The Manosphere Report

0:00All right, everybody, we've got an incredible guest today.

0:02Governor Josh Shapiro is here, obviously governor of Pennsylvania.

0:07He's got record -setting popularity in Pennsylvania right now, 60 % approval, at least.

0:13He's a moderate. He's focused on getting s*** done, GSD.

0:17He's tough on crime, ranked number one, according to my notes on charging Medicaid fraud.

0:22He's pro -data center. He's got a nuanced take on Israel, and he's a baller,

0:28apparently, cut to the table.

0:31Got him. Oh, my God.

0:35Here's your governor. Look at those short shorts.

0:38Holy cow. Wow. It's the late 80s?

0:43And based on the VHS tape, this looks like the 80s.

0:46Yeah, that was 1990, I think.

0:49Look at that, playing the points.

0:51There you go. Very nice.

0:53Very nice. That was back when people shot mid -range jumpers.

0:57They don't do that anymore, man.

0:59They don't do that. Yeah, they should.

1:01All threes, yeah. I mean, we have a couple of players, and we were talking

1:04before the show started. You're obviously a big Philly fan, and I'm a big Knick

1:08fan, so I will see you at the games.

1:10We're on a collision course.

1:11By the way, with all due respect, and I hope we have a good conversation

1:14here, I hope to never see you at the games.

1:17Because if you're showing up in Philly with all your Knicks crap on, I'm not

1:20going to be a happy guy.

1:22I'll look at a selfie courtside with my friend Dave, who is one of the

1:27co -owners of the team, who's our mutual friend of ours, who I think egged

1:31you on a little bit to come on the program here.

1:33He did. Which I appreciate.

1:34He said, go on all in.

1:35They have thoughtful conversations and anxious to have one with you.

1:39So thanks for having me.

1:40There's so much for us to talk about, but I thought I would start with

1:43your track record in Pennsylvania.

1:45And the reason I wanted to start there is because there's a bit of a

1:48collision course happening right now between you and Gavin.

1:51Gavin's got what I would describe as a variable tenure here in California.

1:56I left California for Texas because I just thought it was a bit of a

1:59disaster. But you're doing great in your state, and that's in the face of New

2:05York, my hometown, New Jersey, Boston, like losing a lot of business leaders.

2:10And you've been scoring some big wins.

2:13And so when you look at your track record, maybe you could just educate the

2:17audience on what you've gotten done and maybe in comparison to what's happening in those

2:24other states with other Democratic leaders.

2:27Because you seem to be maybe the exception to this rule that Democrats aren't getting

2:31it done on a business level.

2:33Look, I'm proud of what we've done.

2:35I'm not in comparison with Gavin or any other Democratic governor.

2:39I'll just talk about what we've done here in Pennsylvania.

2:41We are a pro -growth state.

2:44We want businesses to come here and grow.

2:46I'm proud of the fact that we've created more jobs in all but two states

2:50in the entire country. We've cut taxes seven different times to be more competitive.

2:55Cut taxes for small businesses.

2:57Also for families trying to afford child care, for seniors, for working Pennsylvanians.

3:02We've taken our permitting process.

3:04That's usually the ticket you need, say, to build your building, right?

3:09If you're trying to build something here in Pennsylvania.

3:11We were bottom five in the country.

3:13I think we're now a national model, easily top five in terms of speed.

3:17We've got a money -back guarantee on all of our permits.

3:20If we don't get you your permit in time, we'll give you our money back.

3:23And fun fact, we've issued 40 million permits during my time as governor.

3:28We've only had to issue five refunds, meaning only five of those permits were late.

3:33We are now the only growing economy in the northeastern part of the United States.

3:38At the same time, we're investing in workforce development, especially if you don't have a

3:43college degree, tripling funding for VOTAC and apprenticeship programs, and understanding the need to take

3:49the workforce we have today and prepare them for jobs here in the Commonwealth of

3:54Pennsylvania. I'm proud that we've got an unemployment rate below the national rate consistently over

4:00the last 32 months. I think it is really critical that every kid born in

4:05Pennsylvania gets a great quality education.

4:07That that kid has a safe street to walk down, to get to school or

4:11wherever else they're going, and that they've got a job in the community that they

4:14love. Those, to me, are the core foundational principles.

4:18It's what we focus on every single day.

4:21Our mantra, as you said at the top, is GSD, get s*** done.

4:25Those are the areas where we focus on getting s*** done, and I think we're

4:28putting a lot of points on the board every single day that's having a meaningful

4:31difference in people's lives. How are you getting that done?

4:35Just take the permitting as an example.

4:37Why is it so dysfunctional in California?

4:40Obviously, I'm an investor in technology companies, and we just saw red tape after red

4:45tape. Then on housing, it's incredibly hard to build anything.

4:49The nimbyism. If you cast a shadow, nothing can be built.

4:52And then housing prices keep going up.

4:55And if you want to hire a nanny or a teacher, or if a firefighter

5:00moves in, they can't even afford a home in the community that they're servicing.

5:04So how did you fix this, and why can't other states not fix it?

5:11I mean, look, I can't speak to how it's done in California.

5:13I'll just tell you, in Pennsylvania, the way we start the conversation is by recognizing

5:18permits are critically important to economic development and to creating jobs, right?

5:23If we, the government, can move at the speed of business, if I can give

5:28you as a CEO predictability to know your business is going to be open in

5:32six months instead of three years, right, because the permit took too long, then you're

5:37going to want to invest here.

5:38So we sort of start with the important idea that permits matter.

5:41Second, when you come into our state government to get your permit, let's just use

5:47building a building as an example, right?

5:49We want to get to yes.

5:51We still want to protect the environment and public health and public safety, and we

5:54do that, but we want to get to yes.

5:56So our attitude has shifted.

5:58Third, we've got to have that money back guarantee, because that money back guarantee holds

6:03the bureaucracy accountable. Now, I will tell you that some of this we've done administratively,

6:09meaning I've signed executive orders and we've made those changes, but on other things, we've

6:13worked with the legislature to pass new laws to speed up our permitting, and it

6:17hasn't always been easy. Understand, I'm a Democrat as governor.

6:21I've got a divided legislature.

6:22I was the only governor for a while with a divided legislature, and now there's

6:26one other. I've got a Senate led by Republicans by just two seats and a

6:31House led by Democrats by just one seat, but this is an area where I've

6:34been able to bring Democrats and Republicans together in order to make progress in terms

6:39of passing this permitting reform.

6:42And again, proof is in the pudding.

6:44What we are seeing is that businesses are coming here and the economy is growing.

6:49Let me give you one more example.

6:50This may seem really small to you, but it's a big deal, okay?

6:53When I talk about a permit, if you want to be a barber in Pennsylvania,

6:57you need a permit, or technically it's called a license, but I put it all

7:01under one. Some kind of certificate, yeah.

7:03Right. The day I took office, it took 20 days for a barber to get

7:09their permit, to be able to go out and cut hair.

7:12Today, you get it same day.

7:13You get it within that day.

7:14That may seem silly to you, but...

7:16But understand, I called my barber.

7:18I asked him, I said, how many heads do you cut a day?

7:20He said about 10 a day at 20 bucks a pop, 200 bucks a day

7:24for 20 days. That's real money.

7:28That's thousands of dollars that we're putting into that barber's pocket just because we got

7:34them their permit more quickly.

7:35So I know it may sound nerdy, it may sound wonky, but whether you're building

7:39some big building that's going to house hundreds of workers or thousands of people who

7:45are living there, or whether you're the local barber that everybody needs to go to

7:49to get their haircut, this stuff matters.

7:51And the quicker you are, the more jobs you create and the more money you

7:55put in people's pockets. It also matters, I think, on a philosophical basis of who

8:00is the government working for, themselves and their timelines, or for the people who put

8:05them in office. And I think that's the philosophy, just at least watching it happen

8:10in New York and California.

8:11It's the opposite of what you described.

8:13There's no sense of urgency.

8:15And there's almost a situation where people believe it's intractable, that they can't change it.

8:20And so that's, I think, such an important point is that you actually made it

8:24happen. I think that's a great point.

8:27I want to focus on what you just said there.

8:29First off, I start the conversation believing that government can be a force for good

8:34in people's lives. Second, that we got to figure out a way to get to

8:37yes. Whether it's building a building or whether it's getting that mom the support she

8:42needs for her kid with autism who needs support.

8:45We got to figure out a way to get to yes and get them that

8:48help. And then you mentioned in your question, the way people get, I don't recall

8:53if you used the word frustrated or they feel, you know, that government's sort of

8:58holding them back, right? It's oppressive in a way, right?

9:01If you have that experience three or four times, whether it's at the airport or

9:05getting your driver's license or getting the haircutting, you know, certificate, like it's just oppressive

9:10over time. You just feel like the government's working against you.

9:13Yeah. And what does that, what does that person feel after they try and get

9:16their permit? They can't get it.

9:17They try and open up their small business.

9:19It won't work. They get frustrated by the way.

9:21They get pissed. And then not only are they pissed at that agency or that

9:26governor, or they're pissed at, you know, that state government, they also grow.

9:32And this is an important point, a little more cynical about government and a little

9:36bit more frustrated about the process.

9:39And when that happens, I think that that creates more distrust in our system and

9:44it creates more opportunity for, I think, frankly, dark voices on extremes to come in

9:50and take advantage of people.

9:52I find that, you know, if we get it done the right way, if we

9:56process things quickly, if we get people to yes, then maybe a byproduct of that

10:01is a little bit less cynicism in our system.

10:04Yeah. And the horseshoe theory that you're kind of referencing there, these two extremes, just

10:09taking over the conversation. That's not what the majority of the country wants.

10:13They want to just live in a high functioning society.

10:16It was curious how you look at fraud, waste, fraud, and abuse.

10:22My friend Elon, to drop a name, you know, did this Doja thing.

10:25It was a little controversial, controversial.

10:27But I think what we've seen is, hey, 20, 30 % of every tax dollar

10:31collected is wasted. Some of it's fraud, some of it's just incompetence.

10:37It could be anything on that spectrum.

10:38And this seems to be the Republican Party's rallying cry to beat the Democrats going

10:43into California and prosecuting people, Michigan, et cetera.

10:47You have seemed to have gotten ahead of this.

10:50You've been doing this for years.

10:51So maybe you could explain your take on fighting frauds.

10:55specifically health care or in other areas?

10:58Look, I think we've got to focus on rooting fraud out of the system.

11:02Now, you and I may differ on, hey, should we spend a dollar on that

11:07initiative or not? And by the way, those are super healthy differences.

11:10And we should argue that out.

11:12We should debate that. But where we should have no difference is if someone's stealing

11:16that dollar, instead of going to its intended purpose, we should be against that.

11:21And I am. Prior to serving as governor and having the privilege of sitting here

11:26in this office, serving the good people of Pennsylvania, I was the state's attorney general.

11:31And you'll remember back during COVID, there were those PPP loans to help our small

11:36businesses and other businesses stay afloat.

11:38We'd probably agree, like, good idea, right?

11:40We got to keep businesses afloat.

11:42But during that time, I went out and prosecuted a whole bunch of people for

11:46stealing that PPP money, for not using it for its intended purposes.

11:51Here as governor, I've maintained a similar focus through my office of inspector general, rooting

11:56out fraud through making sure, by the way, we're not fronting you money when you're

12:01going out and providing, say, human services.

12:03You have to submit for reimbursements.

12:05And you've got to make sure you prove that you did that work.

12:08When we find that someone took advantage of the system, we're referring them to prosecutors.

12:13I'm proud of the fact that we've had more Medicaid fraud prosecutions in Pennsylvania, I

12:17think any other state. Maybe there was one other.

12:20We're certainly toward the top of that list.

12:22Proud of the fact that we've identified that, we've sent it to prosecutors, and we've

12:26addressed it. If we can address it administratively, we do.

12:29If not, we understand that those things need to be prosecuted.

12:32We should have a zero -tolerance policy for that.

12:35And we should make sure that if we're going to utilize a hard -earned dollar

12:39of a taxpayer for a purpose, like providing someone with health care that they need,

12:44we've got to make sure that that dollar makes its way to that person so

12:48they get their health care.

12:49And our folks are working really hard on that in Pennsylvania.

12:52So pro -business, less regulation, lowering taxes, eliminating fraud, and all of this is just

13:03getting done in the state.

13:05And then the next piece that in at least my community, people who are creators

13:09of businesses, venture capitalists, angel investors, founders, we pay our taxes, pay a lot of

13:16taxes, depending on which state you live in.

13:18And then there's this movement to - You should be paying more taxes in Pennsylvania,

13:22man. Stop paying them elsewhere.

13:24Yeah. And we then get struck with this California law, and a lot of my

13:30friends have moved to Austin, where I live now.

13:32They just said suddenly, hey, we want to seize 5 % of whatever you got.

13:36You already paid your taxes.

13:38You haven't paid capital gains on some of this equity you own in your company.

13:41Maybe it's paper wealth. Maybe it's your company went public now, and you could sell

13:44some of it, but you might crater the stock if you do.

13:47And Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and California, all trying to seize assets.

13:54And this has really hit the creator, the business creators, in a really offensive way,

14:01to the point at which they're moving.

14:03We lost, California lost, Sergey, Travis from Uber, just fleeing, fleeing en masse in the

14:12last 12 months. Do you believe in these wealth taxes?

14:15And do you believe in seizing people's assets on gains they've never received?

14:20It seems to be getting momentum.

14:23I mean, I'll just say, we've cut taxes seven times in Pennsylvania.

14:26We've got one of the lowest income taxes in the entire country.

14:30That's why I'm joking with you.

14:31You should come to Pennsylvania.

14:33Good deal. here. And look, I mean, that kind of tax that you're describing is

14:38not something we have here.

14:40It's certainly not something on my agenda.

14:43I do think people need to pay their fair share.

14:45I think you'd agree with that.

14:46We need to make sure that we are easing the burden on those who are

14:50working and who are at the lowest, you know, sort of economic point on the

14:54scale. And we got to make sure that folks at the top are paying their

14:57fair share in order to sustain our society.

15:01And I think we've struck a really good balance here in Pennsylvania.

15:05And I think our growth numbers bear that out.

15:08I think seeing more people coming to the state bears that out.

15:12And I think there's an important stat.

15:13One of the things you cited in those entrepreneurs as you were going through your

15:19question is, you know, these are people who kind of started with a dream, with

15:23an idea that, you know, someone might have looked at and said, geez, I don't

15:26know about that. But they stuck with it and they built up their companies.

15:30We see here in Pennsylvania, particularly when it comes to life sciences, right?

15:35We're seeing people plant a flag here in Pennsylvania, start with an idea that others

15:41might think, boy, I don't know about that.

15:43But then because of our tax environment in Pennsylvania, because of our pro -growth approach

15:48in Pennsylvania, we're seeing more of those small businesses, more of those small companies, especially

15:53in life sciences, survive that sort of valley where a lot of those companies go

15:58out of business and sustain themselves here.

16:01Because again, I think we're showing that we're pro -growth.

16:04We've got a smart tax environment for them.

16:06And by the way, after we invest in them, after we give them a shot

16:09and after they do well, we expect them to pay their fair share back to

16:13the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And I think that's the approach we've taken and it's working.

16:18Yeah. And so if you're not in favor of a wealth tax, what would you

16:22do to deal with maybe this disparity in wealth that we're seeing?

16:28There was just some statistics that came out the other day, I'm sure you saw

16:31them. The upper middle class has just been surging, middle class going down a bit,

16:36and people in the lower rungs going down as well.

16:40So people may feel like they're not making enough money.

16:43But in reality, what's happening is people feel other people have made a tremendous amount

16:48of money, which is true, because of equity holdings are growing much better than salaries

16:53ever will. And only 40%, only 50 % of the country really participates in a

16:58meaningful way in equities. The other 40, 50 % don't have any exposure to that.

17:03So how would you deal with somebody making, you know, $100 billion, $500 billion, a

17:09trillion dollars, and never selling their equity, or maybe not selling it for 20 years?

17:14How do you think about that?

17:15Let me make sure three points, a Pennsylvania point, then a couple of broader points.

17:19One, you cannot have a national economy that works if it's only working for the

17:241%. And you pointed out in your question, the wage disparity and the disparity of

17:29income, you have to make sure that there is opportunity for those at all different

17:35income levels. And look, as we sit here today, if you're making a million dollars

17:39versus $50 ,000, make a million dollars, you're going to be able to buy some

17:43stuff that someone at $50 ,000 can't buy, right?

17:46We sort of understand that, but you've got to have opportunity, and you've got to

17:50have a level playing field, and you've got to have a fair shot, and you've

17:53got to have a tax system that works in a fair way.

17:57So that's sort of point one.

17:58Point two is here in Pennsylvania, we've tried to address some of that economic disparity

18:02by passing the first ever working Pennsylvania's tax credit, sort of a state -side earned

18:09income tax credit. So what we're saying is if...

18:12you're working, if you're going out and busting your hump, we're going to put some

18:15money back in your pocket.

18:16About 940 ,000, almost a million Pennsylvanians are going to qualify for a little over

18:21800 bucks back in their pockets.

18:23So that's going to help not only today with rising costs due to a lot

18:27of these federal policies, but it's going to put money back in people's pockets, allow

18:31them to make the investments they need to make in their everyday lives.

18:35Here's the third point. What I would not do, because you asked what I would

18:39do, what I would not do, is what President Trump did at the federal level

18:43with an aid and assist from a whole bunch of sick and fancy Congress by

18:48passing that budget bill or the beautiful budget bill or whatever the hell they call

18:52it. In effect, what they did was they gave a tax cut for those who

18:56simply do not need it.

18:59Right. And by the way, you know, in the Palace of Truth and Justice, you

19:02talk to those folks. They know that they didn't need that tax cut.

19:06And what happens as a result of that is I've got 500 ,000 Pennsylvanians who

19:13are going to lose their health care.

19:16I've got 120 ,000 who've already lost their health care.

19:19About another 320 ,000 or so were likely to lose Medicaid next year.

19:24I've got 26 rural hospitals that are likely to shutter because these are rural hospitals

19:30that are working on an operating deficit.

19:33And they're relying so much on Medicaid, which has been slashed by the federal government.

19:37So the idea that Donald Trump thought it was smart economic policy to give a

19:42tax cut to those who don't need it and pay for it with those who

19:46are struggling and create even greater economic disparities, that is going to hold back our

19:51entire economy. Just take those 500 ,000 people who aren't going to have health care.

19:55You're paying for that. And I'm paying for that with our private insurance.

19:59So what Donald Trump has done is shifted that burden onto those who are struggling,

20:05making it harder for them, adding additional costs to the middle class.

20:10And I think that that is, that lacks, frankly, it's just dumb economic policy.

20:16And I think it's going to set us back.

20:18Here we are. Politics is on the table.

20:20Incredible track record you have.

20:21But let's dive into the Democratic Party.

20:23I'm an independent, but grew up Irish Catholic in Brooklyn.

20:27So grew up a Democrat, probably have voted, you know, 60 -40 Democrat to Republican,

20:33but always for a moderate, somebody who can get stuff done.

20:35That's why I find you quite appealing.

20:36But let's talk about the Democratic Party and the shellacking they got in the last

20:42election. And specifically, what really troubled me, Biden didn't look like he was all there.

20:49And I think we've all come to some consensus that he probably should have dropped

20:52out earlier. But what was really disheartening to me was that they didn't do the

20:56speedrun primary. They didn't do, you know, capsule primary over that July -August period and

21:03gave you a shot and other people a shot, Pritzker, Buttigieg, whoever, to compete for

21:09the nomination. Was that a huge mistake for the Democratic Party?

21:13And when you look back on it, do you think that might have cost you

21:17all the election? Well, look, I mean, I actually wrote about this in the book

21:20I recently published, where, you know, it became clear to me that, you know, Joe

21:26Biden seeking another term was probably not in the best interest of the party or

21:31the country. And I spoke to him directly about that and bluntly about that.

21:35Once he made the decision to drop out with 100 and whatever days to go,

21:40you know, there were not many opportunities, I think, to have the kind of primary

21:44process that you're talking about.

21:46I think it is important to look forward, right, and not look back.

21:50And you said in the last election, Democrats took a shellacking.

21:53Actually, you look at 2025, it was the opposite.

21:56I mean, the president's party, the Republican Party got beat in New Jersey, got beat

22:00in Virginia, got beat here in Pennsylvania, where we won three state Supreme Court seats.

22:04So obviously there is a pendulum in American politics and it's clearly swinging back.

22:11I think what's important is that we look forward.

22:14And I think it's also really important for our party to have for my party

22:18to have a real debate and to have a real discussion about ideas.

22:22What are we for and what are we willing to fight for?

22:25And I realize that process may at times look a little messy.

22:28I realize, and I mean this with the utmost respect, it gives folks like you

22:32on a podcast or on a show the ability to sort of pick apart, maybe

22:35try and, you know, sort of parse words or point one Democrat at another and

22:40try and create conflict. But I would just say that overall, having this debate and

22:45having these issues be raised and having disagreements, that's healthy for our party.

22:50And ultimately, I think our party's poised to take back power and that will make

22:54us better at governing. To me, the whole purpose of running in an election is

22:58getting a chance to govern, not just winning the election.

23:01And so having these debates right now puts us in a better position when we

23:05win those elections. And I'm running for re -election right now in Pennsylvania, going to

23:09work my ass off to win another term and earn the support of the people

23:13of Pennsylvania again. And I want to continue to deliver, continue to, you know, focus

23:17on these issues that matter most.

23:19And having that debate, I think, is really healthy.

23:21I understand looking forward is most important, but I got to go one more time

23:25in the review mirror here, which is Kamala Harris was picked because Biden had put

23:31out a criteria. Hey, I want to have a woman of color as my vice

23:33president. He was qualified, unqualified, you know, moderately qualified.

23:40But then when she went out to pick her VP, everybody was saying, hey, Josh

23:44Shapiro should be really in that running.

23:46And she didn't pick you specifically because she didn't think she could win with the

23:49Jewish vice president. Yeah. I don't respectfully, I got to push back on that.

23:54And again, I've been very, very open about this.

23:57Yeah. And respectfully, I'm not looking to, you know, be argumentative with you, but I,

24:01I was very, very detailed and, and, and very specific in my book about this

24:08process. And I was very grateful to the vice president for being considered and grateful

24:13to her for the candid dialogue we had.

24:16And about 48 hours before she picked Tim Walz, I pulled out and made clear

24:20that that was not something I was interested in doing.

24:23I thought I could serve the good people of Pennsylvania and, and do my best

24:27serving here as governor in a job that I absolutely love.

24:31So this wasn't about her not picking me because of my faith.

24:34This was about me in the end, not being interested in, in that job.

24:38Really? Sincerely? Yes. Because it did seem like you wanted to, to be considered for

24:44that VP position. I called Sunday evening after she and I met and had a

24:49really candid conversation to inform her that I did not want to be considered.

24:53I thought she had some really good people to choose from.

24:56All right. So let's move forward.

24:57Then looking at winning, you're going to run for governor again.

25:00Assume that's going to be a shoe in, you know, you got to do the

25:03work, but it's pretty clear.

25:05I appreciate your confidence there, my man.

25:08Yeah, no, it's, it's clear, but let's talk a little bit about if you were

25:11to run for president, which people seem to think you've got a really good shot,

25:16but you're below maybe national recognition right now.

25:21We're a little bit far behind.

25:23Gavin has come out. Hey, I'm running.

25:24I'm running. Here I am.

25:26He's obviously in the pole position for now.

25:29I want to understand the Democratic Party and how they should proceed, because just like

25:34the right seemed to separate and you had this MAGA coalition and you had, you

25:40know, the traditional Republicans who were just aghast at Trump and his style and his

25:44behavior, et cetera. Now that seems to have fractured again.

25:48You have America first, America only.

25:50All the supporters who were supporting Trump now have come out vocally against him because

25:57of the war in Iran.

25:59And then you have on your side, the socialist Democrat movement, which I think a

26:03lot of moderates are like, well, that's confusing.

26:05We don't want to have more Mondamis.

26:08And that doesn't seem super appealing to a lot of moderates.

26:11And the moderates are the ones who flipped this election and they went, the last

26:14election, they went with Trump largely, as opposed to going with Kamala.

26:18So handicap for me, what has to happen in the Democratic Party to win in

26:232020? I understand why you're asking that.

26:25I will answer your question.

26:27I don't think anyone should be looking past these midterms.

26:31And while I appreciate the confidence you have in me and maybe in the broader

26:36dynamics here, I think we need to have a national referendum in these midterms on

26:41what people see happening in Washington, D .C., the chaos and the corruption that exists

26:47there. I think people need to show up in record numbers and vote their concerns.

26:52And so I'm not looking past the midterms.

26:54I do think it is important that we acknowledge Donald Trump has injected chaos and

27:01corruption into everything he touched.

27:04And I think it's important for me, for other Democratic leaders in this country to

27:10be able to show what calm, competent governance can actually deliver for people.

27:16That's what I'm going to be talking about in these midterms as I seek re

27:20-election. I think it is important to paint an alternative picture to the chaos Donald

27:25Trump has created, one where you can actually grow the economy.

27:28You can make our communities safer.

27:30We didn't talk about this yet, but we've hired 2 ,000 more police officers invested

27:34in community violence prevention. And violent crime is down 12 percent.

27:39Fatal gun violence is down 42 percent in our commonwealth.

27:42We've invested in public education.

27:45And by the way, scores are up.

27:47Truancy is down. We're moving up on the list.

27:50We're about 10th, according to Consumer Affairs, in the quality of public education.

27:54I think we've got to show that there is an alternative to Donald Trump's chaos,

28:00to his cruelty, to his corruption.

28:02And you're seeing that, I think, certainly in my state.

28:05I think you're seeing it in other states as well.

28:07And we need to paint that alternative picture.

28:10So 26 is certainly going to be a referendum on the first two years of

28:14this presidency, which was extremely popular for the first nine months or so.

28:19People felt really good about the economy.

28:21Some people. And that, well, I think his polling was great.

28:26But there was this tinge, I think it's pretty accurate to say the tariffs felt

28:31like those were chaotic. Then you get the ICE situation.

28:34That feels very chaotic. Then you go to this war with Iran.

28:39And that feels like a peak chaotic moment that we're in here in week six

28:42of this. So it's certainly going to be a referendum on Trump.

28:45And it feels like all the Democrats have to do is sit back and say,

28:49like, look, is this what you want?

28:52Gas prices up, inflation. But you're saying they have to paint another picture.

28:56Paint that picture for me.

28:57What is that picture? I think on both sides of what you said, Donald Trump

29:02chose to push the tariff button.

29:04Right. Yeah. And as a result, here in Pennsylvania.

29:07what we're seeing is coffee prices are up 30 percent.

29:11Beef is up 19 percent.

29:13O .J. orange juice is up 9 percent.

29:15The fertilizers my farmers rely on here in Pennsylvania up 36 percent.

29:20So we're seeing whether you're a farmer, whether you're, you know, a dad's just trying

29:24to cook dinner for his kids, whatever the case may be, everything costs more because

29:29of the recklessness and the chaotic approach Donald Trump's taking in our economy with these

29:34tariffs. Obviously, this war has spiked gas prices up today, about four 15, four 16

29:41here in Pennsylvania, similar across the country, probably years before those gas prices come down,

29:47even if the war, you know, hopefully ends, you know, very, very soon.

29:52And so I think it is important, yes, to point that out the way Donald

29:56Trump's policies have hurt the American people, have hurt our farmers, have hurt our small

30:02businesses. The point I was making a moment ago is I think that's part of

30:06the conversation. The other part of the conversation is, OK, well, what are you doing

30:09to make people's lives? Yeah.

30:11So what should the top three things be?

30:13Like if you were running the Democratic Party and everybody got in a room and

30:16said, you know what, we really are going to take winning seriously, not get into

30:20this like purity test for everybody in the party.

30:23And, you know, everybody's got to be perfect.

30:27And Joe Rogan's not good enough to go on air with because he's a lifelong

30:31Democrat. But he said something about COVID we don't agree with.

30:34Therefore, he's out of the party.

30:35Elon Musk is a little bit weird on the well, but but the Democrats did.

30:39And then, oh, Elon Musk waited hours to and had Obama at SpaceX.

30:44And then all of a sudden, he can't come to the White House for the

30:46EV summit, the category he created.

30:48Like, it's pretty obvious the Democratic Party had some real dysfunction in there in terms

30:53of building a bigger tent.

30:55And I can tell you, I have never felt more courted in my life than

31:00the Republican Party trying to get me to be part of the Trump movement, which

31:05I demurred and declined. It wasn't my style.

31:08Right. But they are trying to build the biggest tent possible.

31:12They're like, oh, you agree with 14 percent of what we do?

31:15You're in. OK. Yeah. So walk me through.

31:18So let's dissect that a little bit.

31:20Yeah. Let's dissect. First off, you attribute a number of things to Democrats that I

31:24didn't say. So we're you're here interviewing me.

31:27So let's focus on the things I say.

31:29Number two, they went and they courted you and you demurred.

31:33But by the way, even had you not demurred, had you signed up?

31:37I don't know that your life would be better off after a year and a

31:40half of Trump's policies. What I am for here in Pennsylvania, the ultimate swing state,

31:46the toughest state to win in, an incredibly tough state to govern in, particularly with

31:51a divided legislature. I'm for investing in public education, giving every child of God an

31:56opportunity. I'm for safe communities.

31:58And we're building that here and we're reducing crime in all of our communities.

32:03I'm for a pro -growth economy where we generate more energy, we generate more jobs,

32:09where we create more opportunities, particularly in our rural communities and forgotten communities that have

32:14been too often left behind.

32:15And here's the fourth thing I'm for.

32:16I am for freedom. And I'll tell you what, this president represents a party that

32:22used to be known as the party of freedom.

32:24And now they have turned their backs on that.

32:27They want to tell my kids what books they're allowed to read.

32:30They want to tell women what medicines they can take and what they can do

32:33with their bodies. They want to control the way I raise my child.

32:38They want to say, you know, every day that, yeah, you can vote, but we're

32:43going to set up the rules and try and rig them in a way.

32:45where you're not going to be successful, they are not the party of freedom.

32:49And I think the Democratic Party has an opportunity to be the party of education,

32:54safety, economic opportunity, and freedom.

32:56That's what we're doing here in Pennsylvania.

32:58And that's what I'm going to continue to put forth.

33:01I think it's a great platform.

33:02I would add to it housing.

33:04The thing I hear about from young people all the time is, you know, just

33:07I'll never be able to afford a house.

33:09The American dream is a bit of a scam and college is overpriced.

33:13So how do you think about housing?

33:15And is that an issue in your state?

33:18Let's talk about housing. Let's also talk about college because you rate both of them

33:22in your question. I mean, that has disinfected, by the way, just like two generations

33:27who are like, you guys tricked us on housing.

33:29You told us to be able to get home and you won't sell your home.

33:33And you told us we could always make more than our college education costs.

33:37And that was a lie too.

33:38Yeah. When I was talking about economic opportunity, it's somewhat shorthand, if you will, for

33:43also being able to afford that community.

33:46Affording that community can be healthcare.

33:48It can be housing, right?

33:49But let's talk about housing here in Pennsylvania.

33:51I've asked the legislature for a $1 billion fund to be able to build more

33:56housing in Pennsylvania and repair existing housing.

34:0050 % of my housing was built prior to 1950.

34:03You can invest a few thousand bucks in a new boiler, a new roof, some

34:07new windows, actually keep people in their homes and not have to build new homes.

34:11We also have to eliminate or damn near eliminate the red tape that exists when

34:17it comes to building housing.

34:19We got to be able to build this faster.

34:21And so I put forth a regulatory reform plan to be able to build more

34:25housing. I think that is really, really crucial.

34:28Let's talk about college for a minute.

34:30The first day I was governor, the first executive order I signed was to do

34:36away with the college degree requirement to work for state government.

34:40We have 80 ,000 employees, damn near all.

34:43Now you do not have to have a college degree other than say the doctors

34:46and lawyers and people like that who require advanced degrees.

34:49So now 60%, six zero, 60 % of all of our hires in state government

34:55don't have a college degree.

34:56We followed up on that by tripling our funding for VOTEC and CTE in our

35:01high schools, dramatically increasing our funding for apprenticeship programs.

35:0762 % of my adult population here in Pennsylvania do not have a college degree.

35:13So we need to make sure we're investing in them so that they have opportunities.

35:17You want to go learn to be a welder?

35:18You're going to make six figures working in a shipyard in South Philadelphia.

35:23You want to go and you want to work on an HVAC system?

35:26You're going to work in some of our most complex life sciences construction jobs, and

35:32you're going to make six figures doing that.

35:34So for us, we fundamentally believe that you've got many pathways to opportunity here in

35:40Pennsylvania. For some, it's going to college.

35:43Great. And for others, if you choose not to go to college, that's also great.

35:47We're going to make sure that we pave the way for you and give you

35:49that opportunity. Yeah, the Generation Two Belt movement is well upon us.

35:54People are starting to figure out going in debt, 100, 200K versus getting a plumber

35:59job, carpenter job, HVAC, whatever, for six figures out of the gate is a much

36:04better opportunity. Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not shitting on people that go to

36:08college. I went to college.

36:09I presume you went to go to college.

36:11But for too long, by the way, politicians in both parties define success exclusively around

36:19the idea of you having to have a college degree and then set up arbitrary

36:23barriers to entry. hey, if you don't have a college degree, you can't apply here.

36:26Well, what about the skills that you developed in the military?

36:29What about the skills you developed at a trade school or the skills that you

36:32developed working in the private sector?

36:34Those skills should matter. And now they do in Pennsylvania.

36:38And we're no longer taking an elitist approach that shuts people out just because they

36:43don't have a college degree.

36:45We're giving them the keys to opportunity and we're giving them opportunities to pursue more

36:50success here in Pennsylvania. Does the socialist democratic movement worry you, Mondami and the crew?

36:58And how do you think about that in terms of the party dynamics?

37:02I mean, remember the question you asked me, I don't know, three or four questions

37:05ago about you said, well, yeah, I only agree with 14 % of what you

37:09agree with, you know, come join the party.

37:11Look, my view is that we got to have a big tent.

37:14And my view is that we've got to have a real debate around different ideas.

37:18And just because I might not agree with you on these three things, I might

37:22agree with you on something else.

37:23Listen, I'm sitting behind my desk here in the governor's office.

37:26This is where I negotiate bills and budgets and other things.

37:30If I threw everybody out of my office that I didn't agree with 100 %

37:34of the time, we'd never get anything done.

37:35When I sit down across the table from a Republican lawmaker, say, what are the

37:4010 things you want to accomplish?

37:41I tell him the 10 things I want to accomplish.

37:43And you know what, we're not going to agree on all 10.

37:45But if we agree on three or four, I'd rather focus on those three or

37:48four things where we can find common ground than the five, six, seven things where

37:52we're just going to disagree.

37:54And so I think if you want to make progress, you got to figure out

37:57how to create, you know, majorities, whether it's a majority in the legislature to get

38:01a bill to my desk, a majority come election time to win an election.

38:05You got to find ways to bring people together and find common ground and not

38:09just focus exclusively on our differences.

38:12What's your take on what's going on in Congress, Senate, in terms of Trump and

38:17getting alignment there? Because, hey, when you go to war, or you do tariffs, this

38:22was something we had a consultation between these different branches of our government.

38:27And we had other presidents on the Democrat side, etc.

38:30You know, say, hey, we're going to just get rid of student loan, I'm doing

38:33an executive order. I'm curious your take on the balance of our different branches of

38:38government. And the lack of collaboration, because this is particularly disturbing.

38:43We're both Gen Xers. We grew up watching the Democrats and the Republicans argue, but

38:48then they all got together, had lunch, and they negotiated.

38:51Where is that esprit de corps of everybody rowing in the same direction for all

38:57Americans versus this toxic, you know, we're just going to block each other and do

39:03character assassination at every single turn?

39:06It's the most polarized of our lifetimes, for sure.

39:09I actually think the Congress of the United States, the leadership there, I mean, they're

39:14frankly kind of sad, pathetic people.

39:17And let me explain why, right?

39:20You put, what's his name, Johnson in as a speaker, and he's effectively a rubber

39:26stamp for anything Donald Trump wants.

39:29By the way, whether you agree with Trump or not, I think you can agree

39:32that you'd like your member of Congress to at least meet the burdens that they

39:38have on them in the Constitution of the United States, which is to be a

39:42check, which is to be a separate branch of government and a branch of government

39:47that has meaningful responsibilities here.

39:50When the Congress of the United States walks away from their responsibilities, whether on tariffs

39:55or whether on declaring war, and ultimately just kind of empower the president, again, agree

40:01or disagree, obviously. profound disagreements from the president on those things, then what you've really

40:08done is you've limited the power of the Congress.

40:12And what you've really done is you've seen a whole bunch of people that put

40:15Donald Trump before the oath of office they take to the Constitution.

40:19And I think that's just pathetic.

40:21By the way, why these people work so hard to get to Congress, to move

40:27up in leadership, to do all the things they got to do, and then give

40:30away their power to Donald Trump?

40:32That's pathetic. And it's weak.

40:34And I think our country is suffering as a result of it.

40:37Look, I'm here in Pennsylvania, where it all began 250 years ago.

40:42And the brilliance of our founders was that they left so much of the work

40:49to the next generation and the generation after that to pick up the baton and

40:55continue to perfect our union.

40:58Our founders, though, always contemplated two things.

41:03One, that there would be honorable people in office.

41:07And two, that the people in office would exercise their power and be a check

41:13on one another. And in some cases, slow things down to make sure that bad

41:19things didn't occur, bad things couldn't get through the process.

41:22I think what Americans are confronting now is a realization that we don't really have

41:28all honorable people in positions of authority in the federal government.

41:32And that that checks and balance system that was constructed here in Pennsylvania is not

41:39standing the test of time because you've got these profoundly and pathetically weak people like

41:44Johnson and others who just simply give away their power to folks who are corrupt

41:51and to folks who are not acting in an honorable way.

41:54You keep bringing up that corruption.

41:56Explain to me what corrupt things you know that the Trump administration has done.

42:01I think to me, there has been an extraordinary amount of self -dealing there.

42:05There has been a good bit of family members doing quite well in this in

42:13this environment. I think you're seeing more and more people who have the president's ear,

42:18being able to lobby him at his swim club to get a pardon for someone

42:22that frankly doesn't deserve a pardon.

42:24I mean, I think the list goes on and on and on.

42:26But those are some examples that I think the American people see with their own

42:31eyes, taking a, you know, a billion dollar jet from the Qataris and thinking there's

42:36nothing attached to that. Right.

42:38I mean, I think that there's just a lot of that that moves so fast

42:42that the American people are having a hard time keeping up with it.

42:45But there will be a reckoning on this one day.

42:48Is it illegal? Yeah. So on the pardons, I'm strongly agreeing.

42:52Feels like the pardon power is super abused.

42:54Is there a path to refine that tool?

42:58Because it relies on norms, right?

43:00And ever since Bill Clinton, you know, did some, you know, friends and then obviously

43:06Biden did his son and then Trump's doing his, you know, folks, it feels like

43:11now this is just a get out of jail card.

43:14You come into an administration and then everybody from Fauci to, you know, Hunter Biden

43:20and everybody else is just going to get a pardon on the way out.

43:23How would you reshape that tool?

43:25Well, let's be clear. And I don't think you're suggesting this, but I mean, I

43:29was critical of Joe Biden when he pardoned his son.

43:31Right. I was critical of him publicly.

43:34What we are seeing under Donald Trump, you have to admit, is next level when

43:38it comes to the abuse.

43:39I mean, it's on the way.

43:40It's yes, it's in the.

43:41first year. It's not on the last day, even.

43:43It's like an ongoing tool here.

43:45We had CZ, who was a crypto person who got pardoned, and Trump didn't even

43:50know who he was. He was just like, I heard he's a good guy.

43:53I mean, I will tell you, I sit at this desk here, and I sign

43:58pardons and clemencies. And I take that responsibility so seriously.

44:03And I agonize over these decisions.

44:07And I pray that I get these decisions right.

44:10And I believe I have.

44:12And I'm transparent about why I viewed someone as worthy to get a clemency and

44:17also worthy of not getting one, or not worthy, I should say, but also not

44:22earning one. And these are tough, tough decisions.

44:27It goes back to what I said a moment ago.

44:29Our founders, when they vested that kind of authority in an executive, didn't necessarily do

44:34something wrong by giving the executive that power.

44:37But they were leaning on the assumption that the executive would be honorable, that the

44:42executive would do this with morality and real scruples in mind.

44:48And I think what we're seeing with the president is, if you sidle up to

44:51him at his swim club, you donate a certain amount of money, maybe, or you

44:56have his ear for some other social reason, you can usually get him to give

45:00a pardon to someone who's important to you.

45:02Yeah, the pardons definitely are super troubling.

45:04How do you deal with the family members and the kids enriching themselves?

45:10Obviously, nothing has been done by a court or an investigation into Trump's kids at

45:17this point. So we just want to be clear about that.

45:20You know, we had Hunter Biden getting a ridiculous million dollar board seat.

45:25I've never seen anybody get paid a million dollars to be on a board.

45:28That was obviously corrupt in some way.

45:30Or somebody trying to curry favor doesn't mean the president Biden was, but it definitely

45:34was corruption there. How do you deal with kids of, and this has been going

45:39on for a while, these kind of allegations.

45:43If we can't rely on honor and norms, is there another proposal here that the

45:49kids of, you know, people in office can't make money, your kids can't make money.

45:53If I was running for office, my kids couldn't make money in the free market.

45:56How do you, is there any kind of solution you can think of?

45:59I think it is important.

46:00You cited Hunter Biden. They went through a legal process.

46:03There was an investigation by the Department of Justice.

46:06I think there has to be a real look.

46:08I say this as a former prosecutor, a real look at some of this stuff

46:12and follow the evidence, follow the law.

46:14And if charges are warranted, bring them in.

46:15By the way, if charges are not warranted, don't bring them.

46:18Do not use the rule of law as a tool to go against, you know,

46:28are people who are operating with real morality.

46:31And you do have to figure out a way to operate within the norms again.

46:35I'm unwilling to accept that that is gone.

46:38It may be temporarily suspended under Donald Trump, but I'm hopeful that we can find

46:42our way back to that.

46:43Let me be clear about something else here, that finding our way back to that

46:46is a bipartisan exercise. It's going to require Republicans and Democrats and independents, all demanding

46:55when they go to the ballot box that we want to elevate people who are

46:58ethical, people who are honest, people who are focused on doing their jobs with integrity.

47:04And then when those people are in office, rewarded with the votes of the public

47:09and in these positions of public trust to hold them accountable as well.

47:13And you believe that can happen in a post -Trump world?

47:15I do. I strongly agree.

47:18Hey, it's a year. since your home was firebombed by an insane person who was

47:26anti -Semitic, your faith comes up over and over again.

47:29I personally think people are a little obsessed with it, but here we are, and

47:34the Democratic Party's been split apart as well over this support of Israel issue.

47:39You have a very nuanced position.

47:41Number one, how are you dealing with that personally, the anti -Semitism, which to me,

47:45as somebody who grew up in Brooklyn with lots of Jewish friends and all kinds

47:49of different people, just insane to think that Jewish students are being, or any particular

47:54group of students being chased by the other students at Columbia University because they're Jewish,

47:58and this chaoticness is just heartbreaking, but as a Jewish person and literally experiencing it

48:04firsthand, I mean, how are you doing with that?

48:08Yeah, I appreciate it. Look, we should separate this and have two conversations, one about

48:13Israel and one about anti -Semitism, because you kind of blurred both in that question.

48:17Let's focus first on anti -Semitism.

48:19I have been very outspoken about those who are engaging in anti -Semitism, peddling words

48:25that are anti -Semitic, and importantly, I've been critical of people on the political left

48:30and on the political right, and I think anti -Semitism is a problem in our

48:34society and is a problem on the left and it is a problem on the

48:38right, and I think it is important that we call it out.

48:41We call it out whether we're in an interview, not accusing you by any sort

48:45of that, call it out when, you know, on social media, and then we just

48:50call it out in our communities, in our daily lives where we see it.

48:54On that, there should be no nuance.

48:57We should be able to come together, people who are Jewish, people who are Christian,

49:00Muslim, and all agree that hatred, bigotry in any form, directed at a Jew, a

49:06Muslim, Christian, anyone, it has no place.

49:08And by the way, it makes us all less safe.

49:12And so we have to focus on speaking out against that.

49:15No nuance on that. Yeah.

49:17On the issue of Israel and the Middle East and the war in Iran and

49:20Gaza, there's a lot of nuance there.

49:22I'm happy to answer your questions on that.

49:23But I think on the issue of anti -Semitism, we have got to be in

49:27a place where we universally condemn it.

49:30And I think what you're seeing from some folks on the right and some folks

49:34on the left is they'll only call it out if it's said by a political

49:38opponent or someone they disagree with.

49:40And I frankly respect people on the right, like Ted Cruz, who have hauled it

49:46out within the Republican Party.

49:48I've tried to call it out when it rears its ugly head in my party.

49:52It is important that it be universally condemned.

49:56So easy to do. Let's tackle the issue of Israel.

50:01And I would say, yeah, every Jewish person, Jewish American person who I know, when

50:06I asked them about this issue, obviously, incredible tragedy, October 7th, going and collecting the

50:12hostages seems like a reasonable thing to do.

50:14I was there for 9 -11, you know, seems like a pretty analogous situation.

50:19This has to be settled.

50:21And the United States went and did what it had to do in Afghanistan and

50:24took out Iraq for extra measure.

50:26It's a whole other diversion.

50:28But 100 % of folks say they don't agree with Netanyahu's approach to what happened

50:33in Gaza. And then folks feel a decent number of people, whether it's reality or

50:38not, that America is getting dragged into this war with Iran, not under false pretenses,

50:44and because Israel is pushing us to do it.

50:48So let's take these two issues separately.

50:50And I'm just curious in understanding your position on this.

50:54Are you part of the Jewish American diaspora?

50:58That's believes hey israel's right to defend itself but maybe gaza went too far okay

51:03well first off um let me say this i don't view this issue as a

51:08jewish american as you said i view this issue as an american and i view

51:13this issue in a way of trying to understand what is the best thing for

51:17america which to me is having peace and stability in the middle east okay that's

51:24how i approach these issues it is um and i've been clear and consistent about

51:29this long before october 7th that i think netanyahu the leader of israel is someone

51:36who's been leading israel down a dangerous and isolated path i think he has made

51:43israel more isolated in the world community he has fractured really what used to be

51:50a non -partisan or bipartisan american support for israel and i think he has put

51:57israel in a very dangerous place and of course he was the leader of israel

52:01who wasn't minding the shop when october 7th happened so i've been very critical of

52:07netanyahu for years and years and years i've also for years made very clear that

52:12i think the america's interest in the region should be for stability and peace and

52:19that it would be my hope that you would have two states living peacefully side

52:24by side israel and a palestinian state now i realize that is a long way

52:30off given where we are right now but it is clear that we need to

52:34work toward that and obviously that palestinian state cannot be led by hamas which is

52:40a terrorist organization and there has to be some structure that is put in place

52:45in order in order to create that as it relates to the war which you

52:50also asked about in in your question i mean this was a war of choice

52:54the president never defined the objectives it is clear it doesn't know how the hell

52:59to get out of this um we'll see what he ultimately does with his big

53:03threats you know we're we're recording this on the eve of his you know of

53:07his big uh threat um ultimate language using language that was so offensive you'll excuse

53:15my language that diminished the value of human life um we'll see what he ultimately

53:21does does he chicken out as he usually does or does god forbid he he

53:25go through with that but this was a war of choice he didn't know why

53:28he got into it he doesn't know how the hell to get out of it

53:31america why did he get into it handicapped america pardon me america's national security interests

53:36have not been well served by this and economically you've talked about this because economically

53:41we are worse off uh because of this war i'm sorry i didn't mean to

53:45speak over you no no no well i mean listen i i appreciate your candidness

53:49governor why did he do it if you had to handicap it or what are

53:52you hearing when you talk because you have obviously a lot more information than the

53:55average yeah uh american why now why did we do this now we had done

54:00you know the strategic uh trimming of the hedges mowing of the lawn whatever the

54:05term is to get rid of the nuclear progress that's containment seemed like a perfect

54:11strategy and then all of a sudden we decide we're going to do regime change

54:14this is after trump promised that he would never get in uh do an intervention

54:19like this in the middle east this is after we were told by the republicans

54:23do not vote for a crazy democrat who will take us to war with iran

54:27and here we are in month 14 or 13 of the trump presidency and he

54:32started a war his own biggest advocates for me Megan Kelly, to Tucker Carlson, and

54:38people on the fringe, Alex Jones, and everybody in the middle, the comedians who supported

54:42him, the podcast diaspora, or the podcast bros, they're all fleeing the ship.

54:48They did not want this.

54:49So here we are. Why did he do this?

54:52Why now? What is your handicapping?

54:54Well, I'll answer that. I will just say it's yet another broken promise to the

54:58people who put him in power.

55:00He screwed over the farmers who put him in power.

55:02He told people he wouldn't slash Medicaid.

55:04He cut Medicaid. He told people he'd bring down prices.

55:07Prices have skyrocketed because of his tariffs.

55:11He's got this long string of broken promises.

55:14Now, why did he break this particular promise?

55:18Let's examine the record. First, Rubio went out and said he did it because if

55:24we didn't move then, Netanyahu was going to move and was going to force our

55:27hand. Then they walked it back.

55:29He said seven or eight months ago that they destroyed their nuclear capabilities and then

55:36came back seven or eight months later and said, we had to go in because

55:40we had to destroy their nuclear capabilities.

55:43I don't know. Then they said it was about regime change.

55:45Well, great. I mean, we went from like an 80 -something -year -old Ayatollah to

55:49a 60 -something -year -old Ayatollah, who by all accounts seems to be far more

55:54hard line. I'd hardly call that successful regime change.

55:58So to me, it is hard to, I think you've seen, I've been trying to

56:03be very forthright answering your questions.

56:05I don't know how you answer that question because the president never answered that question.

56:11He never sat in the Oval Office and looked the American people in the eye

56:16and said, this is why we're going in.

56:18And you know what? This isn't semantics.

56:21This isn't politics. If you don't know why you're going in, you don't know how

56:25the hell to get out.

56:26You don't know how to instruct the military, our brave military, including those 13 souls

56:32who did not make it home to their families because they went on a mission

56:36that the president never defined.

56:38And we mourn their loss.

56:40We thank our military heroes for what they did.

56:43And we thank our military who are out working every day on behalf of our

56:47freedom and our safety and our security.

56:49But they deserve a commander in chief who would have defined the mission.

56:54And if you define the mission, you know how to get out.

56:56And he never defined the mission.

56:58I don't know ultimately if he will follow through on his thread again.

57:01It's, you know, it's Tuesday afternoon.

57:03You and I are talking.

57:04We'll see ultimately what he does here.

57:06But to me, this has been a failed and compromised mission from the beginning because

57:11he never made clear why he was going in.

57:14Yeah. And I know you got to go in a moment.

57:16It does seem to me that first explanation, sometimes people, you know, their first reaction

57:21and their first statement is the true statement, uh, just in general.

57:24And it does seem like Israel was going to do this and we joined them

57:27and we didn't need to.

57:30And to your point about anti -Semitism.

57:32No, and America should never, pardon me, America should never be led around by any

57:35other nation. It should always be about America's interests, our national security interests, the interests

57:41of expanding freedom and opportunity for the American people.

57:44We should never, ever be bullied as maybe President Trump was by any other world

57:50leader. Back to the anti -Semitism we're experiencing now.

57:53You said, hey, let's address them separately, but I don't think you can separate them

57:57if we're getting pulled into this war by another nation and people believe like you

58:03and I do. Hey, Netanyahu, maybe went a little too far here.

58:07That is what's causing the anti -Semitism in this country.

58:10Don't you think this relationship with Israel, the state of Israel and Netanyahu?

58:14I think I think Our undying support for Netanyahu, that's not causing the anti -Semitism

58:18here. That's what these young people seem to be saying is we don't want to

58:23vote for somebody who supports Netanyahu.

58:25Well, I think you got to be real careful on that.

58:27You, the collective, not you individually.

58:30I mean, if you're suggesting, say, that Jews are Israel and reflect Israeli policies and

58:38support everything Israel does, I mean, that's one of the oldest anti -Semitic tropes out

58:42there, this sort of notion of dual loyalty.

58:45I think it is fair to vote on the issue of do we support what

58:51Donald Trump is doing relative to Netanyahu?

58:54That's fair. But to suggest that somehow it's, you know, because Jews are tied to

59:01Israel and that's why we're doing what we're doing here.

59:03Well, you and I can parse this issue, I think, very easily.

59:06But young people at Columbia or Harvard, where all this is going on and these,

59:11you know, pro -Palestinian protests are going on, they don't seem to be able to

59:15make that parse. That seems to be one of the roots of the problem is

59:18here that people do put together these young people.

59:22They could be stupid. They could be misinformed.

59:23But they do put together what the state of Israel is doing and they equate

59:28it with Judaism. And that's why I've tried to be so outspoken on this and

59:33making clear that on anti -Semitism, there should be no nuance.

59:37And that's a conversation where we should all be able to unite and that we

59:40have to protect a place for nuance when it comes to Mideast policy, when it

59:45comes to Israel, when it comes to Iran and anything happening in the Middle East.

59:51And we need to give space for those who want to peacefully, and I want

59:55to stress peacefully, protest. We want to give space to those who differ from the

1:00:00administration and, frankly, those who support the administration to be able to go out and

1:00:04to protest peacefully. And that is, I think, an important part of the fabric of

1:00:10our American society. I just think it's important.

1:00:13And I try and do this work every day as governors to keep those conversations

1:00:16separate, because when they get blended, that's where I think it gets dangerous.

1:00:20And that's where I think it really crosses a line into something we don't want

1:00:25to see in our society.

1:00:26And you could be super critical of Israel and you could love your Jewish neighbors

1:00:33and friends. These are these.

1:00:34This is a very simple concept here.

1:00:36And I think that reflects where I am on many things.

1:00:39I've been super critical of the Israeli government, the Netanyahu government.

1:00:43And I'm someone who loves Israel, someone who has spent time in Israel.

1:00:50I wrote a whole book about, proposed to my wife there, and how I think

1:00:54the idea of it is important.

1:00:57We've got to figure out ways to keep those two conversations not separate, but blurring

1:01:04the lines in a way that creates some dangers, I think, is something we have

1:01:08to guard against. Yeah. Lots of education.

1:01:10Lots of opportunities. Josh Shapiro, thank you so much for coming on All In.

1:01:13And we look forward to having you on again.

1:01:15And good luck with your race.

1:01:18Good luck with your 76ers.

1:01:19I will see you in the second round, it looks like.

1:01:22Next year, or next time I'm on, I'll be wearing a Sixers hoodie.

1:01:25Okay. Go Knicks. I'll see you courtside, my friend.

1:01:29You go to the games.

1:01:30I'm going all in. I'm going all in.

1:01:48I'm going all in. I'll see you in the next round.

1:01:51I'll see you in the next round.

1:01:51Thank you.

Josh Shapiro on Trump, Iran War Chaos, Israel's Failure, the Economy, and 2028 Race