your uh

22:22employer is prevalent in our markets so to the extent somebody insider trades on information

22:28we police that and and it's really important for folks to know it's not just

22:32securities insider trading we've got it in the commodities world as well and the exchanges

22:37are policing that we're policing that and to the extent folks are listing contracts that

22:41are susceptible to manipulation there's consequences to that we can reject those contracts or we

22:46can police fraud on the back end but there is a cop on the beat

22:49there and i do want to caution that insider trading is is is not something

22:55that's necessarily allowed in our markets but we do believe that markets are truth machines

23:00that they do create a really powerful source of information we've seen the hoaxes the

23:06fake news and the manipulation of the polls the prior administration tried to ban these

23:11markets ahead the 2024 election and they really increased turnout it showed that they were

23:16correct when a bunch of the fake polls were put out right ahead of the

23:19election so we really have to foster these markets here in the united states and

23:22make sure that they don't uh flourish in russia or somewhere else where they really

23:27will turn out to be a source of disinformation so we do believe it's valuable

23:31to have that uh trading and information flowing through the markets but insider trading is

23:37is still uh still illegal here in the us take us through some examples there

23:40mike like it's very obvious and clear to people who work at microsoft if some

23:45new version of software is coming out or the sales are dynamic and the numbers

23:48haven't been released obviously you can't trade on that you're going to jail it's insider

23:52trading if i am a reseller of microsoft software or a friend of mine works

23:57at microsoft and says hey things are going great with this new product we have

24:01and i make a thoughtful you know uh wager on a prediction market or if

24:07i intentionally do something like i'm a streaker at the super bowl was one that

24:11came up recently and i actually am the streaker not that i'm planning any of

24:15this to make the bet where are those rules where do they live and who's

24:20responsible is it the prediction market is it you or is it tbd because it

24:25does seem that there's a bit of gray area as chamath was sort of alluding

24:29to here and does this need to be codified and does there need to be

24:32a bit more education for the public on it a lot of the gray started

24:35off with the prior administration really trying to ban these markets and not facilitating proper

24:40rulemaking and guidance in the markets over the past year you know i've been in

24:44the office for a couple months now for the past year under the acting chairman's

24:48leadership a lot of these products have really exploded in popularity and so now is

24:53the time to put out guidance and make sure that we're not regulating my enforcement

24:57as the prior administration did but we are setting standards we are making clear what

25:02our statute says and that is that these contracts cannot be listed if they're susceptible

25:07to manipulation and we take that very seriously standard yeah yeah yeah so the exchanges

25:13are responsible for policing that and reviewing the contracts and they certify to us the

25:17regulator that they are free of the risk of manipulation and if there's manipulation the

25:23markets we're policing that the exchanges are policing that the exchanges are policing that so

25:26there are controls in place but a lot of these you Questions as to what's

25:30susceptible to manipulation are up for debate, and I think there's some risks.

25:35There's a possibility, you know, your example with the streaker, if somebody can just jump

25:39out of the stands and go streak across and collect on the contract, I mean,

25:44that's something that does seem potentially at risk of manipulation and fraud.

25:48And so we need to be careful about that.

25:50The exchanges need to be on the lookout for that.

25:52And if they're not, you know, there's consequences with us as a regulator.

25:55The markets should take the first step and make sure they're thoughtful about which ones

26:00to fire up to begin with.

26:01And we have seen that they are not saying, hey, this dictator is executed.

26:07They're saying this dictator is deposed or is no longer in power.

26:12That seems to be a very tricky one as well.

26:14Yes, Mike? Well, there's got to be integrity in the contracts.

26:17Our rules require that the contracts have, for example, certain fungibility and standardization and their

26:23derivatives contracts. This isn't simply just betting at a, you know, with a bookie and

26:28a casino. And so each contract, that's correct.

26:30You would look for, is it tied to an election or is it tied to

26:34a very specific event? Is there a risk that that event can be manipulated or

26:38insider traded? And the exchanges are evaluating that.

26:41And there are instances where something is insider traded and it wasn't something they could

26:46have foreseen. It wasn't readily susceptible to manipulation.

26:48And so they police that.

26:50They bring actions against the traders.

26:52And Kalshi did just this with some of its fines in the past few weeks.

26:56Let me ask a question about quarterly reporting, because maybe where there was the most

27:01manipulation in the past was around that, right?

27:04People would try to front run these quarterly reports.

27:06They would try to make guesses.

27:07Because invariably, you would find some people that had crossed the bright red line.

27:11But recently, Paul, President Trump said, maybe we should move to six -month reporting or

27:17one -year reporting. And it was really well -received by a lot of people.

27:22Do you think that quarterly reporting has sort of also killed the IPO?

27:27Meaning when we think about making an IPO great again, just the complexity and the

27:32burden of such short -termism, has it made the markets better or worse, do you

27:36think? Yeah, well, that's a great point.

27:38And I just wanted to add one kind of a little note to the previous

27:44discussion there that, you know, if something is a tokenized security, you know, the federal

27:49securities laws apply. And so that goes for insider trading, you know, with respect to

27:55trading securities, wherever they may be, you know, on the online or on an exchange

28:02floor or wherever. So anyway, but then to your point about the cadence of reporting,

28:08I think that's an important one.

28:09And we are going to come out with a proposed rule and seek comment on

28:15it. And I frankly am a bit agnostic myself, personally, because if you look at

28:20things, we haven't always had quarterly reporting.

28:23In fact, when the SEC was, you know, formed back in 1934, it basically codified

28:29the New York Stock Exchange rulebook, which at the time called for annual reports.

28:33So annual reports prevailed until 1955, and the SEC went to semi -annual reporting.

28:40And by the way, the UK did the same thing around the same time.

28:44And then in 1970, only did things go to quarterly.

28:48And then the UK parted way, they did quarterly as well.

28:52But then in 2014 or so, they changed to go back to semi -annual.

28:59But if you wanted to still report quarterly, you know, God bless you and go

29:02ahead and do that. So we're still at quarterly.

29:05And so presently. did send out a, you know, electronic message about that.

29:11And so, but our staff was looking at, we're looking at what we call filer

29:16status. There are all sorts of different categories of filers with different rules, like large

29:22accelerated filers, accelerated filers, emerging growth companies, and so forth.

29:26So we're looking to kind of simplify all of this.

29:29And part of that also is perhaps smaller companies could benefit from, you know, reduced,

29:36you know, cadence of reporting, but maybe not.

29:40They have trouble finding analysts to follow their stock.

29:44That's another thing that might be an inhibition to go public for small companies.

29:49And maybe analysts want quarterly, maybe they don't, maybe they would prefer semi -annual too.

29:54So I think this is a great debate to have right now.

29:56And you did have Barry Diller even taking the other side of it, where he's

29:59like, I'm just tired of giving predictions.

30:01I'm tired of playing this gamesmanship quarterly.

30:04I'm just going to release our accounting numbers every month.

30:07And y 'all can have fun with numbers as much as you like.

30:10But that's amazing, because you can do that now, right?

30:13You can have software that's so vibrant, that it can just Jason release a stream.

30:18And there'll be people that have, you know, developed agents and develop these AIs that

30:23will just process all of that.

30:24And they will then publish out a dashboard, and the whole thing will be almost

30:28real time. It could be real time.

30:30Yeah. And there are services that do semi -interesting things already that you can buy

30:35that maybe people with budgets for data search streams can do.

30:39Let's talk a little bit, Chairman Atkins, about the history of accreditation in this country.

30:44I think when you brought up Microsoft in the early part of your career, watching

30:48these companies go public, I did a little research while we were here and you

30:52were speaking. Microsoft and Apple went out with 1 ,200 employees each, and about $400

30:59million in revenue in today's dollars, $120 million in those dollars.

31:03So obviously, there was this incredible opportunity for you to create and place a bet

31:07on these companies as an individual with a stock trading account, and maybe move from,

31:12you know, one tier in societal wealth to another.

31:16And that's a big part of the American dream.

31:18But as we talk about private markets, the SEC has ancient rules now going on

31:24close to a century old to protect investors called accreditation laws.

31:28They apply to 95 % of the country, apparently, and about 5 % of us

31:34get to trade in some way in private companies where the value is created.

31:39The SEC has been challenged and charged with changing these, evolving these, and it never

31:44seems to happen. My perception is, which SEC chair is ever going to take this

31:49on because, hey, it's just easier to keep the status quo.

31:52But is there not an argument, I know there's some legislation now, to create a

31:56sophisticated investor test? So instead of you inherited a million dollars, you're qualified to buy

32:02stock in Uber when it's a private company, why not a sophisticated test like a

32:07driver's license? And you learn how to trade in private companies and you get to

32:12participate in that market instead of just saying to people, well, you can only participate

32:17in sports betting or blackjack in Vegas, but you can't.

32:20If you were an Uber driver or an Airbnb host or an HR person using

32:25LinkedIn as a private company, buy those stocks where you have an insight and you

32:30have an instinct into maybe purchasing.

32:32So talk about the accreditation test and sophisticated investor tests and your personal view on

32:37it. Yeah. Well, great point.

32:39And so, well, here's one chairman who is going to tackle that issue.

32:42And so we intend to do that, the accredited...

32:45investor definition. And so interestingly, I mean, to your point in the statute in the

32:51Investment Advisors Act of 1940, I believe, or Investment Companies Act of 1940, there's a

32:58definition of that, and it includes knowledge, not just wherewithal or sort of assets that

33:05you have, but it has the word knowledge in it.

33:08So to your point, why can't we have, and people have suggested this over time,

33:12an equivalent of a driver's test or something like that, or recognize somebody who has

33:17a CPA or, you know, a CFA or whatever, but, you know, maybe a type

33:24of Series 7, but, you know, not so complicated as that that FINRA administers.

33:31So part of the thing is like, who's going to make the test, who's going

33:34to administer it, and how do you get there.

33:37But anyway, but we can, those are issues that we want to tackle.

33:40And I remember when this issue came up when I was a commissioner back in

33:45the aughts, there was one comment letter that came in that really struck me, and

33:51it said, today I am able to, this is a comment letter, commenter speaking, today

33:59I am able to buy a hedge fund, a private asset or whatnot.

34:05But tomorrow, once you raise the standard of, you know, I have to have X

34:10amount of money of assets or income or whatever, I won't be able to.

34:15So what's changed? Why, why are you going to take that away from me?

34:19So why does a finance professor who makes a hundred thousand dollars and lives in

34:24an apartment and doesn't have any other assets?

34:26Why is he not able, to your point, to invest in some of these types

34:32of securities, whereas an heiress who just came into $10 million or something like that

34:38suddenly is. Now she can hire people to advise her, but they could be dummies

34:43too. I mean, who knows what they are.

34:45But so anyway, so I think we have to take a fresh look at all

34:48this, and we are going to do that here this year and with a proposed

34:54rule to address that. I have a question around the derivatives markets.

34:58Well, actually, before I ask the question, I want to ask about the futures markets,

35:02which is you have an enormous number of high -frequency trading firms that really dominate

35:08futures volume. Can you just tell us both the value that these folks are providing,

35:15is it truly liquidity or is it, and there's been some speculation about this, very

35:21sophisticated market arb? And if it's the latter, where do you think we need to

35:28do necessarily a better job?

35:30I think the best example is if you look at this, the volume of futures

35:32activities and spot prices of certain commodities, the basis is starting to kind of get

35:37out of whack. So just tell me about the market participants, part of these derivatives

35:42and futures markets and what you think about what's going on.

35:45Our markets have three core types of participants.

35:48We've got the hedgers, we've got speculators, and we've got market makers.

35:53And liquidity is really the result of all three.

35:56So there's going to be market participants that really rely on whether it's a cattle

36:00contract or a credit default swap product.

36:03They need to enter into these agreements to hedge key risks in their business.

36:08And then you've got folks that are willing to provide liquidity, whether they're speculating and

36:12taking another position on that for their proprietary basis, or they're doing so to make

36:17markets and earn a spread.

36:19And that's right. We're regulating these markets.

36:22We're making sure that the trades that are going big, obviously, kind of are on

36:24the way. So you're doing so.

36:24And we're not going to do anything like this.

36:24And then it's going to do something through have integrity and that folks aren't, you

36:27know, watch trading and trying to manipulate markets.

36:29There are some strategies that raise particular risk of manipulation or fraud, and we police

36:35that. We've taken actions in the past to make sure that the exchanges are not

36:40subject to illicit behavior and trading.

36:44And the exchanges, similar to my point earlier related to prediction markets, are a first

36:49line of defense here as well.

36:50They surveil their markets and we're in constant communication with them, as well as the

36:55traders were oftentimes sending information requests to traders about their activity.

36:59So I do believe that these all three participants are very important to make sure

37:03that our markets are liquid.

37:05So on that last point that you just made, which I think is a very

37:08good one. Post GFC, there was like the central clearing functions, right, to make sure

37:13that derivatives contracts were getting not getting out of control.

37:16And we had a good sense of systemic risk.

37:18But it turns out that one blind spot everybody has is to these bilateral swaps.

37:22I mean, I've done certain bilateral swaps with certain counterparties.

37:26It's not clear to me that you know that on the back end of it.

37:29Can you talk about that?

37:30And how you think that that should stay the same change?

37:34What that is, whether that keeps you up at night, whether it should keep us

37:37up at night? Sure. Well, I'm not a huge fan of Dodd -Frank.

37:40But in the wake of Dodd -Frank, we got swap data reporting.

37:43And these bilateral over -the -counter swaps are now generally all, there are some exceptions,

37:49but sent to swap data repositories where we're getting information on a daily basis as

37:54well as these third -party swap data repositories that compile that information.

37:58So the markets are much less opaque.

38:01We have transparency today. But my concern about the swap data reporting regulations is that

38:07they have really been a tool for enforcement divisions in the past where you've got

38:12so many different fields. It's really difficult to characterize each different type of swap.

38:17I'll tell you, when I was in private practice and folks started entering into Bitcoin

38:21swaps and crypto swaps, characterizing that as a type of derivative relative to cattle and

38:27wheat and other commodities really was a whole lot of legal advising and a lot

38:32of wasted money, frankly. So we need to simplify.

38:34We need to make sure that our swap data reporting regime is rational and coherent

38:38and makes sense for the everyday participant in the markets.

38:41You shouldn't have to go hire a high law firm just to enter into a

38:45risk management tool. But these markets, these developments post dot Frank, some of that makes

38:51sense. Some of them don't.

38:52A big priority of mine is going through rule by rule to make sure that

38:57all of our regulations are really the minimum effective dose.

39:00I have a question for both of you.

39:02Is there something that if you could borrow from the other person's regulatory toolbox, something

39:09that they can do that you cannot, that you would love to also be able

39:13to do? From my perspective, one thing for new products that the CFTC has is

39:18called self certification. So for repetitive products that, you know, once you go ahead and

39:25approve the general type of framework for it, then it's self certification by the markets

39:32and by the people who are, of course, coming forward with the products.

39:36We don't necessarily have that kind of thing.

39:41We do for some things like for ETFs and whatnot, where we've come up with

39:45rules that then, you know, then it's up to the market participants to abide by

39:50the rules and have their product conform.

39:52But on so many other products, we have a much more complex, you know, labor

39:58intensive, let's just say, approach to it that requires approval by the staff and the

40:04commission and that sort of thing, whereas it's much more streamlined on the CFTC side.

40:10Well, on our side, there's one regulation that I think's been really effective on the

40:14SEC's jurisdiction, and that's the alternative trading system.

40:19So on both sides of the house, we have full -born, very, very intensive exchange

40:24registrations. The SEC went ahead with a rulemaking that allows broker -dealers to then set

40:29up an alternative trading system, and it's really an exchange -light framework, and I'd love

40:34to see that on the CFTC side as well.

40:36Chairman Atkins, I want to talk about fund formation and the power of venture capital

40:41in the U .S. economy.

40:4220 % of the GDP of this country comes from venture -backed companies, 40 %

40:45of the S &P, obviously with the MAC -7 contributing heavily, comes from venture -backed

40:50companies that we all know and love their products.

40:53But fund formation for venture capital is ancient, and there are massive limitations on it.

41:00There's two ways, obviously, to address this.

41:02One is the path to accreditation for people to become sophisticated.

41:05We just spoke about that.

41:07But the other is how many people are allowed to participate in a fund?

41:11As but one example, when I raised my last fund, I had well over $100

41:16million in accredited investors who wanted to have a small bite of the apple and

41:21get into venture capital. But I can only accept $100 million.

41:23I can only accept $10 million.

41:25And it doesn't make any logical sense because, in fact, it would be better if

41:30more people could put in smaller amounts, many hands makes for light work, and more

41:35people could participate in this.

41:36This would have a dual impact on the economy.

41:39One, more startups would get funded.

41:41And two, more individual investors would get to participate in this very closed ecosystem known

41:47as venture capital. So I was wondering your thoughts on venture capital, specifically, and formation

41:52of what is the driver of the U .S.

41:55economy. Well, you raise a great point.

41:57But a lot of that that you're talking about with funds is statutorily mandated.

42:03And so there are two big exemptions in the Investor Company Act of 1940 that

42:11are pertinent here. And so those were adopted by Congress with a lot of debate.

42:17And whatnot. And so that is more difficult to change.

42:23And there are certain ways that we can change them.

42:25And so we are going to look at this.

42:27And there you have a lot of different types of accredited investors.

42:32You have qualified purchasers. You have also qualified institutional purchasers and whatnot, or buyers, rather.

42:39And so all of these things need to be, I think, looked at anew and

42:45where we have the authority through our exemptive power under the various statutes.

42:51We'll be able to use that.

42:53But I do think that, especially now, as we talk about opening up private funds

43:01or private types of products to a broader range of people, including to 401k plans

43:08and whatnot, we're working with the Department of Labor and the Treasury Department to address

43:14this. And we all feel very strongly that here you have to have good guardrails.

43:19You just can't open up the barn door wide open, that we have to have

43:24standards for what can go into these sorts of plans, 401k plans, pension plans.

43:30But retail investors are already exposed to the private markets through their pension funds, insurance

43:36companies, and all that. So all of this needs to have a fresh look.

43:41and, you know, come up with good new ideas to basically provide, democratize it.

43:49And just as a quick follow -up there, one that I think would be super

43:52easy is just, hey, 10 % of whatever your last two years average income was,

43:57or, you know, no more than 5 % or 10 % of your net worth,

44:01Michael. There are some common sense ideas here that would increase the amount of participation.

44:06Can you think of, Michael, any reason that we should restrict Americans from being able

44:11to participate in venture capital?

44:13Is there any argument here if there were some basic level controls, as I've outlined

44:17here, sophistication, taking a test, or a cap?

44:20You can only put 5K in.

44:22You make 150K a year, you can put in 15K per year.

44:25What are your thoughts, Michael?

44:26I'm a believer in free markets, and I really think that allowing more access to

44:31our capital markets is really a powerful thing for everyday Americans.

44:35We saw the ICOs, you know, the initial coin offerings where things just kind of

44:40moved into crypto, and you had all sorts of investments in different projects, and they

44:45were attempting to get under the radar of the securities laws, even though there are

44:50capital raises with different tokens.

44:53And I think the markets always find a way.

44:55So allowing for more access, decreasing some of the requirements around accreditation, I think that's

45:00a really great thing for the American people and really will just allow for people

45:05to have some skin in the game, and maybe they lose sometimes, but other times

45:08they really hit it big, and it's a great thing for everyone.

45:11Nature finds a way, right?

45:12Like, don't allow people to participate, they start doing ICOs.

45:15And when I looked at them, I looked at 100, Shemaf, I said, wow, 99

45:19% of these are white papers with spelling errors in them.

45:21These are not the real companies that you and I look at in our daily

45:24lives in venture capital. So it reminds me of what happened with crypto, which is,

45:28hey, it went offshore, it went to another stream.

45:30I want to talk about just the capital markets globally.

45:33We're in this very unique moment where there just seems to be this separation, where

45:38the American capital markets, and you two are tips of the spear, have enormous credibility.

45:43And then when you look at some of these other capital markets, Paul, you mentioned

45:46the UK, but I hate to say it so bluntly, but the UK is a

45:49disaster. It is impossible to raise money there.

45:51It's impossible to raise money or innovate in a European exchange.

45:55It's a little bit easier in Asia, but it's complicated.

45:59But then you do see some of these upstart exchanges that are trying to push

46:04and innovate in Abu Dhabi and KSA, etc.

46:06If you just take a step back for a second, I just love your perspective

46:09on what's going to happen to capital formation and specifically, what does America need to

46:16do to get this next couple of trillion dollars to be brought on shore?

46:21Well, first of all, I think our capital markets are the envy of the world.

46:25I mean, it really is amazing.

46:27When I travel through Europe or Japan and the UK and Middle East and whatnot,

46:34people really envy our huge capital markets and how robust they are, how fair they

46:41are. And it goes back to our rule of law and enforceability of contract.

46:44And that's the essence of what is the foundation of our freedom and our ability

46:52to innovate and have all these new products.

46:57So they would love to have that.

46:59Plus, I guess what they also really envy is our risk appetite here in the

47:08United States, where people have an equity investment culture.

47:13And that is really largely absent in Japan and in Europe.

47:19In a lot of ways, they can't get out of their own way because through

47:24their regulatory system and whatnot, I mean, ours is bad enough, but they, in many

47:29ways, take it to a different extreme with a very narrowly constructed code that really

47:35hamstrings them and is not very flexible in the future.

47:39So that's as far as if we can open up our markets as far as

47:44some of the things that we've been talking about here, as far as new products

47:48allow innovation to take place here onshore and then also to fix some of the

47:54things like the accredited investor standard and that sort of thing.

47:58I think we can then, to your point, turbocharge it to continue our growth.

48:05Crypto has been a bit of the Wild West and we have things, NFTs, ICOs,

48:10meme coins, they feel, they look like stocks to people, whether it's dollar sign Trump

48:17or dollar sign Doge, whatever it is, but they have a ticker symbol, they have

48:21a chart, they trade like a stock.

48:24What do we need to do in regards to crypto?

48:27What should, and where is the line between launching a crypto token and the public

48:33being protected there, Chairman Atkins, versus, hey, it's a publicly traded stock because for a

48:38lot of them, they get into it and they're the suckers at the table.

48:41It feels, it looks, it quacks like a duck, it looks like a duck, and

48:45so they buy it like it's a duck, but it's not a duck, obviously.

48:49So what, and then this was Gensler's, I think, you know, maybe a logical point,

48:55although his execution was poor, there was a logical point to, hey, we have rules.

48:59We can't let you break these rules for your dollar sign, whatever, if everybody else

49:04is doing their company properly, you know, and following this set of rules.

49:08So how do we evolve that to protect which is the top mandate, the consumer?

49:14Well, that's a great question.

49:15I think the real problem has been definitially, and so the kind of the very

49:21vague lines, and so people weren't sure they were, and as Mike was talking about,

49:26you know, people paid lawyers a lot of money to try to do it.

49:30Some lawyers just gave happy talk, and then people got in trouble with the SEC,

49:35and other lawyers just said, forget it, go offshore, you know, there's no use to

49:40even trying here in the United States.

49:42So that's part of what, you know, Mike and I are trying to do as

49:45far as harmonize. So if it's a tokenized security, then that's one thing under the

49:51SEC's rulebook. But if it's things like tokenized, so digital coin, a digital token, sorry,

49:59or digital tools or digital collectibles, then those sorts of things fall under the CFTC's

50:06oversight, and their rulebook is really more apposite for these sorts of things than ours

50:13is. But you have to have a logical oversight over things like that to prevent

50:20fraud. Because the one thing that really, you know, attracts people to our markets from

50:26overseas is that they perceive that there is, you know, that fraudsters do get caught,

50:31and, you know, we have protections around, as we've been talking about, inside trading, and

50:36things like that, trading on material non -public information by insiders.

50:41That is, you know, so we have a robust thing for that.

50:45Mike, unpack that for us, and maybe you could add to it the role of,

50:49sometimes we see celebrities promoting these things, and it just feels like it's a bit

50:55of, it was a bit out of control there for a bit.

50:57And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

50:57and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

50:57and, and, and, and, and, and you their job is to make it controlled.

50:59So what should the crypto community that wants to release utility tokens and participate here,

51:04what do they need to know going forward?

51:06We have to separate the capital raising activity and selling something for the purpose of

51:12raising capital to form a business when you're going out there and giving folks the

51:17white papers and the business plans and making promises to them from the actual thing

51:22that people are buying. The tokens themselves in many of these cases are just goods.

51:28As Sherman Atkins said, they could be a digital commodity, something that's an input for

51:32a network like Ethereum or Solana or anything else where you're using it for a

51:37function within the network. But the capital raise is something separate.

51:41And they could be collectibles like an NFT or a tool that you're using to

51:45run a command on a network, that sort of stuff.

51:49I mean, they're commodities or they're goods or things that potentially neither of us regulate.

51:54We don't go out and regulate widgets that are sold as part of a capital

52:00raising. The SEC has brought many cases over the years related to fundraising with chinchillas

52:05and whiskey barrels and all sorts of things.

52:08But we've not had those trading as securities in our markets.

52:12And we don't want that for the digital world either.

52:14As we start to wrap here, I have a final question, which is both of

52:19you sit on top, again, as I said, the most, in my opinion, important capital

52:25market in the world. You guys are responsible for the well functioning and the pass

52:30through of literally 10s and 10s of trillions of dollars.

52:33You are responsible for enabling and not slowing down just the great vibrancy of the

52:40American economy as reflected in these markets.

52:44That's the upside. The downside is that that also comes with a lot of pressure

52:47when you're in the bowels of the job.

52:49And obviously, I don't know what that's like every day.

52:51But what are the couple of things that the two of you think about at

52:54night? What are the critical risks to this experiment that you just know you have

53:00to get right or the critical issues that in the next year or two, you

53:04must get right for all of this to continue?

53:06Maybe Mike, we'll start with you and then Paul.

53:08Two big things concern me.

53:10The first has been this push of innovation offshore.

53:13We've got to get it back here in the United States.

53:15That's really what's built this country over the years.

53:18Thomas Edison didn't have to go ask for permission to go innovate.

53:22We need to make sure that our builders, our visionaries, our entrepreneurs have the courage

53:28and the confidence to come and develop new things and build here in our financial

53:32markets. And that means blockchain, that means artificial intelligence, that means prediction markets.

53:37We'll set the rules for it and make sure that it's possible to do it.

53:41But we don't want everyone fleeing to the Cayman Islands and the Bahamas and Russia

53:46to go do this stuff.

53:47So that's really concerning to me.

53:49I want to make sure that folks are back here in the US.

53:51The second piece, of course, is the risk to our system.

53:54If we've got too much manipulation and center trading fraud, I mean, why not trade

54:00elsewhere? And there's real risk to our investors.

54:03And so making sure that we have the right controls, customer protections.

54:07We can't have another FTX in the United States where funds are lost and there's

54:13an absolute fraud on our American people.

54:16So that's a really critical concern, balancing innovation with our financial system, the integrity of

54:22our markets. And we're going to do it, but it's definitely hard work ahead of

54:26us. And for me, so, I mean, I agree completely with the innovation point that,

54:32you know, we need to make sure that we are allowing people to.

54:36innovate here onshore. And FTX one is a great point where there was one part

54:41of FTX that didn't implode with the rest of it.

54:45And that was their investment in a swaps trading platform called LedgerX, which was supervised

54:51by the CFTC and examined.

54:53And they had their accounts segregated and all that.

54:59So no customers lost any money through that.

55:03And it still lives on today.

55:07So my worry is that we're fighting always the last battle.

55:12The French built the Maginot line and that didn't work very well.

55:16And then so we had the same thing coming out of the financial crisis.

55:20So we have to think ahead.

55:22We're confronting a lot of new challenges.

55:24So artificial intelligence, of course, is developing very quickly.

55:30But we're also seeing it on the fraud side.

55:33I mean, this horrible stories I hear about people who've lost their entire retirement nest

55:42egg through fraud, where there are confidence people who, you know, through all sorts of

55:48manipulative types of communications, then draw people in and get them to, you know, send

55:54off their money elsewhere, or even their their Coinbase account or things like that, where

56:00they give passwords away with, you know, these confidence artists out there.

56:05So we have to be attuned to that.

56:07We have to be the cop on the beat, because that's the real threat that

56:11will lead people not to necessarily, you know, invest their money here.

56:17But but I think, you know, we are a cop on the beat.

56:20We're, you know, out to make sure that we can find the bad guys.

56:23But we can't then put too much overwhelming, you know, restrictions on the good guys

56:30so that they can't innovate and can't come out with new products.

56:33Those are great answers. I think both opportunity and policing, I just want to end

56:37with a final thought. As these markets open up, wagering, stocks, crypto, we do have

56:44an issue, a second order effect that's happening young men, 18 to 30, 45 %

56:49report that they've had a problem with wagering gambling, and 10 % meet the addiction

56:54criteria, a third have placed a bet.

56:56The upside to this in my mind is we have a generation generation bet that

57:01understands capital formation markets, and how to participate in them.

57:06But we do have a downside, outcomes, outcomes, yes.

57:09And to really think about that.

57:11There's obviously a downside here, which is a very young, developing brain might not be

57:16ready for that. So so Mike, and then and then Chairman Atkins, what are your

57:19thoughts on how to protect these young men?

57:22Who you know, they're, they're excited about participating in these markets, but maybe their brains

57:26aren't fully formed and ready to take on that responsibility.

57:29I think education is critical here, we need to make sure that our market participants

57:34are providing information to participants.

57:38And we don't regulate the casinos and the gambling and all of that.

57:41And and I but I do believe that that is a key piece of their

57:44initiative as well to make sure that folks are informed when they're coming into the

57:48casinos. We should do the same at the federal level, make sure that our participants

57:52voluntarily, of course, this isn't necessarily something that we mandate on our derivatives exchanges.

57:57But I do think it's an important thing to be informing the public.

58:00And of course, we've got really robust standards on brokers and on our exchanges.

58:05And they're making sure that there's the persons that are participating in the markets have

58:10the ability to participate, that they're suitable to invest and participate in our markets and

58:14I think those controls, combined with some education, are really going to be important here.

58:18Jeremy Atkins. I agree with that.

58:20But it's not just education of the, in many cases, children, or adult young men

58:28and women, too. But it's also their parents, especially for the children, where I think

58:33there is a large ignorance on the parents' part as to what their kids are

58:39doing and with their phones or elsewhere and getting involved in these things.

58:44So I hear that from a lot of my friends, so just apocryphally there.

58:49But so we shouldn't forget that.

58:52The schools are important as well, but the signs of that sort of addiction are

58:58really important to recognize that and then take action.

59:04But we have the same thing with other sorts of gambling, lotto or lotteries and

59:08that sort of thing. So it's not just in the securities markets or crypto markets

59:13or elsewhere. But it's also on everyday things that we have to really watch out

59:17for. I love your suggestion, Mike, because I noticed Robinhood now, if you want to

59:22go trade something complex, puts, calls, spreads, everything, it forces you to go through a

59:28little wizard to make sure you understand it and to teach you what exactly you're

59:32doing. So I think education is so critical, and it can exist at the platform

59:37level. This has been an incredible hour plus.

59:40I want to thank you, two gentlemen, for joining us here on the All In

59:43interview. And we'll see you all next time.

59:46Bye -bye. Thanks, gentlemen. I'm going all in.

1:00:03I'm going all in. Bye -bye.

1:00:06Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Bye -bye.

1:00:08Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Bye -bye.

1:00:09Bye -bye. Bye -bye. You

Rewriting the Rules: The SEC & CFTC on Crypto, IPOs & the Future of American Markets