The Manosphere Report

0:22we're back hey we're back yeah it's been a little while because we've been foraging

0:36for docket items that aren't about ron yeah we've been in mercury retrograde big time

0:45worst mercury retrograde ever for sure i was told that this one was about minor

0:53interpersonal and bureaucratic snafus not war with iran a huge geopolitical perim blood moon yeah

1:03are you kidding me uh happy international woman's day americans really some years i feel

1:12like people i guess because no one cares about like feminism that much anymore yeah

1:19but i feel like in years prior it was americans were going to talk about

1:22it more yeah it was in this year it seems ghettoized in the russian american

1:28community once again yeah no one's really talking about it because we're at war with

1:34iran so right there's other things going on yeah well it did coincide this year

1:39with titsmas because um the weather finally flipped and we had one nice day so

1:45all the girls were out in full effect it's a i associate it with springtime

1:50yeah in general so it's nice yeah when it when it lines up like that

1:55the flowers and everything we're liberating the women of iran from the hijabs so they

2:00can go on only fans so they can get some real jobs i have been

2:12off of x for lund for lund yeah i went on today on my laptop

2:20and so kind of when the war started i was sort of like absorbing the

2:26news more ambiently yeah kind of normie style right um and then today i did

2:34the doom scroll yeah and it well you saw his son so we killed the

2:40ayatollah we attacked iran for israel and everyone knows it and then rubio admitted it

2:47and then like try to roll it back in this bizarre way wait did he

2:51try to roll it back yeah when or like trump did and then or netanyahu

2:57then was like ha ha ha he like he was like imagine trying to force

3:03donald trump to do something um the like anti -semitism criers are like you know

3:17saying that's like conspiratorial to imply that like it's a zog war it's a totally

3:24zogged war that no one wanted yeah that we didn't vote for it's a betrayal

3:36yeah and even if like nick fuentes vindicated yeah i mean even if um it's

3:47true that um it's not exactly like it's totally out of left field because trump

3:53does like have a history with iran like he took out soleimani in 2020 he

3:59struck the nuclear facilities last year but he did that for israel too unprecedented yeah

4:05but this is really full on and you know initially i was trying to not

4:12be um a doomer and look on the bright side because i i was thinking

4:18like okay we shouldn't really um use past historical examples because trump is like a

4:25new type of leader what do you mean with destabilizing the middle east but like

4:31they were projecting that it would last at least until into september no it looks

4:38really bad it's really bad when even howling mutant has his doubts you know it's

4:46bad i mean there's only so much plan trusting that i can do yeah and

4:52i i want to be like um reasonable and cautious and maybe there's something i'm

4:57not seeing but i don't know i don't see any it's already bad i've tried

5:03to like stay off of social media because there's just like so much chaos and

5:08paranoia and acrimony and it's like half of the tl are like war hawks um

5:14chest thumping over how like trump can do no wrong and the other half are

5:19former hardcore trump loyalists saying that they're now voting democrat and it's over you and

5:28everything just feels really rotten i mean it's over but it's not like we can

5:33vote for trump again yeah so i don't see the utility in like you know

5:39keeping up the charade like you can just call a spade a spade yeah we're

5:47taking a massive l here um yeah there seems to be like no real unified

5:53messaging on um you know the purpose and objectives of this war like marco rubio

6:00is basically blaming israel in a way that doesn't make the u .s look very

6:08good jd vance is silent um hegseth is like all in hegseth's being a psycho

6:15um you know we're hearing how people in the trump inner circle are at each

6:21other's throats well there's no pretense of regime change there's no like wmds yeah it's

6:29iran doesn't really pose a threat to us plus we bombed the bunker not even

6:36that long ago yeah we busted up their nuclear facilities so they're already like weak

6:45right now we're lashing out against them again and i think it's because israel is

6:51so unpopular that like they're just taking their they're taking advantage of of it while

7:00they can while they have like america under their control yeah and like they're the

7:06two articles that i read about it that i liked um were by um andrew

7:12sullivan and nicolo soldo and they were kind of more or less opposed but both

7:19made some good points um andrew sullivan says the war the israelis want is therefore

7:25not a war to make the middle east a new free zone which might be

7:29a legit u .s aim it's a war to ensure israeli nuclear exclusivity in the

7:33region allowing them to routinely attack their neighbors with relative impunity and he's really mad

7:39that this is uh that this war is like a betrayal of the interests of

7:44the american public yeah and that you get called an anti -semite for even saying

7:49so um and i thought he was correct in pointing out that like the under

7:5440s and the non -whites are not going to be swayed by like mike huckabee

7:59or lindsey graham in the way that like who is going to be swayed for

8:04i mean and then nicolo on the other hand has an interesting take um in

8:10that um he points out that the aims of the u .s and israel aren't

8:14exactly aligned and may even be at odds how so um he says this represents

8:22an immense risk to the global economy in the form of an oil shock inflation

8:25is a delicate point for trump but israel is willing to risk it for its

8:28own objectives meaning that is more than happy to sacrifice donald trump in pursuit of

8:33its own aims is the american public cognizant of this fact and his take on

8:38it is that unlike many voices critical of the history of the u .s presence

8:43in the middle east he doesn't view israel as the key driver of american actions

8:47in the region um though he says it's dishonest to negate minimize or even downplay

8:52the massive amount of influence israel and its american supporters have on u .s foreign

8:56policy i mean it certainly seems massive yeah i get yeah it's like more multifaceted

9:05he's but how there's no reason there's no real reason well i think he's like

9:13persuaded by the argument that there's like a more 4d chess element that the u

9:18.s is trying to like strategically choke off china's oil supply no way i it

9:27doesn't even make sense i'm gonna be honest i just like am not um qualified

9:31to speak on this or informed enough to speak on it so i'm gonna take

9:35the l and like stay out of it i'm worried about the straight of hormuz

9:39and i and i feel they the new ayatollahs the guy we killed son and

9:47that makes me want to that's like family was killed we just murdered his dad

9:50and his wife and he's way young oh my it makes me want even more

9:56of a hardliner yeah it makes me of course and he's it makes me want

10:00to have a heart attack like when i think about it and it's so um

10:04it's just so vile and oh and of course there was the um strike on

10:12the school in minab where like 160 school girls age 7 to 12 were killed

10:19um the little boy yeah waving goodbye to his mom and originally that was you

10:26well originally that was um blamed on israel and then um the americans blamed it

10:31on iran and now now it turns out that it's most likely um the americans

10:38fault and they struck the school not once but twice oh it's so savage it's

10:46so upsetting it's so like because what i liked about trump was that he made

10:52me feel patriotic yeah and when i feel like ashamed and not even sovereign you

11:00know like we're doing it for another country yeah all this yeah i don't feel

11:08that doesn't make me feel patriotic yeah yeah and um as as monica said you

11:14know nothing that trump achieved in his two terms will really matter if his legacy

11:20is tarnished by a long and costly war um i think it's even worse than

11:25that it's not just that his legacy will be tarnished uh and as much as

11:29i like trump i don't really care so much about his legacy it's that his

11:33achievements will ultimately be for naught you know like um you have this like historic

11:40opportunity to to roll back some of like i mean he hasn't even accomplished that

11:45much let's be real he's accomplished some really serious things i think in terms of

11:51like rolling back like decades of progressive governance or even making it a possibility and

11:57feel that way i would hate to see that squandered it just isn't like the

12:02final hour it does not feel like he's made america great again and i don't

12:08want it to go out like this but it definitely seems like it's it is

12:14real mercury retrograde hours i mean yeah like okay he's he's seen a lot of

12:18success in like sealing the border posing a challenge to like the um government and

12:24academic bureaucracies standing down some of like the cultural excesses of uh race and gender

12:31insanity but the culture war is not worth it if we're at war with iran

12:36well and if we're in a zionist occupied government anna it's not worth it for

12:47zog war yeah it just doesn't because the it's gonna oil is gonna get super

12:53expensive like it's apocalyptic it really is it's so bad you realize that that's gonna

12:58have like all these like second and third order effects on like um travel routes

13:07and supply chains yeah it feels really like iranians me too well that's the other

13:12thing i'm a big um uh persia head they're a noble and like they remind

13:18me because i so i watched the anthony bourdain episode where he goes to iran

13:22and then i watched a bunch of like 60 minutes interviews from like the hostage

13:26crisis and then like with the shaw a little bit before the revolution yeah just

13:31to get up because i really i'm not i'm like ted cruz like how much

13:34i don't know anything so i'm just trying to catch a you know catch a

13:38vibe and they remind me of russians because they're like oppressed soulful they went from

13:45serfs to living as like subjects of like a brutal ideological regime and but they

13:51have like their dignity and they're like they just the kebabs look great it just

14:01seems like it's so it's such a it's i'm just not convinced by the um

14:06claim that iran is like the number one global sponsor of terror because obviously they

14:16pioneered maybe like suicide bombings or their proxies did but like the vast majority of

14:26worldwide terrorism is committed by sunnis not shias it's coming about israel and false flag

14:32attacks and i don't want like again i'm i'm a fan and supporter of the

14:39iranian people i don't really um even care to go down that road even though

14:46i do feel for them and sympathize with them because i'm more concerned about like

14:50the american people and how this will blow back on them and you know it

14:56is ironic that trump not only ran on an anti -war platform but also on

15:01an anti -immigration platform and this could just unleash a new and unforeseen like refugee

15:08crisis that iran from the middle east in general that the um that america and

15:14europe are gonna have to absorb i wouldn't mind some more iranians over here honestly

15:21they seem discreet and kind i mean not when their um populace has been terrorized

15:28and their youth has been radicalized i mean they're all pretty much against the ayatollah

15:35yeah of course i mean they just there's no doubt that like they just want

15:39to live their life yeah and pete hegseth wants them all to die it's yeah

15:45and like yeah like lindsey graham is going around saying like oh we're gonna blow

15:49them to smithereens why i do think that like while iran does not pose a

15:57direct threat to the u .s they do pose a direct threat to israel okay

16:02which again really seems like what it's all about for sure and yeah there's there's

16:09gonna come a point if if it hasn't already where like just u .s and

16:13israeli interests objectives collide well they're all i saw the u .s is pissed because

16:19israel bombed some like oil storage storage for facilities and now there's like toxic rain

16:25but it's there it's it's a mess yeah it's really depressing yeah and yeah the

16:37timelines it's i'm just not happy with my logging on today yeah i'm just i'm

16:45like gonna stay off of twitter and like there was that video going around of

16:50curtis yarvin giving some interview that he's getting a lot of flack for because people

16:54are calling him like a doomer and defeatist and demoralizer subversive jew where he talks

16:58about like um oh you think mass immigration is bad already you don't know what

17:05mass immigration is going to look like i'm like a single issue voter in the

17:10sense like my issue is mass immigration i think that like what's at stake is

17:17western civilization and he's just telling it like it is i don't think that he's

17:23being like i didn't see the clip yeah but he's just spitting facts um but

17:29that sounds true i guess but honestly i voted for trump i wanted the ukraine

17:36war to end yeah i voted for america first yeah i don't i didn't vote

17:43for a war in the middle east yeah i mean i didn't think that i

17:48wasn't holding trump to some like purist yeah isolationist like but can we circle back

17:54to greenland can we like get back can we like do that instead yeah let's

18:02get back to annexing greenland instead of carpet bombing tehran oh it feels i mean

18:13i wasn't super sentient during the iraq war yeah but it seems worse i don't

18:21know about that i mean it's too soon to say but i don't mean durationally

18:24i just mean like you know everyone knew the wmds were fake i guess yeah

18:28but there was still like a pretense yeah and i felt at least like the

18:37neocons of the bush era still felt a need to like justify themselves which seems

18:42to be like all this gobbledygook about uh spreading spreading democracy and liberating women like

18:48they had at least they had like a noble lie and we don't even have

18:53that we don't have nothing we have no reason to be there except israel yeah

19:02and no one likes that yeah and i israel at this point in time is

19:07probably um the most isolated and disliked globally than it's ever been yeah it's their

19:16last ditch effort and bb's rabid yeah and it they they seem to be facing

19:22a pretty uncertain future i guess this is good for them in the short run

19:25but maybe not so good for them in the long run they worship death so

19:37it's hard because i'm so emotional you know i'm i'm so easily like disappointed or

19:44radical you know yeah i'm like um it's just too hard yeah and i saw

19:56somebody talking about how um they were previously miffed at michael tracy for um refusing

20:01to take a side and being a non -partisan but increasingly his pov is looking

20:07like it's the right one what do you mean like because you know he's not

20:13beholden to anyone and the right accuses him of being like a leftist and the

20:17left accuses him of being like a fascist i mean yeah you just can't trust

20:22politicians well yeah that goes without saying but but i did have trust in trump

20:29i saw a clip of alex jones getting all almost like he was a crying

20:34what is his stake in all of this well now he's saying that trump's being

20:39manipulated he's kind of like doing more of a schizo cope or like the deep

20:44state is misleading him um but yeah he was just kind of like i needed

20:52this i believed in maga yeah and like i just feel so betrayed basically what's

21:04tucker on about i haven't been following along with that he had soger yeah um

21:09he's you know he's anti anti -zog yeah he's at odds with trump right now

21:18that's all i know he's been kicked out of maga trump said he's not even

21:21maga but i feel like trump's not maga yeah i don't know again the one

21:28again unless like i'm not seeing something and there's like some long game that we

21:33as mere civilians are not like privy to i'm sure there is but it doesn't

21:37justify already this level of like waste dysfunction carnage yeah suffering and it's going to

21:48reverberate you know it's like every day hey that it goes on it's like of

21:52course yeah it gets worse yeah um i saw um a clip of steve bannon

21:59on the war room and he said i'm not a wildly enthusiastic supporter of this

22:03war if iran ends up being a chaotic mess i don't care we have 25

22:07million illegal aliens here trump talks about a world war ii style happy ending israelis

22:12don't want that they'd much rather have a mess in iran i guess i more

22:18or less sympathize with that position i mean yeah trump's like actual deportation numbers are

22:27on par with like obama's yeah you know we can get an old we can

22:32get a democrat that's moderate on immigration and accomplish the same thing that's the thing

22:37i don't even know about that because like you know the the groipers are doing

22:41their usual bit about how they're voting democrat now and all that but like i

22:47don't think we even need to get to that point because if trump has already

22:51lost the confidence of the base well trump can't run again right but i'm saying

22:55this this puts like the succession of maga under threat and probably puts the ball

23:03in the court of the democrats for the next few terms i think that might

23:08have happened anyway honestly because he doesn't really have a good successor exactly but it's

23:13a long when people talk about new scum and stuff it's like three it's there

23:18are three more years and a lot can change yeah you know mostly things don't

23:26change but then they do and like you have to kind of do think about

23:32the gestalt of things i probably just won't vote because i wasn't really much of

23:36a voter before and if i don't feel like really animated to i don't see

23:42the point yeah i mean that's a reasonable position but it's also like a very

23:47depressing position i'm i mean did you vote for anyone besides trump in the last

23:55election yeah i i typically just vote like republican down ticket now i mean they're

24:01all bad you know i'm not like a but in like a when's the last

24:05what's the last president you voted for trump but before that um the previous one

24:12i voted third party or independent i didn't vote for trump in 2016 i didn't

24:17vote over see i haven't voted at all i didn't vote in 2021 or whatever

24:23the last 2020 oh in 2020 i've never voted so in 2020 i voted for

24:29trump in 20 yeah i can't remember if i did in 2020 actually my point

24:37is it wasn't a priority for me and it's probably just gonna not be one

24:40again and now that trump's not you know not i shouldn't say now because i

24:45already couldn't have ran again but it's not it's we can't replicate that kind of

24:52thing yeah that kind of lightning in a bottle quality like i knew that that

24:58was going to be the case and whoever the republican successor to trump was would

25:04be like less of a fire brand less of like a like a man of

25:09history or whatever but like i wasn't expecting like a trumpian reich but i was

25:13hoping that they would put down roots to at least try to secure to ensure

25:19the health and longevity of the maga movement right i mean we'll see but like

25:31i said there's one you can only do so much plan trusting yeah and yeah

25:36like of course i have trust in the ultimate plan yeah broadly speaking um in

25:44god's plan that's what i mean but in the short term it does seem bleak

25:54but well i it just seems that whatever you or i may think that um

25:59there has been a lot of confidence lost in the maga movement and can you

26:04really blame people um even as you know again michael tracy has been pretty like

26:10bellicose belligerent on this and he um has been like contrarianly pushing back on the

26:17people who say that trump betrayed his base with this action by saying that like

26:22actually he's always he's he's always toyed with this idea more or less because he

26:27says all sorts of things there's all you know there's also clips of him it's

26:31i get it yeah we have some him saying at some point like i'm gonna

26:35i'm gonna obliterate them or whatever like two years ago sure yeah we didn't think

26:42he was gonna do it yeah and now people are kind of like teasing the

26:48idea that he might be thinking of like dropping a nuke on the asses which

26:54i don't really think it'll lead to that but you know there is a non

26:59-zero chance that would be devastating i still get upset about hiroshima honestly i do

27:06nagasaki i get sad i think about the loss and just the like the bomb

27:10is so you're like oh it's so like it is satanic it's just like an

27:18instrument of like total death that there's something so like yeah luciferian about it that

27:24like does you know oppenheimers like it doesn't seem like it should even exist yeah

27:32the fact that we've ever used it i feel like it's a stain on our

27:35history and to use it again for no reason would be like tragic yeah and

27:45like you know as as nicolo pointed out like if you strip away the the

27:49moral aspect and the domestic considerations and look at it objectively and by the way

27:55he's not a fan of this war um that it's the best time to hit

28:00iran because they're because we've already stabilized degraded their nuclear game yes sure duh i

28:08don't really like the messaging is very confused because if they don't exactly pose a

28:14threat then why strike them if not to destroy israel for israel a hundred percent

28:22i don't know how anyone can even deny that yeah when i was like barely

28:28even looking at the news i was like fuck really israel yeah it just is

28:35like the occam's razor you don't have to like contort yourself into some thing about

28:42like china's oil supply or whatever it's not that it's israel yeah i don't i

28:50mean i'm i guess i'm prepared to to stay open -minded and like uh consider

28:57the idea that there are other considerations at play but i mean i'm all you

29:03know i respond to information as i get it so this is the information i

29:08have and like the the other thing is like like i said to you girls

29:11like as a woman and a mother i'm very easily propagandized by um the deaths

29:20of children i mean it really like breaks my heart and it would be nice

29:25of course if the administration could fess up to the school incident and not try

29:36to save face but of course they won't but why even it's already so unpopular

29:41you may as well just but i get it it's all it's all built on

29:45lies yeah um and i think like you can say that in any war there

29:52are going to be extremely unfortunate civilian casualties of women and children and other innocents

30:00yeah war is hell that's why civilized societies try not to wage it yeah and

30:08yeah it is like i got i understand nicola's point how strategically it's a good

30:12time to strike iran if you want to strike iran but the problem is no

30:16one wants to strike iran yeah and i i'm also sympathetic to the point that

30:22it's much harder to get things done domestically than it is internationally because you're like

30:26curbed by all sorts of like internal i'm not sympathetic to that point at all

30:31because the why are you a comp like what are you accomplishing abroad yeah but

30:37just you're there's no point in just doing something because you can yeah but my

30:41feeling yes because you can't do something at home you should try harder to do

30:44something at home yeah if you're gonna go big or go home try to do

30:47something at home versus abroad and if you're gonna do something abroad you better have

30:53a you should have a good reason that benefits america and this has none of

30:58that yep um you see you've been watching love story my personal iran is ryan

31:16murphy's love story you don't like it um no i agree with you that it's

31:20like mid but watchable i'm well the more you watch something the better it gets

31:26because of the time stockholm syndrome yeah time sunk fallacy it's called um and i'm

31:34watching i watch the whole thing yeah or like as it's coming out yeah so

31:38now i'm gripped now i'm like it's an atmospheric master me and in our like

31:45this is like zombie backwards stagnant culture we get to watch this like dead people

31:54porno yeah which is what i get to watch these corpses recreate the paparazzi photos

32:01that we know and love i love that it is like a void porn slob

32:09it's better than slob it gets like the pilot i think it's not fair to

32:16judge uh the merits of a show on yeah i agree with you like we

32:22watch that like segment of like maureen callahan and megan kelly where she was railing

32:27against the expository dialogue um who is that lady why what's going why does she

32:33hate carolyn beset kennedy so much i don't know good question like what is going

32:38on because i sent you today yeah she wrote an article because there have been

32:43um it's been a real like cultural flashpoint that's like sparked all these like they

32:52had like a jfk jr look -alike contest in the park today did they in

32:58new york yeah um but yeah maureen colahan in the daily mail wrote the real

33:04carolyn beset was a violent deeply disturbed cokehead with a humiliation fetish the lies must

33:09stop her friends are telling the truth and it's ugly and then her friends aren't

33:15really there's no tea really spilt in the article she didn't have any friends she

33:19didn't have no friends yeah um she says if the truth about her were more

33:23widely told more commonly known and accepted no woman in her right mind would idolize

33:28her that's not true she is what modern women idolize she's a volatile people like

33:34that she's a humiliation fetish yeah people like that she beat up her boyfriend yeah

33:39and got multiple abortions it's not her um classic minimalist style it's not the tortoiseshell

33:48headband yeah and her perfectly platinum blonde hair um in his now out of print

33:54memoir carolyn's ex -boyfriend calvin klein model michael bergen writes that beset had two abortions

34:00both babies his and confessed that she lost a third pregnancy while dating jfk jr

34:04she was selfish she went after her close friend's boyfriend she told a ck colleague

34:09who worshipped her to dump an otherwise great boyfriend because he didn't make enough money

34:13her mantra was date them train them dump them beset which is in the show

34:18by one man she dated before jfk jr a working actor whose brother went on

34:22to television fame to dinner with her friends where she would proceed to mock him

34:26to his face for being so besotted with her did you see did you get

34:30to the episode yet where um he gets the letter no so he's out playing

34:35football with his boys and then when he gets home there's a letter anonymously penned

34:39letter in his duffel bag about like basically that marine marine's article yeah about how

34:44she's like a conniving and he like shows it to her and then she freaks

34:48out she's like how could you believe this about me totally flips the script he's

34:52like baby i'm so sorry i made a mistake she starts like ignoring him icing

34:56him he's sending her flowers he's chasing her uh -huh she won in the end

35:00except she tragically died yes which is a sort of winning of its own i

35:06mean i think you know the most romantic thing about um cbk and uh jfk

35:13jr was that they died tragically in a fiery plane crash when they were young

35:19and beautiful they would have been so embarrassing she probably would have stayed kind of

35:24icy and cool yeah she probably would have prayed into politics and like you know

35:30he's they're better preserved in amber the way they are yeah yeah she would have

35:35like tried to have some kids with ivf when she was like 43 years old

35:40i bet she didn't abort his baby yeah who knows it's all like hearsay because

35:46she's got a heir to the kennedy fortune yeah maureen callahan yeah really really really

35:53really um took a hating to the dialogue the because it was yeah like really

36:00like on the nose that's and unsophisticated which you know as you and others have

36:07pointed out is kind of what you have to do in a pilot episode to

36:10establish like the characters and the pacing there's like a point where episode one of

36:15the sopranos it's tony being like i'm run the mafia i'm the underboss of the

36:21new jersey mob and i answer to you and you're my therapist dr melfi there's

36:28like some point where some i forgot who the character was but he says like

36:32they said the same shit when your father appointed me u .s attorney of the

36:36southern district 30 years ago it's good it's good to know what's going on you

36:42know um yeah i don't that really didn't like stick in my craw so much

36:50i kind of like accepted it as a fact yeah we're setting the scene yeah

36:57um i think what i don't know if this bothered me but it dawned on

37:00me that this series and maybe just like ryan murphy's work in general is like

37:06a great example of that famous untranslatable russian word bush list which means like uh

37:15pretentious vulgarity basically yeah but that's what's good about it sure yeah it's got like

37:24a classy veneer but it is still kind of like tabloid oriented yeah um and

37:32it's got the great you know new york in the 90s it's just a fun

37:37like atmosphere well the vulgar part for me was that a lot of that like

37:44um like set design scene design um costume design etc didn't really land because it

37:54looked way too contemporary like the city looks like it does now more or less

38:03i thought it did they did a good enough job maybe yeah the the outfits

38:10his were better than hers but it dawned on me like that that like the

38:14styling and the proportions were off like her clothing was a little bit too tight

38:18and a little bit too tacky it's not like perfect it was very aritzia coated

38:28a little bit but not as bad as the the bar was set really low

38:31when they put out those like press photos um that we talked about yeah um

38:38on a prior episode but there is it's it it does feel to me like

38:48a testament to how like there was something special about them that can't be replicated

38:57like you can make the exact same dress i'm talking about the wedding dress because

39:03the last episode but and like yeah with like the candlelight it almost kind of

39:09looks like her in a moment but then yeah and the photos are well done

39:15enough but they're the there's an episode where they get in the fight in the

39:18park right the famous paparazzi shots and i thought sarah pigeon did a lot of

39:23really good hair acting where she's like putting in a ponytail taking it down fighting

39:27but like messing with her hair the whole time so that it's like because yeah

39:31when in those photos like she's hugging in ponytail they're in the park it's down

39:36like just pragmatically she must have been doing something like that like i think she

39:43does have her mannerisms down pretty well yeah i would agree with that and so

39:47it kind of gives an impression like a for effort she's trying but the real

39:51thing is just it's never going to be that good yeah and you can expect

39:55that and you almost can't fault any like modern recreation for that because there's just

40:01like some stuff that's like intangible lost in translation whatever um but there's a platonic

40:07ideal and this is like striving towards yeah and this is like a cheap facsimile

40:11but it's like fun and watchable and whatever um the casting i think didn't land

40:18for me it's funny that um the actress's name is sarah pigeon nominal determinism she's

40:25got a kind of a bird like yeah she's she's like i guess very pretty

40:30and symmetrical but her features are almost like too bland and delicate and gray she's

40:38like a pigeon she's like a hot like she's like every hot girl that you

40:42see in the easter west village and he's like every hot guy that you see

40:46in the easter west village they're like a west village couple he's hot he looked

40:51gay yeah which you know but neither of them is as magnetically attractive as the

40:57original they're just not no i agree um carolyn and i think she does a

41:07good you know i i do think she's well cast but yeah yeah like an

41:15actor is basically never gonna have the charisma of like a real charismatic person because

41:24they lack the thing that made carolyn special was her like intact sense of self

41:30that she projected which was like entirely false and fabricated because apparently she was like

41:36a domineering insecure coke whore and this show does portray her in an extremely positive

41:43light and i know i know this bitch wasn't like that yes as a super

41:47like cool composed boss bitch who knew what she wanted and got it there's a

41:52really funny part um where she rises through the ranks of um the calvin klein

41:59management and is almost solely responsible for um discovering kate moss she's like is this

42:07this is the reject pile like they're looking through model photos and they're like contemplating

42:12like cindy crawford or something and she's like it's her we need her and it's

42:17like a black and white like headshot of kate moss yeah but is that not

42:23true i don't think it happened i didn't i didn't fact check that one but

42:28yeah there's a lot so daryl hannah wrote a little op -ed yeah in the

42:36times of lamenting how poorly she's portrayed in the show uh drie hemingway plays i

42:43thought she was she was amazing i was she was good by her performance i

42:47was like i was like did they like de -age -ify daryl hannah i was

42:51like she she looks just like her she was incredible compared to everybody else she's

42:57fantastic um but yeah she really nailed like the spurg energy and this kind of

43:06like needling actressy person which is like john like really really good but yeah not

43:12kind of a villain on the show yeah which is understandable daryl hannah had a

43:16real problem with that um but obviously um because she received threatening messages bitch no

43:24you didn't you didn't how who's getting in touch with you like who's thinking of

43:30if i tried to send you a message i wouldn't know how to find you

43:34like who is threatening you um yeah she she's basically upset about her portrayal in

43:40the series because She's portrayed as, like, this bratty, stuck -up, self -absorbed, whiny coke

43:46head who's, like, throwing parties in his loft.

43:50And he's upset because she's inviting all sorts of, like, strangers and never -do -wells

43:59into his inner sanctum to blow lines off of his family heirlooms.

44:04And while I can sympathize with her for, you know, feeling, like, jilted and blindsided,

44:11it's a really bizarre thing to react to, especially given her age and her intelligence

44:16at this point, supposedly. I get it.

44:20Like, you want to set the record straight.

44:23But she's doing herself no favors.

44:24She's, like, really, you know, not getting ahead of any of the rumors.

44:28She's not beating the bitch allegations by being a bitch about how she's portrayed on

44:32the show, which, like, yeah, I'm higher IQ than some people.

44:38So I can watch a show and be, like, this is, you know, a fictionalized.

44:46This is a narrativization, a dramatization of the real -life events as they occurred.

44:50I, like, understand intellectually that Daryl Hannah wasn't, like, a villainous person.

44:57Yeah. That she's meant to be, like, a foil to Carolyn.

45:01And she's smart enough to realize that herself.

45:03In that essay, she says, Storytelling requires tension.

45:07It often requires an obstacle.

45:08But a real living person is not a narrative device.

45:12There is also a gender dimension to this thinking.

45:14Popular culture has long elevated certain women by portraying others as rivals, obstacles, or villains.

45:19Isn't it textbook misogyny to tear one woman down in order to build up another?

45:24Kind of, no. It's textbooks like screenwriting.

45:26Yeah, so I don't, take the gender out of it.

45:30It's not about that. Yeah, they obviously, yes, they want to give you a positive

45:36account of Carolyn Bissette. So they have to create some negative foils, which may or

45:44may not be JFK's prior romantic conquests.

45:48Yeah, no shit. But it's really nothing personal.

45:51Move along. But again, I get it.

45:55Maybe, you know, sure. I agree.

45:57You're allowed. I understand why she would be, like, missed.

45:59And she's allowed. They did, you know, fictionalize her in this show in a light

46:04that she didn't like. And, you know, so she does get to say her piece.

46:08I mean, it is funny how she was diagnosed with autism, which I guess she

46:12walked back later. But, like, she's clearly, like, not a real autist.

46:17She's stealing autism valor because real autists, like Michael Tracy, don't give a shit about

46:22how they're portrayed in the media.

46:25So true, Anna. Such a good take.

46:27Like, what are you talking about?

46:28A real autist would never write an article like that about all the charity, how

46:36they don't do cocaine and do charity instead.

46:39They would be on Twitter writing threads about how a regime change is not an

46:44adequate explanation for what's going on in the Middle East.

46:51And then Jack Schlossberg keeps making statements about how his uncle, he's a huge drama

47:00queen who courts the paparazzi.

47:03What did he say? I didn't read that article.

47:05He said a bunch of stuff like he's been chiming in about how it's, like,

47:11grotesque and exploitative and how, like, this is his family and stuff.

47:16Well, it is grotesque and exploitative, but so is your family, by the way.

47:20And that's, like, the show is kind of about that.

47:24It's about how the Kennedys, like, don't belong to themselves.

47:28And so you have to just let us have it.

47:32Camelot isn't, you know, and you're, like, such a low -tier Kennedy.

47:36Yeah. I think I said this in the group chat, but what's crazy about the

47:42Riz levels of JFK Jr.

47:44and CBK, is that they already were, like, Nepo.

47:48Yeah. And then, like, this new crop of Kennedys, I guess just Jack Schlossberg.

47:55Uh -huh. Like, the way the Riz just drops off so quick.

47:59Yeah. You had JFK. Yeah.

48:02Then JFK Jr., not as, you know, not presidential.

48:05But hotter. Hotter. Hotter, like, you know, had his own thing going on.

48:10Then you have Jack Schlossberg.

48:12Uh -huh. TikToker. Yeah. Like, not just bringing nothing to the table.

48:19Yeah. And has that, like...

48:23Crisis actor. Barely, if that.

48:28Gersh client. Damn. That makes one of us.

48:39Yeah, I guess on that note, my big issue with, like, the dialogue wasn't the

48:45exposition, which is forgivable enough.

48:47It was, like, this very, like, sinister homosexual coded thing where, like, the characters are

48:55constantly discussing their romantic prospects, which doesn't happen in real life, and also their media

49:03portrayals, which also, I think, doesn't really happen.

49:08I think it does, if...

49:09I think it does, if...

49:09you're hounded by paparazzi sure but i doubt like um like there's a scene in

49:16in a garden where um jackie o and jfk jr are like having this like

49:23in -depth uh conversation about what kind of woman he can hope to get given

49:30his reputation jack you'll always be a kennedy yeah and her like weird warbly voice

49:41that was like the worst casting by far naomi watts i like i like to

49:46see her sure happy she's getting the work yeah you know who else is pretty

49:51good um it's the the meryl streep daughter mamie gunner as um caroline caroline yeah

49:58she's she's good yeah honestly i would if i were you look the part watching

50:03the show the fight in the park awesome uh the wedding but i i'm not

50:11even such a massive like cbk fan yeah i like her i think she's stylish

50:16yeah um but all the fanfare that's like sprung up about i feel like every

50:21article being written now even in like reputable outlets is like how to dress like

50:28caroline beset kennedy and then like looks maxing explained like the incel call like they're

50:34all like explainers about what mogging means or like like slop about caroline beset kennedy

50:43and like the new yorker like like the tea the bar is on the floor

50:50um it's like really depressing i i am like um um ride or die like

50:57long -term caroline beset fan i like her i've always liked her i've always thought

51:03she was like one of the most stylish and beautiful women alive that's why i

51:07like her i don't really care that she was a coke whore or a domestic

51:11abuser i don't i don't i don't find that element of her character whether or

51:18not it's true particularly attractive because it doesn't matter but yeah yeah i don't like

51:24her for her moral qualities yeah i like her moral compass yeah she wore yoji

51:30and polya what do polya color like a prowling lioness yeah and she really she

51:36does what is her sign um she's a capricorn oh she says she says it

51:42in the or her character says it in the show she could have been a

51:44leo yeah he is he a leo maybe she's probably got a leo moon or

51:54rising or something um she's like the the feared female capricorn very powerful honestly i

52:04know he's november 25th that's also a cap or a sag a scorpio i don't

52:13know god it's crazy how much we talk about it this and we're bad at

52:16it yeah yeah i'm looking yeah the the daryl hannah article was really outrageous because

52:27then she goes into um he's a sag okay yeah a sexy a vegetarian yeah

52:33sexy loves the finer things i think that actor's adventurous and risk -taking even though

52:44he's clearly gay for pay like every other actor but i like don't i don't

52:48love him because um jfk jr even though i guess if if i were to

52:53psychoanalyze him which i don't really care to do he does seem like um a

52:58shameless media whore so the the show's portrayal of him as the guy who's like

53:03on the fence about um being publicly scrutinized seems like fake and gay because he

53:12clearly ate it up and they both did i think that was the nature of

53:15their um union was that they understood how hot they look together they understood the

53:21power that they had over like the public consciousness and they like milked it for

53:27all it was worth even as their relationship was like falling apart at all times

53:31and so much of her mystique yeah and like revisionism i guess except for maureen

53:37what's her last name callahan yeah she's like the michael tracy of campus at kennedy

53:43yeah she's carrying the torch um yeah she's like when michael tracy lashes out at

53:48whitney webb who i still i don't really know who that is but he really

53:50hates her and has like an axe to grind against her but i think it

53:57might have even been in vogue it was like some article it was like how

54:00fashion is armor yeah and like she gets really mystified as this kind of like

54:04really discreet person and like that's why she dressed like that because she like didn't

54:09want to be seen yeah and like i think maybe she even believed that about

54:13herself but she clearly i wouldn't be surprised if she was a leo virgo cusp

54:19honestly maybe because she's i mean she's a capricorn obviously but i feel attacked well

54:25you know what i mean like that tension of like wanting the discretion but then

54:29also wanting the attention being a huge attention whore yeah yeah and i'm sure she

54:33was very like um plodding and calculating about you had it i mean like if

54:38she was truly truly private she wouldn't have pursued that relationship yeah and callahan claims

54:44that she essentially um not not daryl hannah but carolyn beset really um wormed her

54:51way into the kennedy family mythos and like sought him out and wanted to trap

55:00him into marriage again i don't know how true this is but it seems plausible

55:06i mean i think there probably was genuine love between them sure i want to

55:12believe in a love story uh riley calls it the fighting show because there's always

55:19women yelling yeah and i'm like please can we watch it he like doesn't know

55:23who carolyn beset even is doesn't care but she i mean what's her background she's

55:30like um connecticut connecticut catholic who was um a lower tier nepo baby no or

55:40not even her parents divorced i imagine like upper middle class but didn't really have

55:45a pedigree is that the idea and wanted to catapult herself into the upper echelons

55:50of new york society because you know like frankly she understood that she was like

55:56a beautiful and stylish and intelligent woman she knew that about herself and she wanted

56:01the best for herself which wasn't i don't think she was as much of a

56:05fame whore as jfk jr like i think she yeah held herself in high esteem

56:15yeah and but was like in a very capricornian way kind of just maximizing her

56:22potential yeah you know like she would have been content in another relationship and another

56:27you know like as long as it was like um kind of the best outcome

56:32like i do probably think she was pretty calculating yeah i'm sure and it's like

56:38but i don't think she like had it in her mind the whole time that

56:41she was wanted to be famous or be part of like a political dynasty or

56:44anything like that yeah i think she was probably just like landing on her feet

56:47and like being anti -fragile and like exploiting leveraging the opportunities that became available to

56:54her if she went but she was like a shop girl yeah yeah maybe that's

57:01not even see like there is enough like i am probably just going to internalize

57:04this show is true yeah i mean like did you know daryl hannah showed up

57:08at jackie kennedy's awake and was being a huge bitch well that was like um

57:13daryl hannah's big objection because she's concerned that in the digital era entertainment and gossip

57:18become quote collective memory because while physical media degrades online lies endure so true queen

57:24i mean yeah that's why i like can't begrudge her for wanting to at least

57:29like get some it's it's pr you know you like have to say something or

57:34else like the worst version just proliferates yeah but i think like she's also a

57:38little bit confused and lying to herself about what her real motivations are because if

57:44she really didn't want this negative portrayal of her to persevere she would have said

57:49nothing because realistically the show is a blip on the radar and it's not going

57:54to become like a timeless prestige drama it's going to be something that like people

57:59watch yeah the first three episodes of love fun and enjoyable yeah like nobody's going

58:06to be nobody's thinking of daryl hannah in this equation no she's kind of like

58:11a side no i think really she's thinking about daryl hannah what she's really offended

58:15about isn't that they portrayed her in a negative light it's it's that they didn't

58:20like include her enough and that she was kind of sidelined probably yeah there's that

58:26great piece of dialogue where jfk jr says despite what you may think mom daryl

58:32actually really cares what you think of her and uh she responds like she's an

58:36actress she cares what everyone thinks of her jack so true um which she clearly

58:46does because she wrote this little article yeah that's written in this like very um

58:52like indignant but also like kind of sober and sedate tone like she's taking great

58:58pains to not sound super like aggrieved and hysterical she's trying to sound neutral and

59:03objective and make it about like um the the harms of like uh digital media

59:11or something i know she's like talking to chat gpt and it's like you're right

59:16there is a gendered element yeah just like affirming her yeah i didn't realize that

59:23daryl hannah was um married to neil young and like stole him from his ex

59:28-wife well in doing my not very autistic of her well that's this is the

59:32thing i didn't know about daryl hannah until she wrote this article and then i

59:35like looked her up yeah and then someone on reddit was like neil young's wife

59:40of 30 plus years was like dying of cancer and he cheated on her with

59:44daryl hannah and now they're married and like i'm like that's now that's love ryan

59:50murphy let's go love just totally eviscerate daryl hannah's character make a whole show about

1:00:00how she's a monster it ends with um neil young right quitting spotify because they

1:00:06platformed joe rogan and yeah and she's like a environmental activist she like yeah lists

1:00:15all of her like that part was so causes yeah she she says for decades

1:00:21my work has focused on environmental advocacy documentary filmmaking and animal assisted therapy for seniors

1:00:28living with dementia and alzheimer's that's so that reminds me of my professional life is

1:00:33built on compassion and responsibility the animal stuff is such a red flag and reminds

1:00:41me of nicola pence uh -huh brooklyn beckham's wife how she freaked out at victoria

1:00:47beckham for not helping her with her like dogs affected by wildfire business or whatever

1:00:53she was doing like whenever some like weird tacky bitch is like and i work

1:00:58with animals you're like okay because you like are horrible to people yeah you're using

1:01:06you're like um literal like literal pet cause to to browbeat and bully people into

1:01:14like acquiescing to your demands yeah you're just like what should i do with my

1:01:19life to seem like a good person and then you're like i like animals reputation

1:01:23is not about ego it is about the ability to continue doing the meaningful work

1:01:27i love like any career doing good work requires an intact reputation this is why

1:01:33i am choosing to stand up for myself now what work are you doing that's

1:01:38going to be compromised by ryan murphy's love story yeah and it's like if you

1:01:42are truly an activist and advocate then you should probably just allow your work to

1:01:48speak for itself and not complain about it in an op -ed all all true

1:01:58but i gotta say again i do get it i'd probably do a similar thing

1:02:02i get it because i'm such a hypocrite and every time somebody attacks me i'm

1:02:05like no you don't understand i am trying to school people on the mechanisms of

1:02:10the narcissistic psychology which we are all gripped by it is not a moral referendum

1:02:16i get it yeah i get it i'm like i wasn't that bad at adult

1:02:22beginners tennis class by the way that did that really i hate that guy wait

1:02:32what when the guy like wrote a tweet about it was when i got dropped

1:02:36from gersh which i gotta stop talking about honestly i swear i'm not obsessed with

1:02:40them not coping um but when all the nick fuenta stuff happened everyone was piling

1:02:45on me and some gay guy who i was in a tennis class with was

1:02:53like she was in my tennis class my adult beginners tennis class and she was

1:02:57the most uncoordinated woman in all of manhattan and then she never showed up again

1:03:03and by the way i didn't show up because that's when i went to the

1:03:05hospital with hib so it wasn't my fault and i wasn't that bad in tennis

1:03:10class well but this fact did you clock him at the time not as did

1:03:15you know who he was i knew he was gay so i figured he might

1:03:18have known who i was but i thought it was all good we were all

1:03:21just trying to learn how to play tennis i don't know how to kick me

1:03:25when i'm already down i know so true and i bet yeah watching it and

1:03:30seeing herself like you know she is portrayed really badly yeah but it's but i

1:03:37did divorce that in my mind like i didn't i first of all yeah like

1:03:41you said completely forgot daryl hannah was my character on the show moving on yeah

1:03:45trying to get to the tragic fiery plane crash right don't care about daryl hannah

1:03:51so it didn't retain any of that but when i was watching it was like

1:03:54oh but i think that's so messy that's really what bothers her at the end

1:03:58of the day that she's kind of an accessory not the um main attraction of

1:04:04the show well on that note should we talk about the women who regret having

1:04:09children who also regret being accessories they're just like me for real so this was

1:04:19a little while ago um but it was in the cut there was an article

1:04:25yeah um that was basically just kind of like anonymous testimony from women who regret

1:04:32having children yeah and it went from bad to worse because it um starts off

1:04:38with well there's three of them yeah and um here i'll i'll give the little

1:04:45breakdowns did you notice that both that article the cut i regret having children and

1:04:52the what outlet was the how should a white woman writer be vulture vulture yeah

1:04:58okay so this is all like under the auspices of new york magazine um both

1:05:03of the girls who wrote those articles have indian names well the one who wrote

1:05:09the vulture article is like some she's tomo which is a kind of indian yeah

1:05:17and she writes she's written some books of her own that look like real like

1:05:24diaspora kind of garbage diasporoid slop yeah um but i I was thinking, um, we'll

1:05:35circle back to that, but how that chick is kind of like, it's funny because

1:05:42she's kind of like a Salman Rushdie type of bitch, but she's putting the fatwa

1:05:47on Madeline Cash for being white and not deferential enough to identity grievance politics.

1:05:56This is what you have to look forward to with the Iranian war.

1:06:02Um, so there's three of them.

1:06:03I gave up everything I liked about my life to make children fit into it.

1:06:07A 34 year old road, Rhode Island, mom of a six year old and a

1:06:10three year old, everyone who wanted me to have a child knew they weren't going

1:06:13to lose much while my freedom and identity went down the toilet.

1:06:16A 30 year old European mother of a three year old, everything I went through

1:06:20was just like no big deal because the baby is here.

1:06:22Your existence doesn't matter. A 27 year old North Carolina mother of a one year

1:06:26old, but it really does go from like the least to most narcissistic because the

1:06:32first one is like regretful and unhappy with her decision, but has more or less

1:06:37come to terms with it and is doing the right thing.

1:06:40And then the last one is separating from her husband and leaving him to be

1:06:44a single dad. Um, which she says she's guilty about, but not guilty enough to

1:06:49stay. And she's basically like a walking, talking advertisement against adoption.

1:06:55She's adopted, not her kids.

1:06:57Right. But she makes this point that like, she has, she, you know, she goes

1:07:01back to therapy after having the kids and she has a breakthrough with her therapist

1:07:07where he's like, well, you wouldn't know how the mother child bond is supposed to

1:07:12work because you never had that yourself.

1:07:16Well, well, yeah, she's, I don't think it's an argument against, it makes a case

1:07:25against adoption. She definitely had something else happen in her early life because lots of

1:07:30people are adopted and have maternal attachment to the people who adopted them and are

1:07:36better off than they would be.

1:07:37She clearly does. And her therapist is like getting in her head.

1:07:40I don't think she does.

1:07:41Or maybe she's just like a total sociopath.

1:07:43And I was like one of those fringe cases who just like shouldn't have children

1:07:46and is right about. She probably shouldn't have children because she's, I think, traumatized by

1:07:52not having a mother. Because we don't really get much information about the circumstances of

1:07:58her. Yeah. The only information that we get that's pretty consistent across the board in

1:08:03all three of the cases is that they all feel like they lost their identity.

1:08:07Yeah. And they all have husbands who seem not only accepting of, but enthusiastic about

1:08:16the prospect of being parents.

1:08:20Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. I mean.

1:08:23And it, well, it made me think of that study that just came out that

1:08:26people were talking about before Trump struck Iran about how, as it turns out, if

1:08:34you financially incentivize women, the birth rate goes down.

1:08:38But if you financially incentivize men, the birth rate goes up.

1:08:42That makes sense. Which is like, you know, unflattering, but true.

1:08:48But you were saying the woman who hates her kid is a sociopath.

1:08:53I mean, I don't know.

1:08:54The adopted woman. No, I mean, well, okay.

1:08:56So at first when I read it, I was like, okay, there, it was like

1:09:02shocking, but they are like, I was like, okay, they're speaking candidly anonymously and they're

1:09:10voicing things that they know are shameful and being kind of like, you know, brutally

1:09:16honest. Yes. And I thought like, okay, well that has like value.

1:09:21Yes. Um, but then one thing that that last woman said, who again, I do

1:09:27feel when she mentioned that she was adopted.

1:09:31Yeah. I was like, I mean, not everyone needs to have a kid.

1:09:35I agree. And I'm being facetious, obviously, when I say like, she's like the best

1:09:39case against adoption. But the thing is with adoption, you really don't know what you're

1:09:43going to get. But, well, what's the alternative that she would like languish in foster

1:09:47care and be even worse?

1:09:49Yeah. Um, I mean, more so she's a case against like putting your kids up

1:09:55for adoption because you're depriving them.

1:09:57And then she mentions how her son has like behavioral problems.

1:10:00Yes. And then she was diagnosed with behavioral problems too.

1:10:03Or is that another one?

1:10:05I don't remember. She has ADHD.

1:10:06Yeah. And I think obviously, like, I don't have kids and I don't know.

1:10:14And I know it's difficult and I know that like kids can be difficult.

1:10:20But in her case, I couldn't help but immediately be like, oh, well, your son

1:10:26has behavioral problems because he can tell that you have That you're not interested in

1:10:30him and don't want him.

1:10:31Yeah. That you have like, yeah, ambivalent feelings about him and you aren't because like

1:10:39what a good mother does.

1:10:43And obviously good mothers also have kids with behavioral problems.

1:10:47But like, I do think basically, as long as you like, are able to affirm

1:10:52that your child is like a unique soul that you love.

1:10:57It's important. That is important.

1:10:59That is important. that you like don't resent yeah he can probably yeah children are

1:11:06very porous and perceptive and they can sense when you resent them and don't want

1:11:12them well here's the quote from her that really like stuck with me was she

1:11:17said it's been a year also all these people have pretty young kids yes so

1:11:23it's a little bit unfair to like you know she has a one -year -old

1:11:28she's had postpartum like yeah of course she's i mean she's breaking up her family

1:11:33i guess and uh but you know i feel feel like when you talk to

1:11:37people with adult children they remember the difficult years of early child rearing much differently

1:11:43and they like miss their kids and long for those days and like yeah perspective

1:11:46they don't these people don't have perspective necessarily yeah um and besides that's why i

1:11:52question why they should be given a voice well what was the quote that you

1:11:58were going to read okay so it's been a year genuinely if there is a

1:12:02hell i've been living in it since i gave birth my son has a low

1:12:06tolerance for frustration sounds like you yeah and doesn't apple don't and doesn't communicate other

1:12:11than whining screaming crying throwing things and pulling my hair sounds like you babe yeah

1:12:21where you think you learned that and like people probably are expecting us to be

1:12:27like snarky and catty and lash out at these women who again are anonymous and

1:12:31like told their stories um for i don't know what purpose maybe catharsis for them

1:12:38and awareness for the public whatever but i do think this is very this is

1:12:42like max sympathetic that they're like there is a lot of pressure on women to

1:12:48have this unilaterally positive experience of motherhood and then because it's socially unacceptable to say

1:12:56these things yeah um or like discuss these aspects of parenting yeah people end up

1:13:03internalizing lots of shame when they do have ambivalent feelings which they inevitably will of

1:13:08course it's extremely frustrating and exhausting to have children no matter who you are unless

1:13:17you're extremely wealthy and can just pawn off all of the hard work onto like

1:13:23um the help yeah i don't think anybody denies that there are like feelings of

1:13:31anxiety and ambivalence that come up but i question what the utility is of having

1:13:38this sort of like discourse in public and i guess my bigger thing my bigger

1:13:44take on this article is that i'm not interested in bashing these women specifically but

1:13:49i get again i question the purpose of this sort of journalism and i think

1:13:56like the obvious um like take that you might glean from it is that it's

1:14:02like classic feminist propaganda to deter women from having children but when you really think

1:14:08about it we're past that point already because the propaganda worked and women aren't really

1:14:12having children most women myself included are not like above replacement as like my haters

1:14:18are fond of pointing out sure and so to me this doesn't seem propagandistic in

1:14:26the in like a clear -cut obvious way and it seems more like a post

1:14:32-hoc rationalization like a cope to soothe and console women who don't have children and

1:14:40want them by saying like hey it's not all it's cut out to be you're

1:14:45going to take a hit to your identity and lifestyle yeah the the main complaint

1:14:49that they all have is that they lost their identity along the way and when

1:14:54you really think about it my question is like what even is identity and why

1:15:00do you think you're like entitled to it and somebody quote tweeted me talking about

1:15:07this article and said like it's much simpler even than what you're saying losing your

1:15:14identity is a polite euphemism for the fact that having children reveals what socioeconomic class

1:15:22you really belong to and usually most of the time it's lower than the one

1:15:28that you think you're in which is so true i think that's true and also

1:15:35the death of like a potential to like people harbor these delusions and if they're

1:15:40able to like that they'll be able to surpass yeah their limit and then what

1:15:45a child does is actually like remind you it not just reminds you but kind

1:15:49of like not that you can't be upwardly mobile once you have kids but it

1:15:53does like you're putting roots down you're like you know you can't just like take

1:15:58a whimsical opportunity to like which you're not gonna realistically get to do anyway yeah

1:16:04and like somebody said like snarkily like having kids makes you poor it doesn't make

1:16:08you poor it reminds you that you're merely middle class or poor or poor yeah

1:16:14it just reminds you of your station in life and that generally speaking most times

1:16:19you can't transcend it people rarely rise or fall in class and he was right

1:16:27right to a certain extent but don't they but generationally they do yeah i think

1:16:32and that's why people historically have had kids yeah is not just so that they

1:16:37could prosper more than them but like the idea that they might because you are

1:16:44like i think contemporary people have a harder time like with the foreclosure of opportunities

1:16:52yeah but they will be presented with regardless of whether they have kids or not

1:16:56it's gonna hit you at some point anyway you will be humbled and humiliated by

1:17:00life and then that one in particular that like bit in particular about like living

1:17:07in hell when i was watching the like footage of tehran burning and like toxic

1:17:16rain raining down on people and then because initially i did have kind of like

1:17:22a sympathetic and i am sympathetic to like these individual women sure yeah um but

1:17:28like what's so toxic i think about the antenatalist perspective in general yeah is that

1:17:37it's like people used to you think about everything that like and in america this

1:17:42is less true in people's like immediate history yeah but like my grandparents were born

1:17:50in during the second world war yeah and who knows what like my ancestors were

1:17:57up to before that but in a lot of the world like a lot of

1:18:01people have struggled to stay alive and have struggled to procreate yeah and um everything

1:18:09that people have like survived to produce progeny they even if they weren't like great

1:18:17parents or didn't like being parents it didn't really matter because they believed that like

1:18:22i think life would have them and they accepted it that life would find a

1:18:28way that like the human race would endure that there was like hope for the

1:18:31future yeah and it's not so much that these women are just like spoiled or

1:18:36selfish yeah it's like the there's just like a myopicness of not even thinking about

1:18:46the future it's really it's like truly very nihilistic yeah it is like truly narcissistic

1:18:51hate to use that word because it's like a preoccupation with the self but narcissists

1:18:57have kids yeah narcissists are healthier than whatever this is even because they like have

1:19:02progeny to continue their blood like a narcissist has children and isn't full of so

1:19:08much like neurotic strife about it necessarily yeah no christopher lash actually had a good

1:19:13bit about this where he talks about how um narcissism has morphed over generations and

1:19:19that like you could describe um the kind of like pioneering revolutionary men of history

1:19:28as narcissists because they were self -absorbed and self -invented but they were concerned with

1:19:37like a kind of manifest destiny not only like charting uncharted territories but like making

1:19:43sure that they're like that they were essentially immortal through their bloodlines which was a

1:19:49much more like positive narcissism than we have now which is like negative nihilistic inward

1:19:54looking self -defeating even mediocre people some of whom are also narcissists like felt there

1:20:01was a reason to go on yeah and that seems to be what's really missing

1:20:05is that there's no like notion that there's anything worth it that's outside of you

1:20:17yeah that that's what it is and when i say like narcissism again i truly

1:20:21don't mean like i don't mean it as a moral judgment like you're a bad

1:20:26um or evil person i mean that you're like trapped in this like uh like

1:20:33self -defeating bubble i was watching ryan murphy's love story and like doom scrolling twitter

1:20:39looking at like iran war takes at the same time because my attention span is

1:20:45so low and also i was a little bit bored by the show and then

1:20:49i like retired to bed and i was like walked into lenny's room and was

1:20:53like looking at him sleeping his like placid beautiful face and was like gripped with

1:20:57like this profound deep sadness because the world that he's inheriting is just so much

1:21:04worse than the world that i had growing up but that's it's so insert insert

1:21:10and ambiguous but that's always true and like that doesn't deter me from having children

1:21:18but it does like make me think and make me sad sure it is sad

1:21:23but i think it like people used to their you know people have like life

1:21:33finds a way or used to like people would find like people have children in

1:21:38war zones and like they don't like they probably have more children in war zones

1:21:41honestly but yeah their circumstance like the women in this article like their circumstances are

1:21:46so like everything they talk about even it's not like they want to like you

1:21:51know travel the world or you know make it a little bit of a little

1:21:54bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

1:21:54little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of

1:21:54a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit

1:21:54of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little