The Karol Markowicz Show: Why Young People Are Having Less Sex: Dr. Debra Soh on the ‘Sex Recession,’ Dating Apps, Porn, and AI Relationships
3/13/202625 mincomplete
0:00This is an iHeart Podcast.
0:02Guaranteed human. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeart Radio.
0:15My guest today is Dr.
0:16Deborah So, a neuroscientist who specializes in human sexuality and biological explanations for behavior.
0:23As a journalist, she writes about technology, internet subcultures, health, and the politicization of science.
0:29Her writing has appeared in Harper's Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times,
0:34The Globe and Mail, and many other publications.
0:36Her first book, The End of Gender, has been translated into six languages and was
0:41featured in the Daily Wire film, What is a Woman?
0:43Her new book is Sextinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy.
0:49So nice to have you on, Deborah.
0:51Thank you so much for having me.
0:53Longtime fan of yours, and I've always enjoyed how you make scientific concepts, understandable, I
0:59feel like, to regular non -sciencey people.
1:02I feel like me. What's going on that people aren't having sex anymore?
1:08Well, thanks so much for your kind words, and I've been a huge fan of
1:11yours as well, so I'm very excited to get to speak with you.
1:14So with Sextinction, my latest book, I was curious to see whether this concept of
1:19the sex recession is real, because I'd been hearing a lot about how people were
1:23not having as much sex as previously.
1:25And at the time, I thought this was overblown and that people were just creating
1:29a moral panic out of nothing.
1:30There was a study that came out in 2016 that showed that Americans were having
1:34less sex than ever before.
1:36And this was the case for everyone, all age cohorts, didn't matter if you were
1:40married or single. But what was most interesting was that this was especially pronounced in
1:45younger generations, so millennials, and this was expected to continue on in Gen Z.
1:50And so since then, multiple studies have come out showing the same trend.
1:53And more specifically, the number that I keep seeing is that one in three men
1:57and one in five women have not had sex in the past year.
2:00And again, this is especially prominent among millennials and Gen Z.
2:03So with Sextinction, each chapter is looking at a different potential explanation as to why
2:09this is happening. And my interest in sexual inactivity or sexlessness is partially because I
2:15used to study sex scientifically, but also because I think sex is a reflection of
2:19community connection and emotional intimacy.
2:22And so if people are not interested in having sex, then what is taking its
2:27place and what what is causing this disinterest?
2:29Right. So on this show, there's like we do an advice segment from time to
2:34time. And I really thought all of the advice questions I would get would be
2:38how to meet a guy, what to do in this relationship situation.
2:42But the great majority of questions that I get, I mean, I'm talking like over
2:4685 percent, I would say, are about friendship and how to make friends and how
2:50to talk to people and how to, you know, I've moved to this new town.
2:53How do I make a friend?
2:54But I've lived in this city my whole life.
2:55How do I make friends?
2:56I think that's the first step for people.
2:59But do you see that in terms of your sex research?
3:03Is it used to be you didn't need to have friends in order to go
3:06have sex. Right. So why is this now the case?
3:09How come we've moved to the situation where people don't know how to talk to
3:12each other and also don't know how to meet people to have sex with?
3:17I think screens and dating apps have played a big role in this.
3:20Social media as well has really warped the way people perceive themselves and how they
3:25perceive the opposite sex and how they think they should go about approaching the opposite
3:29sex or whether they should at all, especially for men.
3:31And my sense is men are really terrified post me to that their life is
3:34going to be ruined if they talk to a woman who is not interested.
3:37And also, I think some young women genuinely believe that if a man approaches you
3:41and you don't know him, that is by definition sexual harassment.
3:44So there's this very polarized dynamic between the sexes.
3:47I think also, like you said, with the question about making friends is we are
3:51increasingly lonely. We do have fewer friends on average than in previous generations.
3:56And part of it is that also people used to meet their partners through friends
4:00and family or through work.
4:01So all of those scenarios, I mean, I guess you can still meet people through
4:04family, but the likelihood of meeting someone through someone you know or through an everyday
4:09normal occurrence is much less common nowadays.
4:13And I think also to some extent frowned upon or seen as not as convenient
4:18because there's this perception that if you go on a dating app, at least I
4:22think this was the perception when dating apps first started getting popular, that it's so
4:25much easier that you can just go on, swipe, you can go through all of
4:28these potential partners in one sitting.
4:30You don't have to go through the trouble of going out to a party or,
4:33you know, making small talk with people you're not interested in.
4:35But I do think that dating apps have done a really large disservice to dating
4:40because they aren't really as efficient.
4:42I mean, what you see if you look at someone's profile, that doesn't really capture
4:45who that person is in any capacity.
4:48And then most people, as I mentioned in Sex Stinction, a lot of people who
4:51are on dating apps are not even really looking for a relationship or even to
4:54date or even to meet or to even have a conversation.
4:56Some people are just on there swiping for validation to see who might actually swipe
4:59back on them. And then there's the algorithmic aspect too, that you don't, you're not
5:04fully in control of whom you're being showed to and of the people you do
5:07swipe on, do they even see that you're interested in them?
5:10So all of these factors, I mean, in terms of like an evolutionary perspective, dating
5:15apps are completely unlike anything we would have ever experienced in our ancestral history.
5:19There's no time during which we would have been able to sit in one place
5:22and go through potentially hundreds of partners.
5:25in one sitting. So all of that combined makes people feel really demoralized.
5:29It makes them feel like there's really nobody out there for them.
5:31If you're spending a lot of time on, even if nowadays people use social media,
5:34even as a way to meet potential partners.
5:36And I just think the best way is going out into real life.
5:40But like you said, the first step of that is to have social skills and
5:43to have the confidence to do that, which is very difficult.
5:46So I think that speaks to potentially why people are reaching out to you.
5:49But I think that's great that people, you know, acknowledge that this is a step
5:52and that it is important if you don't know to ask for help.
5:55Right. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because I obviously I would think that the screens
5:59are playing a role in this, but my take or my guess would have been
6:03that, sure, the screens stop you from forming relationships, but how do they how are
6:09people having less sex because of the screens?
6:12I mean, they literally have a world of opportunity to meet people to sleep with.
6:16Maybe those aren't going to turn into relationships and maybe they're not going to get
6:21married. But how come the sex is being affected by it?
6:25I would think it would be the opposite.
6:27Yeah. Well, with the screens are a number of different.
6:29It depends, I guess, on the content that you're looking at.
6:31Pornography is one major factor that I talk about in the book.
6:35I think even something like social media, social media is essentially pornography nowadays as well,
6:39depending on the platform you're on.
6:40But also there was one study I found quite interesting that one in 10 men
6:44found that after looking at social media influencers, they were less interested in having sex
6:48with their partner. So these are even even within couples and people who are married,
6:52there's less of an interest in engaging with your regular sexual partner.
6:56And roughly one in 10 women also felt less sexually desirable after being on social
7:00media. So even when you have a regular partner, I mean, that's really interesting, too,
7:04because contrary to what you most people might believe, married people actually do have more
7:08sex than single people because obviously you're showing the bed with someone at night.
7:11So it's not like if you're single, even if you have a bunch of regular
7:15hookups, say it's a lot more time consuming, more effort to, you know, and then
7:19there are no bad, your boundaries are not as well defined and things like that.
7:22So if married people are having less sex, that speaks to like, really, there's something
7:27going on here. And then with porn, also, I would say because people are, I
7:31mean, this is predominantly men, but I think more women are watching porn, especially the
7:34younger generations, like Gen Z basically grew up watching pornography from a very young age
7:38because of their early access to smartphones.
7:40And so what happens is if you are regularly getting subtle, sexual gratification from the
7:45screen, that can become reinforcing.
7:47And I think also for men, I've heard from many men who have said this
7:50to me that watching pornography has actually diminished their interest in actually going out and
7:54meeting real women. And also, I mean, I think when you have the gratification that
8:00comes with, I don't know how graphic can be on your podcast, but I'll just
8:03leave it at that. Do as graphic as you want.
8:05From having an orgasm, you know, it sedates you to some extent.
8:08So not just in terms of your sexual frustration in that moment, but more broadly
8:13for men, especially, I think if they're scared to approach women, understandably that, okay, well,
8:17they know they don't really have to do that to get sexual gratification.
8:20They can just turn to porn.
8:21Right. You know, there was that joke slash truth that people are more afraid to
8:28speak in public than they are of death.
8:30And it makes me think that men being afraid to approach women, you know, I
8:34was a child of the 90s where AIDS was still going on.
8:37And I think that that was kind of still a concern for people, even though,
8:43you know, obviously it was more limited to certain populations and maybe we didn't know
8:47that so much at the time.
8:48But it seems like even then people were still having risky sex and the consequence
8:54was death. Here are the consequences like awkward interaction and people can't do it anymore.
8:59Do you see that or is that not right?
9:03That's a really interesting perspective.
9:05I think also COVID did something to us because the norm very much now is
9:08self -isolation. Right. And even if you are, say, in a couple, like it's crazy
9:13to me when I see couples in public, many times I will see them both
9:17on their phones, basically having an interaction with their phone.
9:21And then if they do interact with each other, it's to point at something on
9:24their phone, which is wild to me because I'm thinking, I get happy when I
9:28see younger couples. I'm like, oh, maybe, you know, it's not so bad.
9:30But then I see them on their phones and just not even speaking to each
9:32other. So I think there's something, there's like a normalization of always being on your
9:37phone, especially in public. So you're not talking to people.
9:39Whereas back then smartphones didn't exist.
9:41So we were forced to talk to you.
9:44If you're standing in line and you're bored, you're naturally going to turn to the
9:47person beside you and make small talk.
9:48And it wasn't seen as weird or as potentially threatening back then also.
9:52So I think the social norms and then also post -COVID, just people probably have
9:57habituated a little bit to this self -isolation.
10:00Does Sextinction offer a prescription for this?
10:04Do you have any solution that we can work towards?
10:07Yes. So I do. I do have an optimistic outlook on this.
10:11Really? Well, in terms of the potential, but the question is, is that actually going
10:16to come into fruition? We'll see.
10:17I wrote the book with the hopes that it will help people see what's coming
10:22down the line in, say, five years from now, 10 years from now, and to
10:25avoid the pitfalls that are associated with that.
10:27Because I think we learned a large lesson with, say, social media and smartphones looking
10:31back. But at the time, I think most of us were pretty clueless.
10:34We just thought as, oh, this is fantastic.
10:36I have a personal computer basically in my pocket at all times.
10:39What could go wrong? And so with these various technologies that I talk about, whether
10:43it is pornography and AI companions, sex robots and sex dolls, I talk about endocrine
10:51disruptors. environmental toxins, I think that's a big piece of the puzzle in terms of
10:55our physical health. And in some ways, we aren't even fully aware, even at this
10:59time, with as much awareness as we do have, you know, some larger forces are
11:05incentivized to keep this information from us.
11:06So if we are not fully physically healthy, and if our hormones are being messed
11:10with, especially for men and they're declining testosterone, we have no real hope of fully
11:15fixing this problem because our sex drive and our sexual interest is not going to
11:20be restored to what it would be otherwise.
11:22And I also talk about things like reproductive technology, the birth control pill, egg freezing,
11:27in vitro fertilization. And my goal is just to give people unbiased information so that
11:33they can make better decisions in their own lives.
11:35So I do think it's possible to turn things around, but I question whether that
11:40will happen because we all know how bad being on screens is, but we still
11:45are. Yeah, exactly. But what are the kind of changes that we're going to experience
11:52when we do have more robots around or AI is something that people talk to
11:58like the way that they do to a friend?
12:00You say you're optimistic. I'm kind of, you know, I'm generally an optimist, but I'm
12:04sort of pessimistic about this just because people are taking this safer route of not
12:09having their feelings hurt by talking to somebody in real life.
12:12AI will never hurt your feelings.
12:14AI will never be awkward or weird with you.
12:17And I see people leaning into that and treating AI like it's a person, like
12:22it's a friend. Yeah. That chapter I wrote on AI companions was crazy to me
12:27because it was so realistic.
12:28I wasn't expecting it to be as realistic as it is.
12:31And that technology is only advancing so rapidly.
12:34So like you said, people are falling in love with their AI chatbots.
12:38They are using AI chatbots as a replacement for dating and real life partners and
12:43friends. Because like you said, the chatbot will never tell you what you don't want
12:47to hear. If it says something you don't like, you can just click on a
12:50button and tell it what you want it to say next time.
12:53So over time, it learns what you prefer and it's not going to challenge you.
12:57It's not going to nag you.
12:58It's not going to give you problems.
13:00It's always going to be totally fixated on you and your needs.
13:02And so if you combine that with, say, the sexual aspect, which some people do,
13:06then again, it's like pornography, but it's much more interactive.
13:10It's an emotional connection as well.
13:12And so people's sexual and emotional needs are being met.
13:15So I do think more people are going to be turning toward this technology.
13:19And I would say even more so in women, because when you look at something
13:22like sex dolls and sex robots, that's primarily been targeted and I think consumed by
13:26men because access to sex is much more difficult for men than for women on
13:30average. But for women, because women place more of an emphasis on their emotional needs
13:35being met, especially in the context of a relationship, or we'll say women are less
13:40likely to have those emotional needs met in the context of a relationship, then the
13:44AI comes in as a really nice replacement in some ways.
13:47I mean, I think it could initially start as something that you use in tandem
13:50to your relationship. But over time, someone could easily say, actually, I prefer my AI
13:54to my real life partner because it's easy.
13:56Yeah, it's easy. It doesn't create any problems for me.
13:59It doesn't give me any additional stress.
14:01There's no uncertainty there. That's the other thing, because other people are very much, you
14:04know, they have their own minds and their own autonomy.
14:07So that's one way. And then I think for men also, we see a large
14:10segment of young men being shut out from the mating market because men are on
14:14average falling behind their female peers in terms of education and occupation.
14:19So socioeconomic status and women tend to want to date or marry men who are
14:24at the same level of status to themselves or people who are men who are
14:28more successful. So what happens is for these young men who cannot get access to
14:31any partners or women who are not interested in them, they're going to go further
14:35down this rabbit hole of not just the AI girlfriends, but also when this technology
14:39can be implanted into a realistic sex robot.
14:42I mean, I did a big investigation into sex robots and they are there.
14:46The technology is slowly moving in that direction.
14:49I mean, there are already people who are purchasing this technology.
14:52So I see it like both sexes are going to continue going in opposite directions.
14:58And ultimately, I mean, some people might say, well, what about for the purposes of
15:01procreation? You will need another person for that.
15:04But at some point, at this point, yes.
15:07But at some point, if it continues the way it's going, I could see it
15:11being that men who have the means can simply use either a surrogate or use
15:16a surrogate synthetic body like a robot, which they are developing this technology where they
15:21can implant, you know, and give birth that way.
15:24So they're not even reliant on really needing a woman.
15:28Terrifying. And then we also see a single motherhood by choice, which is another thing
15:31I talk about with women who reach a point where they say, I can't find
15:35a man, a suitable man whom I'd like to have children with.
15:39So they go their own way.
15:40And yeah, it's really unfortunate because I think at the core, we all want to
15:44fall in love. We all want to bond with someone and find someone for life.
15:48And we're moving in very swiftly in the opposite direction.
15:52Right. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on The Carol
15:55Markowitz Show. How did you get into being a neuroscientist who specializes in human sexuality?
16:04What was the path? FMRI research was really interesting to me.
16:08So the idea that you could look at the brain and see what parts of
16:11the brain were activated during a brain scan.
16:14I just thought that was the wildest technology.
16:16So FMRI technology has been around since about the 90s.
16:20MRI technology has been around longer than that.
16:22So MRI is looking at the structure of the body or the brain and then
16:24fMRI specifically looks at brain activation.
16:28So that's what initially piqued my interest.
16:30And then in terms of sexuality research, I did a placement in graduate school and
16:35I didn't know such a thing even existed back then.
16:37I didn't know that you could study sex, but I liked it because I found
16:40the subject so taboo. And whenever I told someone my placement is, you know, I'm
16:44looking at the brains of, I'm looking at sexual arousal in the brain, people would
16:48either say, wow, that's really interesting, or they would be really weirded out and disgusted
16:52and uncomfortable. Yeah. And I liked that because I thought there's a part of me
16:55too, that feels like it's a bit uncomfortable to talk about.
16:58And I want to push myself to do this because there's no reason why it
17:01should be that way. So that's why I ended up, you know, I finished my
17:04PhD in neuroscience and then my switch into journalism was totally unpredictable as well, just
17:10because academia had become way too woke.
17:13And I thought this is really doing a disservice to the public because biology is
17:17seen as verboten. So you can only really discuss things in the context of socially
17:21constructed ideas or say, like at the time when I was graduating, I know like
17:27everything was blamed on the part patriarchy, you know, there's no...
17:30I think that's still the case.
17:33So it was very much just feeling like, okay, I'm frustrated.
17:37I feel very limited. And I know that if I stay in academia, I have
17:40to stay quiet about certain things.
17:41And then the issue of gender transitioning in children was also like very popular at
17:46that time. I mean, it still is.
17:47Thankfully, that idea is slowly dying out.
17:49I really appreciate the coverage you've been doing on this and just the insanity in
17:53general about transgender ideology and all this nonsense.
17:56So, you know, I wrote this op -ed criticizing gender transitioning in kids.
18:00And I knew that after that point, I wouldn't be able to stay in academia,
18:02which was fine for me.
18:03So I feel very blessed to get to speak with you now and about my
18:06second book. You don't get to come back now that everybody's changing their minds?
18:10They're not like, sorry, Dr.
18:12So, come back? No, once you're a traitor, you're a traitor for life.
18:15But I honestly don't... I don't know that I would even because it just feels
18:18so much more freeing now.
18:20I don't have to worry about like saying the wrong thing and then having people,
18:24you know, want to avoid you or...
18:29It's just, yeah, I can say whatever I want, which is the best feeling.
18:32I love that. What are you most proud of in your life?
18:38Probably my resilience, I think, because, like I said, like making that switch in my
18:43career was really unpredictable. I didn't know what to expect.
18:47But I also, I think one key theme in sex tension is especially saying to
18:51young people and to young men who feel really demoralized is that you have to
18:54keep going. And I think it's very easy to look at someone like myself or
18:58any of us to look at you, Carolyn, to say, well, easy for you to
19:00say that. How would you know that we've all gone through things in life?
19:04We've all struggled, right? And I think the thing that separates people who move forward
19:10and the people who stay in one place is just that mindset of I'm going
19:13to do what I need to do to grow and to get better and to
19:17overcome these obstacles instead of being consumed by them.
19:21But I really do want to emphasize I feel a lot of compassion for these
19:25young men. I hear from very many of them on social media.
19:28They're very upset with me because they say, well, easy for you to say that
19:30you're a woman, you're a minority.
19:32But I think a big piece of it is mental health.
19:35You know, like 5 % of the globe right now is depressed.
19:38And so I think also with the sexlessness problem, but also with motivation and self
19:42-esteem more broadly and just why people are also so obsessed with screens is because
19:48it does help you avoid interacting with other people.
19:51If you're depressed and anxious, you don't really want to be in the presence of
19:55other people who could potentially judge you, who could potentially reject you or make you
19:59feel badly about yourself. Not to say that people generally do, but especially if you're
20:02struggling with your mental health, people tend to be a little bit more, I'd say,
20:06hypervigilant about that. So I would say for people who are struggling, definitely like prioritize
20:10that. You know, it's okay.
20:11There's no shame if you're struggling, but just to recognize that help is out there
20:14and you can get better and just to take tiny steps moving forward.
20:19Absolutely. Give us a five -year -out prediction.
20:22And it could be about anything, but I'd love to hear a sextinction prediction if
20:26you have one. I would say, like we were saying, I do think AI companion,
20:31within five years, I see AI companions becoming mainstream.
20:34I see people bringing them to parties, to weddings.
20:37Oh, no, really? Oh, God, really?
20:39Oh, no. No, you got to shame them back into their like hovel.
20:43Get ready, Carol. You're going to be like, you're going to be at events.
20:46I'm going to be judging, very openly judging.
20:48Do you want to meet my girlfriend or my boyfriend?
20:51No, I don't. And because they're completely customizable.
20:56So for your audience, in case they haven't tried this technology, like you can pick
20:59what they look like, you choose their names.
21:01I made a bunch of them.
21:02I made tons of them for this book to try them out.
21:04And you really can customize them to any permutation of what you're looking for in
21:08terms of physical attributes, personality, voice, pet names for you.
21:13So I'd see that becoming mainstream.
21:15I do think, say, like sex robots, once the price point goes down enough that
21:19people can, it's more affordable.
21:21Right now, the average sex bot is probably about 10K, starting at 10K.
21:25And the technology is still not the greatest.
21:27But once it starts, you know, becoming more affordable, I think that's also going to
21:32become much more mainstream. And I didn't think this would ever happen, but I do
21:35think it will become more socially acceptable because the more people consume something, and if
21:39they don't have other options, and again, I feel a lot of empathy for these
21:42men who can't get other options, then people will say, okay, well, who am I
21:46to, who am I to?
21:48look down on this, right?
21:49If it's all a guy can get.
21:51But I would argue, I think a better use of that money would be invested
21:54in, again, therapy. Anything else.
21:56And then also women, real women to date.
21:58And if you feel that there's no one out there for you or that you've
22:01had purely negative experiences with men or women to look deeper into why that is,
22:06as opposed to turning to these surrogates that aren't going to help.
22:08They're not going to help the loneliness.
22:10I think the so -called loneliness epidemic is going to get worse.
22:13And I worry about the younger generation.
22:15I worry about gen alpha who are roughly age 13 and younger because they spend
22:20a lot of time on screens too.
22:21They are being exposed to porn at increasingly younger ages too.
22:25And this technology, if once they hit, even before they hit puberty, if this technology
22:29is already normalized, it's going to be really an uphill battle to try and keep
22:32them away from it. Yeah.
22:34Look, I feel very sorry for the people who are lonely and can't find somebody
22:39or feel that they're unworthy or any of that.
22:43But I pledge to you right here, I'm never going to just be accepting somebody
22:47bringing a sex doll to a party and say like, oh, you really just couldn't
22:51meet anybody. I guess this is what we have to put up with.
22:54I don't know. It's going to have to be after I die because I don't
22:58think I'm in five years from now, I'm just going to be nodding along with
23:01the story of the sex bot.
23:03What if the sex bot is a really good conversationalist though?
23:09No, I feel like the kind of person who would have a sex bot can't
23:13be a very good conversationalist.
23:15And so therefore neither can the sex bot.
23:17And that's my take on it.
23:20Debra, I have loved this conversation.
23:22And like I said, I've been a longtime fan of yours.
23:24I just think you're a fantastic writer and just amazing at the work that you
23:28do. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can
23:32improve their lives. I would say, I mean, to go back to my point on
23:37social media, to live your life, how you want to live it, how you feels
23:41right for you. And don't worry about social comparison, because I think even though we
23:45know that people's lives are not what we see on a screen or what we
23:48see when we're scrolling is not an accurate reflection of people's lives.
23:52It's still in some ways, I think gets into like feet somehow, you know, sinks
23:56its teeth into us and, and influences us.
23:59And I see so many people who feel unsatisfied with either the way they look.
24:04I have a plastic, a chapter on plastic surgery and how cosmetic trends are very,
24:09in some cases, very invasive.
24:10Plastic surgery trends are affecting both women and men now.
24:14So how we look, how we think our partners should look, how we think we
24:18should behave in a relationship.
24:20Even something as simple as like how big our house should be or how many
24:23designer goods we should have based on what we see on social media.
24:26And I think just to recognize that people on social media obviously don't look the
24:30way they look and your, your life is, is how you want to live it.
24:34And you don't have to justify that to other people or what, you know, social
24:37norms say that you should do.
24:39Absolutely. Comparison is the thief of joy.
24:42She is Dr. Debra So.
24:44Buy her books, Extinction, anywhere you buy books out right now.
24:47Thank you so much, Debra.
24:49Thank you, Carol. Thank you.