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3:40Download today. Welcome to the Tudor Dixon podcast.

3:44We have a treat for you today.

3:46I feel like we are getting towards spring.

3:49And in Michigan, when we get towards spring, we have like three or four or

3:52five springs before spring actually comes.

3:55But there is also the hope that Jesus is coming and that we will see

3:59Him again and that hope of Easter and that feeling of just life coming back.

4:07And that is something that I get to share with you today through the eyes

4:11of two beautiful authors, someone that you probably know from TV, but also a beautiful

4:16author, Kathy Lee Gifford and Dr.

4:19Brian Litvin. They're joining me today because they have a new book out and it

4:24is a fabulous way to read about these stories.

4:29And it's a story of Nero and Paul and at the end, how they kind

4:33of intersect. It's called Nero and Paul, How the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler

4:38of Rome. Thank you two for joining me today.

4:40Oh, so happy to meet you finally.

4:43We have so many musical friends and so glad to reconnect with that guy.

4:47We spent a lot of time writing these books together.

4:49Good to see you. Which if you read the book, you can tell that you

4:53do spend a lot of time because it's almost like a book and then a

4:56podcast, a written podcast in the book because we get to see how you two

5:00interact. And it's funny, I found myself laughing out loud, especially when you talked about

5:05Paul having the unibrow and you and Kathy Lee's like, I like to think of

5:09myself as better looking. Oh, yes.

5:12Well, what I say about that is that he was no oil painting.

5:16Yeah. Yes, but I mean, you really take us inside of these.

5:22Two stories. And right at this moment, I feel like it's a it's a very

5:28interesting moment on the world stage to hear about these two stories, because as we're

5:34watching what's happening in the Middle East and we're watching the dictator in Iran and

5:40you hear about Nero and kind of his life taking this crazy turn, killing his

5:46mother. I mean, you start at a point where it is you see him whether

5:50deciding whether or not to take the the when you see Nero in the book

5:55at first, you you see him deciding whether to take the the sheet off of

5:59his mother's dead body. It's pretty provoking.

6:03Well, especially if you realize as you go further into our story that it's not

6:06as if he hasn't seen her naked.

6:08He was also having an affair at one point with his mother.

6:10Right, Brian? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's in the sources for sure.

6:14He didn't he didn't miss much, if you know what I'm saying, because it's so

6:18funny, because he they were the trajectories were very, very similar.

6:23I mean, Nero, a guy, Grapina, you can say you're the you're the one that

6:28knows all the details about this.

6:29But his mother was the one that orchestrated the fact that he would be Caesar.

6:35And all of her back backstage shenanigans are unbelievable, aren't they, Brian?

6:39Yeah. But and but but but they he wanted to build a Roman Empire, an

6:45earthly of ego and excess and beastly old stuff, just just nastiness.

6:52But Saul, before he was Paul, wanted his kind of fame and fortune, too, because

6:57he wanted to be in the Sanhedrin.

6:59He had a zeal for God he was extremely proud of.

7:02But it was it was not the God that he expected to meet on the

7:08road to Damascus. Is that a good way to say I like it?

7:11Yeah, he's a Ph .D.

7:12No, that's good. You're. But yeah, but you know what you're talking about, Kathy.

7:15Roberts University. OK. But I think in this it this is a moment in time

7:21where I love the way the story is presented because of exactly what you just

7:25said, because and it's a reminder to us.

7:29I mean, the Bible is alive, the Bible and these stories are living for a

7:33reason. We we remember them because they impact us today.

7:37And as you kind of unpack the story of Saul becoming Paul and and then

7:43his life being totally dedicated to Jesus and to getting people to follow Jesus and

7:50saving their lives. You see Nero, on the other hand, that becomes completely obsessed with

7:57self. And that's true today.

7:59We have to constantly push ourselves back toward Jesus because we live in a world

8:04right now where it's very easy to get consumed with self.

8:08To me, the me world.

8:09I'm glad you're saying that to Tudor, because it's easy, especially like you said, in

8:14today's world to think, well, this is about, you know, the book is about, you

8:17know, tyrants and political leaders.

8:20But we all have a tyrant within us.

8:22Like, it's easy to put, you know, Nero into the category of someone that's like

8:26in Iran or something. But we all have that ability.

8:28And so we actually we all need this story.

8:30We all need the gospel.

8:32There is this time we're in a moment in time where there's a lot of

8:35entitlement. And honestly, I didn't this book resonates with me more having run for office

8:42and understanding what happens behind the scenes.

8:45And and I think a lot of my listeners are also very politically in tune

8:50and they are watching what's happening just with all of the chess moves within your

8:56own party and the other party.

8:57You see it constantly. And I'll pick on some of the people who are out

9:01there and they're on the world stage.

9:04And they've said one thing the whole time they're in the United States, but then

9:08they go on the world stage and they say something different because they're almost like

9:11chameleons. And you can see that in what Nero is trying to do.

9:16He's trying to constantly find the next thing that's going to make him happy and

9:20lift him up. And he's eliminating all of the evidence of the past.

9:25But you can see that it lives within him.

9:27That to me was the most powerful thing is the internal struggle Nero goes through,

9:33even though he is very evil.

9:35It's still consuming him. It didn't start out evil.

9:40No baby starts out evil.

9:42I don't believe that. They come straight from the creator.

9:46And it's what the world does and which tentacles get around you and who do

9:50you listen to. A friend of mine today said, you know, what you worship is

9:54who you are. You know, and this man was worshiping his ego and he thought

10:00he was a great performer.

10:02I love the stories we tell about him trying to make people listen to him

10:06sing forever and ever. I've been accused of that.

10:09And he built theaters to himself.

10:13You could talk about what he did, Brian.

10:15I mean, he was ego.

10:16I mean, the stuff he built is different from the stuff that Herod built in

10:20our first book together. Yeah.

10:22Yeah. Well, that's right. I mean, they're both making an impact on their world, but

10:26maybe in different ways, different arenas.

10:27I mean, Nero much more in Rome.

10:29But the ego, both Herod and Nero both are marked by ego.

10:35But again, aren't we all?

10:36You know, it's easy to put that off onto sort of other people.

10:40But we all need this message of redemption and hope and how to overcome self

10:44and overcome evil with the message of Yeshua.

10:48Well, and you're constantly kind of...

10:50in between the two, because Saul was that also.

10:55I mean, Saul was brutal and kind of enjoyed the brutality that he inflicted.

11:03Yeah, but he did it, you know, I think he thought, he did think he

11:07had zeal for God. So he thought he was doing God's will.

11:10But you know what Neal does too?

11:12He's just doing a different God's will, you know?

11:15And so that reminds us that there's always, as you were talking about politics before

11:19Tudor, but there's always this, there's always evil spirits.

11:21And I don't know what everybody's different beliefs are.

11:23I know what mine are, what Kathy's are, but there's always evil spirits that are

11:27lurking around the world of power.

11:29They're drawn to power. In fact, the Bible calls them the powers.

11:32And so, you know, that's something to keep aware of and remember who is the

11:36victor, who is the ultimate power.

11:38Yeah, you said we don't fight against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities unseen.

11:44And because we can't see it physically, you know, we tend to think that, well,

11:48that's sort of made up stuff.

11:50No, I've seen demons. I've heard demons.

11:53I've encountered them more times than I'd like to.

11:56It's not a pleasant experience, but it certainly made me realize, no, this is real.

12:01And a friend of mine told me the other day, the fine theologian, he said,

12:05you know, we're supposed to pray in the name of Jesus and the demons have

12:08to flee. Well, he said, yes.

12:11And you know what they really hate to hear, Kath?

12:13And I go, what? He goes, flee in the name of Jesus who came in

12:18the flesh. And they go berserk over that because they know it's true.

12:23And they can't, they have to flee.

12:25They can't stand before it.

12:26So we were aware of all of that.

12:28We had things that came along as we were trying to make these books that

12:32made things far more difficult.

12:34We just, we just are praying people that we know it's, we know what this

12:37is. This is spiritual warfare.

12:38Let's get at it, you know, and then.

12:40Which can happen to anyone.

12:42It happens to everyone. It's just, we're aware of it because we are people who

12:47study the word of God in its original form.

12:50And that's the Hebrew in, I hate to call it the Old Testament and the

12:55Greek and the New. It's one story.

12:58We should have never broken it up.

13:00There's 400 years between the end of the old one and the beginning of Matthew,

13:05but there was 400 years of the Jewish people were, you know, enslaved in Egypt.

13:10We didn't stop telling the story.

13:12You know, I don't know why that's for another time, but we, we like to

13:17think of it as one unbelievable history lesson.

13:21And, and I was told years ago, and I love, in one of my rabbinical

13:25trips, when you go to Rock Road and Rabbi, Rock is Jesus, Rose, the Holy

13:29Land, and the rabbis' rabbinical teaching, they were telling me that, you know, when, when

13:33Abraham and Sarah were called of God to, to leave their home, which was modern

13:38day, it would be modern day, Iraq, everybody.

13:41That's, that kills me. Now, do we don't know that?

13:45It doesn't say so. It says from the land of Ur, right?

13:47Ur of the Caldees. Yes.

13:51And, but the interesting is they changed their names later.

13:54God changed their names. Why?

13:55Because he added the letter, the letter H, and that means the breath of God.

14:01He breathed his breath into them and they became new creatures, Abraham and Sarah, as

14:06we tend to know them.

14:08That, when you study the way, Ryan's a true, true genius at all of it.

14:14I'm just a student, but I soak this stuff up because it makes the Bible,

14:19which is really literally written in black and white to me, the stories are too

14:23epic. I mean, you're never going to learn in the Bible about Nero the way

14:27you're going to learn about Nero from our book.

14:29Yeah. Is that's, there's no time and there's no, you know, no space.

14:32Right. But for me, when my space started getting very, very lukewarm, I started studying,

14:38uh, in Israel with, with basically Messianic rabbis who know it every 10 layers down

14:44deep into, into the word of God.

14:47And, uh, it's the black and white Bible that I had been studying for years.

14:51In fact, I read the Bible from cover to cover 11 times in 11 years

14:56and got so bored out of my gourd.

14:58And I, and I said, there's stuff in here that's not true.

15:01I don't, I can't read it anymore.

15:02It's not, a lot of it is not true.

15:04And I realized it was because it was not, it was a bad translation.

15:08It was a bad translation of what the word really, really said.

15:12And once I started learning that, and that doesn't mean I can speak Greek or

15:16speak Hebrew. I can't. Uh, but I, we studied the original words and then the

15:21black and white goes to technicolor and it goes to Dolby sound.

15:25And it's, it's, you're ready to just dig into it because it's so rich.

15:30Yeah. That, that is what I found to be the best part of this.

15:35And I know at the beginning of the book, you say, you know, some of

15:38this is what we imagine the conversations must be like, that we have to kind

15:41of infer what, what they must have said, but it does take you in to

15:48a life on that is not unlike what we, we battle every day.

15:53And I think that what you said about Paul, Saul becoming Paul was so important

15:59that you said, you know, he was just doing what he thought a different God

16:04wanted him to do. Well, he just didn't know it, you know, he was serving

16:10Jehovah God, he thought, but so you're right.

16:13And, and yet he was wrong, you know?

16:16And, and that's what I think we, I think.

16:18think that has to kind of be, and you can correct me if you think

16:21I'm wrong, but I think that has to kind of be a constant struggle for

16:24us because oftentimes I hear people say, well, God told me to do this and

16:28it was clear as day.

16:29And I think that leaves some of us who don't hear God that way going,

16:33well, God doesn't talk to me.

16:35I must not know what he wants.

16:36And this book made me realize you're constantly fighting to make sure you're following what

16:43he does want. And you have to be aware that there is always going to

16:49be spirits, bad spirits that are going to try to get to you and convince

16:54you that you are more important.

16:56I mean, it takes me right back to Eve.

16:58It's like, why shouldn't you know this stuff?

17:00And right now there's so many things in the world that everybody's going, you deserve

17:04to know this. And I keep saying, why?

17:07I don't know that I am supposed to know that.

17:09Yeah. That's a fundamental point you're making actually, because the nature of sin, if you

17:13think about the temptation of Adam and Eve, the temptation is not, well, you know,

17:17pleasure, luxury, sexuality, pride. I mean, all of those things are related, but ultimately the

17:22temptation is knowledge and the forbidden fruit, right?

17:26You know, the apple with a bite taken out of it, which is the symbol

17:28of a major corporation today.

17:31And so, you know, that's the ultimate human temptation.

17:34And it is what Satan was tempted by because he said, I will be like

17:37the most high. I will know the things that I don't, I'm not supposed to

17:40know. And so at a core level, the temptation of mankind is to seek after

17:44that kind of arcane or occult knowledge.

17:47And it gives power and it gives wealth and it gives riches.

17:50So all of those things are related.

17:51So our story is very much about knowing the truth.

17:54You know, Paul did not know the truth as he was Saul at that time

17:58until the truth encountered him.

18:00And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

18:02And so Paul had to meet capital T truth, not an abstraction, but a person

18:06who then changed his orientation.

18:08That's everybody's story. It's time to meet the truth.

18:11If you haven't understood the truth, the capital T truth, who is a person, you

18:15don't yet understand the world.

18:17And you can't be set free.

18:19Yeah. Let's take a quick commercial break.

18:21We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon podcast.

18:24It's happening across America. Men are being allowed to compete in women's sports, robbing girls

18:30of scholarships, medals, titles, and safety.

18:33For the first time in history, the U .S.

18:36Supreme Court heard two cases that could decide the future of women's sports nationwide.

18:41Alliance Defending Freedom needs your voice today.

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18:52side with truth and fairness.

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18:59Hey, it's Ben Ferguson. And I want you to pause what you're doing for just

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19:25She woke up and just long enough to tell her mom, I can't take the

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19:33Her parents drove hours to find a doctor who tried everything, but she needed a

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19:43And that is when Compassion International stepped in.

19:47Now through compassion, Alejandra was treated and against all odds, she survived.

19:53She lived because someone just like you took action.

19:57Right now, unfortunately, there are children just like Alejandra who won't survive unless someone like

20:03you steps in. Compassion International partners with local churches providing children with the support that

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20:23You can visit Compassion .com.

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23:02What you're saying is kind of blowing my mind because I think about how many

23:05people, especially children, my kids are at Christian schools and there's the, you see the

23:11battle between the Christian message and the message that's coming through their phones that you

23:15talked about. And you hear people talk about going down this dark rabbit hole of

23:20information. That is, it is such a terrible temptation.

23:24And the information is not necessarily right.

23:27And too often. Rarely. These kids are getting pulled.

23:32And even adults. I mean, we're getting pulled into this too.

23:35And I tell my girls all the time, when the Bible talks about gossip, it's

23:40so much bigger than you just gossiping at school.

23:43But think about how you gossiping at school affects the interpersonal relationships of all the

23:48girls that you know. And imagine that on a worldwide scale through your phone.

23:52Our words are so powerful.

23:56Scripture is very clear about, you know, you have the choice.

23:59Choose life or death with your words.

24:01Then it says, choose life, you know.

24:04And every time I haven't, I've regretted it.

24:07You know, it's easy just to say, oh, did you see that?

24:10You know, it's constant. And it's not like you're constantly monitoring yourself and you're thinking,

24:15oh, God's not pleased with me now.

24:16It's just a tender reminder most of the time, Kath, you know better than that.

24:20Yeah, that's not what I, that doesn't honor me.

24:23That's that spirit inside of you, darling.

24:25That's the Holy Spirit. He doesn't condemn.

24:28Jesus did not come to condemn through the law, but to fulfill it.

24:32And, you know, and that's another reason why I wish we'd never, the problem with

24:36so much of our world is that we think the Old Testament was about the

24:39Jews and the New Testament is for the Christians.

24:41Right. It's for all of us.

24:43Some of us are born into it because of my Jewish heritage.

24:46Others are grafted. People assume that Jews, they, they, they, they, what's the word I'm

24:51looking for, Brian? They convert to Christianity.

24:55No, no, Jews don't convert.

24:58They've just received the Messiah.

25:00They had not understood for all those years.

25:04Gentiles convert. I appreciate what Kathy is saying, too, about the unity of the story

25:09between the two Testaments. And it's so true.

25:12And, you know, Tudor, as you think about like our book and it's landing into

25:16the world in the time when the word Israel or the Jews or something like

25:19that is connected with airplanes and battles and wars.

25:23That's not what our book is about, other than, you know, of course, Nero waged

25:26wars. But our book is about, it is about Israel, but it's about a spiritual

25:30concept. It's about the message of Israel.

25:32And as Kathy is saying, at the beginning of that message and the unfolding of

25:35the story, chapter by chapter, culminating with Israel's Messiah, Yeshua.

25:39And then what our book is about is how this guy, Saul, who was a

25:44rabbi, it's a Jewish name, and he takes a Greek name so he can relate

25:47to the rest of the world or a Roman name.

25:50But he takes the message of Israel to the world.

25:52And we begin the book talking about the temple in Jerusalem and how the veil

25:56of that temple was torn, which usually people think, well, that means, you know, you

25:59can get into the Holy of Holies.

26:01It's the opposite. It's that the Holy of Holies is rushing out to come and

26:05be inside of you. And so there's a kind of, there's a bursting forth of

26:10the holy presence of God, the Ruach HaKodesh in Hebrew.

26:14And so that the temple can now be anywhere.

26:17And Paul says, I'm going to take that message on now that I know the

26:19truth. I'm going to go to the end of the world.

26:21And we take him in the story to the end of what his world was,

26:25which was Spain. And so, and he fulfilled it.

26:28And so that's the timeless message, is that Israel's message is the message of Jesus

26:33and it is for the world.

26:36And just the way when, Kathy Lee, when you were talking about this coming out

26:42in Technicolor and Dolby Sound, just the way you describe that veil also, the number

26:49of people that had to weave it, the number, I think they did it every

26:54two years, the thickness of it, how many people had to carry it, made it

26:58so different to me, you know, because I think of it as like tour.

27:03It wasn't wispy. It was substantive, you know?

27:07And therefore, when it was torn in two, you had a major piece of fabric

27:12that was being ripped, not by humans.

27:13in hands, but by divine hands to give that holiness to the rest of the

27:17world. I'm sorry, Brian. I'm just because I got excited that just the other day,

27:21I love all the things they're just discovering all the time, all the time to

27:25confirm what we know is truth.

27:27And did you guys read that they've now scientifically absolutely proven that in AD 33,

27:34there was a massive, massive earthquake right there where Jesus was crucified, right there.

27:41That happened. The skies went dark.

27:45They have all kinds of technical ways now to prove these things.

27:49I'm also working, and I'll come back and talk to you when this thing comes

27:52out, working with a friend on the story of the Shroud, the Shroud of Turin.

27:57Well, there's absolutely scientific proof now.

27:59It was not the burial cloth of Jesus.

28:02It started out that way.

28:03It's the resurrection cloth of Jesus.

28:06Because that image could never have been made without photography.

28:11And the kind of energy that went into producing that image, and the way God

28:16has protected that Shroud all these two centuries, two millennia, is amazing.

28:22So God is just confirming what those of us who seek have believed.

28:26And that's why I didn't like what I was reading in the Bible.

28:29I knew, even as a 10 -year -old little girl, that Jesus didn't curse that

28:33tree, the Thicamore fig tree.

28:35I said, I know, teacher, but that doesn't, I know you said it, but I

28:39don't think that means that.

28:40And why does a 10 -year -old girl kind of understand that?

28:44Because I said, my Jesus created that tree.

28:46He wouldn't curse something he created.

28:48Later on a rabbinical trip, I discovered that the sycamore fig tree represented, just as

28:54the olive tree represents the people of the Jewish people, the sycamore fig tree represented

28:59the religious people, and that was the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and he was cursing

29:04them for not feeding the people that they were supposed to take care of.

29:08And he called them hypocrites.

29:09And he called them, you know, you have your whitewashed tombs, but inside your dead

29:14man's bones. Well, the word for hypocrite in Greek, I love this, actors.

29:20You're actors. Yeah. Just stand under a mask.

29:25Yeah. That's, I mean, yes, yes, you are.

29:27You're pretending to be someone you're not.

29:29Well, Kathy, that's a good point.

29:31And, you know, speaking of trees being cursed, the scripture says, cursed is he who

29:35hangs on a tree. So when the one who is cursed in our place is

29:40Jesus, and there's a tree at the beginning in the Garden of Eden, there's a

29:43tree in the end in the book of Revelation, and there's a tree right in

29:45the middle. And that is the one on which our Messiah hung.

29:48But he didn't stay there, as you pointed out.

29:51So he took the curse for us, and we can praise him for that.

29:54But how did you come to the point where you said you wanted to, you

29:58have another, you wrote a book before this, this was Herod and Mary, was that?

30:03Okay. So you have, and that leads into Nero and Paul.

30:08How did you come to this point?

30:10Because, Kathy, you were saying that life really changed when you went there.

30:15Explain that to me, because I want our listeners to really understand what it is

30:21to walk within those footsteps of Jesus.

30:24Well, not everybody, especially now.

30:26Nobody's, you don't want to go to the Holy Land right now.

30:29Things have got to calm down, and they will.

30:31And there will be another time where our Rock Road and Rabbi tours can start

30:35going again. I gave that name to Rabbi Sobel so he could start the touring

30:38business with it. And I suggest you go with somebody that actually knows the Scriptures

30:44before. A lot of these pastors think they do.

30:47But if your pastor thinks that Jesus was a carpenter, you know, he hasn't read

30:53the Scriptures we read in the Greek and the Hebrew.

30:56The word for what Jesus and Joseph did in the New Testament, which I hate

31:01to say, but it is in Greek, and the word is tekton.

31:05And if you look it up, and anybody can on their Ask Siri, you know,

31:09what's the original Greek? It says architect slash builder.

31:12But there was no buildable wood in first century A .D.

31:15back then. And Herod didn't build the temple with wood.

31:18He accentuated it with some wood, but there was no buildable wood.

31:21It all had to come down from the cedars of Lebanon, you know, along the

31:26Via Maris, which is, you know, the west, it's the beautiful, beautiful coast of Israel,

31:31and made into rafts and then taken apart in, well, what's modern day Tel Aviv,

31:37basically, right, Brian? And then taken over land by animals and slaves, tons and tons

31:44of slaves. I mean, Herod moved a mountain to be higher than another mountain, just

31:49so he could be buried on the mountain that was higher.

31:51These are the kind of egos we deal with.

31:54You don't learn that unless you go to Herodium, which was his temple in his

31:58palace in Bethlehem. And you learn that stuff when you go there.

32:03But you can look at my videos that I did with the, or you can

32:06read our books, and we'll take you there.

32:09You don't have to get on a plane.

32:10You don't need a passport, you know, just to just down.

32:14In fact, I wish a lot of people, and they're doing it more and more,

32:17I did all the, and I always do for all my books, not just the

32:20two that I've written with Brian, but I do the audio versions of them, because

32:25I don't want somebody else speaking our words or my words, you know, and I'm

32:29so familiar. Although these ones, these two books took me four days each.

32:33Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot.

32:36Yeah, and I want to make sure I'm saying the names properly, and the places

32:40properly, and all. of that.

32:41So we really tried to be very scholarly about this in the places that, as

32:46you mentioned, we had to use a little imagination.

32:48We footnote it, basically. We let them know.

32:51You know, we know what, Brian's the scholar, I am not.

32:55But we were really careful about that because we don't want to be guilty of

33:00telling something that we don't believe is true.

33:03And it's all in the realm of possibility, of course.

33:07But I don't know, you could probably explain the way you dealt with it.

33:11Well, you said it well.

33:12You said it well. And Kathy keeps calling me a scholar, but then you listen

33:15to her talk and she knows what she's talking about, doesn't she?

33:18Well, she does. And she's being humble.

33:20But she's learned a lot over the years.

33:23I think you are. But anyway, I mean, the point is like, she's exactly right.

33:29The readers of this book, you know, you might not ever get a chance.

33:32I hope you do get to go to Israel or in the case of Paul,

33:36Greece, which is where it culminates.

33:39And so until the day comes that you can walk in the footsteps of these

33:43great heroes, our books are meant to be very vivid, very story like, very cinematic.

33:48And, you know, we have to imagine some things, but we have texts and sources

33:51behind those things. So in the meantime, to our readers, we invite you to be

33:56swept up, not into a bunch of dry facts and dates or something like that,

34:00but to be swept up into a double saga where you have this ridiculous antagonist,

34:05Nero, and all the people swirling around him that were like that as well.

34:09And then you have this protagonist who's flawed and who always says, you know, I

34:14was a chief of sinners and yet he's got this redemptive arc.

34:18And of course, at the end, the two of them crashed together in this, you

34:22know, the end of their story as Paul finally gets to Rome.

34:25So it really, it really reads in a story -like way.

34:29We want it to come across that way.

34:31Yeah. And in almost a Hollywood -like way where you're going, this story cannot possibly

34:36be, but it also makes you realize this is how Hollywood came to be, was

34:41the stories of the past were so vivid and so unrealistic.

34:45And yet this happened. And it's interesting because as you read through, there's this desire

34:51for Paul to rub off on Nero.

34:54You know, there's this human desire to go, get it, finally get it, and redeem

35:00yourself. You know, redemption is something that I think is always lingering in our hearts

35:06and the need for redemption.

35:10And I think that's that spirit that's constantly calling us back and saying, be wary

35:14of the idols, be wary of that sinful nature that's pulling you.

35:19Mm -hmm. Test them. Yeah.

35:22And yet, you know that there are people who never are.

35:27You know, Nero never, he never turned, he never was redeemed.

35:31He never turned toward good.

35:33And how do you prepare yourself to stop those people from being in your life,

35:39to stop that influence, which I think is very easy to have that influence in

35:45your life right now? Because people can get to you.

35:47Evil forces can get to you so much easier today than any other time.

35:52Yeah, but the people ask us all, and I'm sure you too, Tudor, you know,

35:57do you think there's more evil in the world?

35:59I'm asked that every day, so is Brian.

36:01So it may seem that way because, you know, people have phones and they collect

36:06the same things we would never see.

36:08And then there's 24 -hour, of course, channels where, you know, you see images you

36:13wish you never did and you can't get rid of them.

36:15You know, they're there. But I say, no, it seems like it.

36:19But the truth is, evil is in the story in the scripture starts in Genesis

36:24in the garden. And whether you believe that metaphorically or literally, it doesn't change the

36:31story for me. It's, you know, it's fascinating cinematically, of course.

36:36But it's, the point of what I'm trying to make is that even as God

36:41is walking in the coolness of the evening with the Adam and Eve, the serpent

36:44is in the garden. So why should we, you know, he was always there.

36:49Always there. Always there. And so, but the subtitle of our book is Living Hope.

36:57Ancient Evil, which has always been with us, juxtaposed against living hope.

37:03And if you've read our book, Herod and Mary, and I hope you have, if

37:08you haven't, you will also find it fascinating.

37:11It ends with basically Herod's death as Mary and the baby Jesus are returning back

37:19from Egypt because the one who sought to kill them is dead.

37:24And we, at the end of that book, I was doing the audio version.

37:29I, it took me an hour to get through it.

37:31I would sob every time.

37:35And I, we had, I had to read the end of the book.

37:38You have to read it.

37:39You know, I don't call in Gwyneth Paltrow to do it because I can't, you

37:42know, do it. And, but even when you listen to the audio, you hear me

37:48just, I can't, you know what I'm talking about, Brian, I don't want to give

37:51the book, the end of the book away, but we needed a way to express

37:55why the, the, the, the guy who called himself the, the King of the Jews,

37:59who wasn't even a Jew and Mary who had just given birth to the King

38:02of Kings. Yeah. You know, it's just profoundly moving to me, even right.

38:09now I'm remembering it. I had my book, my hip replaced the next day.

38:13I just stumbled into that the next day.

38:15I'm done. I'm done. I'm glad you brought those things up because, you know, as

38:20we talk about great evil and we're talking about demonic powers and evil spirits and

38:23kind of the tyrants of the world, whether they're in the first century or today,

38:27it's important to recognize that the story is one of hope.

38:31And you say, well, you know, like a Nero, like Tudor, you said, he never,

38:34he never converted. That's true.

38:35We have no evidence. He commits suicide and he's pitiful.

38:38But as Paul came and made his way to Rome, the seeds of the gospel

38:44fell under the soil that was good.

38:46So Paul getting there, yeah, okay.

38:47He didn't convert Nero as far as we could ever tell, but many others did.

38:52In fact, the scripture says that there are some in the emperor's household who are

38:56believers, which would be Nero's household.

38:58So the gospel goes for...

39:00Right. Yes. I found that fascinating.

39:02Yeah. There's a triumph to it all.

39:04And sometimes that triumph is secret or hidden, but God's up to something, even in

39:09the lives of your listeners.

39:11Let's take a quick commercial break.

39:13We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon podcast.

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39:52Hey, it's Ben Ferguson. And I want to be honest with you for a second

39:56about how an act of compassion really feels.

39:59A couple of years ago, I made the choice to partner with an amazing organization

40:04called Compassion International. Why? Because I wanted to sponsor a child in need.

40:10It was a nice idea, sure, but I had no idea just how much that

40:14simple act would change my life as well.

40:17I sponsored Nadia and got to watch her life change right in front of my

40:22eyes, going from starving literally alone on the streets to getting the health care and

40:27education she needs to reach her God -given full potential.

40:32I got to be a part of that change and the light of that compassion

40:36not only illuminates in her, it illuminates now in me.

40:40That is the power of compassion.

40:43The light of Christ shines on all of us.

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43:35I think the story of grace.

43:36is so important in this book because that is where we get caught up in

43:41saying we can never be redeemed.

43:42We can never be good enough is that we can't, we don't understand grace.

43:46We don't understand his love.

43:48And so often when I'm frustrated with myself, I say, what would I do if

43:55my kids had made a mistake?

43:57I would absolutely hug them and love them.

44:00And I would just, it would not matter.

44:03I will always love them.

44:04How much more does God love me than that?

44:07How much more grace does he have for me?

44:09And that to me was where Paul was.

44:12Yeah, right. Well, he was aware of his sins.

44:16And so his gospel wasn't some abstraction as he preached grace.

44:20And he's the apostle of grace.

44:22He knew first and foremost, I have received grace.

44:25And then he passed on that message and praise God for his grace.

44:29We all need it. So I want people, I want people right now as we

44:33go into, not only are we going into the Easter season, but in the world,

44:37we're going into a very challenging season when it comes to politics.

44:42And politics is, I would say to your point of evil has always been there.

44:47Politics is there, but in abundance now.

44:51And I see, I see younger and younger people getting affected by the stresses of

44:55politics and by the false teachings.

44:59And now we see false prophets and false teachers getting into mixing that I want

45:04to be a political leader, but I'm also going to bring a false gospel to

45:07you. And we're seeing that out of Texas right now, where we have a candidate

45:10who's saying God is a woman and God is non -binary.

45:13And the story of Mary is the story of why God approves of abortion and

45:19all these crazy things. And that to me is like, this is a time to

45:24get deep into a book like this, where you can really feel those times and

45:30see God's grace, but also God's lessons and how true his word is and what

45:36is the word of the false teachers and how to determine which is which and

45:42help your children determine which is which and follow the path of the Lord.

45:46Well, that's one of the reasons I keep writing all of these kinds of books

45:50and making my movies to the way I shot a lot of it in Israel.

45:54And it's just important that we understand where we came from and how we got

45:59here now. And I, as a woman who had a Jewish father who was an

46:05immigrant from Russia, he rushed, he escaped the pogroms.

46:10My mother's father was also an immigrant.

46:12There's a lot of talk about that.

46:13I don't get involved politically, but I just, I don't even know what I was

46:18going to say. Do you know, Brian, I've probably done a hundred interviews in the

46:21last page. Well, whatever it is, it's going to be about Yeshua and the goodness

46:27of his message, for sure.

46:28Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was going to say is that so many of us

46:32who are believers, and we sincerely try to follow Yeshua, or if you call him

46:37Christ, same, same person, same person.

46:40But one is Hebrew, and one is from the apostolic period after Jesus was resurrected

46:46and ascended. And, you know, people were not called Christians when Jesus was on the

46:52earth. They were called followers of the way.

46:54And then, of course, we know what happened.

46:58Jesus went away, and then it became the new period.

47:00And then it was called the apostolic way, because it was.

47:03It was different. They weren't disciples anymore in the same way.

47:06They were taken, they were to take it, what's it mean in Greek?

47:09To take away, to go forth with, to be an apostle.

47:12The word apostle means sent out.

47:14Yeah. He was sent, they were the eyewitnesses.

47:17Yeah. So I just wish people would understand where we came from as, from a

47:22Jewish perspective. It's important. Jesus was a rabbi.

47:25He kept every one of the festivals.

47:28And all the main things that happened in Jesus's life, Tutor, happened during the festivals

47:34that we read about. Lots of them.

47:35And 90 % of what Jesus talks about was from Galilee.

47:39But he went to the festivals.

47:40And we say Easter in our culture.

47:44But it was not Easter Sunday that Jesus was resurrected.

47:48It was firstfruits. It's called firstfruits in the Jewish faith.

47:53Tell them what firstfruits is.

47:55Well, firstfruits, and Jesus is called the firstfruits of the resurrection.

47:57But it basically means that the Israelites would bring in, when they got a harvest,

48:02they would offer the beginnings of the harvest because they said, Lord, we know you're

48:06going to bring much more.

48:07So when Jesus is resurrected, he's the firstfruits of a harvest to come.

48:11There's going to be so many more resurrections and life.

48:15If he's the life, much more life is going to be harvested in the wake

48:19of that one. So it has a reference to that.

48:23I just love learning about that.

48:25We know, we know about Passover.

48:27He's crucified on Passover. But think about Easter, because that's really, is it a pagan

48:31term? It's just not Hebrew.

48:33The word Easter is like from Ishtar, I think, which was a goddess or something.

48:37See, that's where those things come from.

48:39And the east, so it's related to that, like resurrection and the east, the sun.

48:43Well, it's just, it's the word everybody uses.

48:46And so I guess we have to embrace it on that level.

48:48But as you're pointing out, there are roots behind it.

48:51Yeah. I mean, there's so much, there is so much to learn.

48:54And I love that you wrote the book.

48:56I, like I said, I love the way the book is written.

48:58For those of you who haven't read it, you read a chapter, you're taken in.

49:03It's like, it is like you're.

49:04watching a movie. You're taken right to that time.

49:07And then we get this commentary from the two of you at the end, which

49:10as you can see, if you're listening, you know that it's beautiful.

49:14It is amazing. And it is really thoughtful, but it's also very natural.

49:18So I love the way the book is written.

49:20I encourage people to go out and get it.

49:22It is Nero and Paul, How the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler of Rome.

49:27So tell everybody, it's just everywhere, right?

49:31All the bookstores. Yes. It's available March 10th.

49:34You can pre -order it right now, that and the audio.

49:37And yeah, I think it'll take you on a journey.

49:40We learned from our first book, Herod and Mary, that we did the coda at

49:44the very end. The coda is really a musical term to repeat, to go back

49:48and discuss. But I think this way works better because you're right.

49:54The chapters are very specific.

49:55And then we talk in our codas about how we can apply it to today.

50:01And what can we learn from this that I can literally take away from that

50:05and apply it to my own life?

50:06Because otherwise it's just entertainment.

50:08And we want to entertain with our book.

50:10We really do. I've been an entertainer all my life.

50:13And I don't know any other way to even think except for in rhyme and

50:16lyrics and cinematically. That's who I am.

50:20He comes more from the academic world.

50:22So it's a good combination of Yes.

50:24That's why it's such a good mix.

50:26Honestly, that's what I was thinking.

50:28My daughter is always saying, I want a better study Bible that kind of explains

50:32things to me. And this is, this is like you said, this takes some stories

50:36from the Bible and it just kind of blows them up and goes in deeper.

50:39But that at the end, that study part of it takes you to today, which

50:43I think is so beautiful.

50:45I think it was Cody's idea.

50:46Cody. Yeah. Your son, Cody.

50:47Oh, he's a great dude.

50:48Oh yeah. Cody's, Cody's got his thumbprints all over this book too.

50:51He's such a good dude.

50:53Yeah. He's a keeper. Yeah.

50:54That's good. I love that guy.

50:55Yesterday, I liked his wife so much better than him.

50:57I said, I love Erica.

50:59She's so much nicer to me than you are.

51:02That's hilarious. That's why I married her.

51:04We all do that. But even, even the way you explain, I'll say this and

51:09I know we've gone a little over, but you're so fascinating to talk to you.

51:12I will say even the way, and I could see your connection to Mary.

51:16And I understand why you're saying the last book was hard for you to read

51:19because even the way you described Mary watching Jesus crucified and saying, my son's 35.

51:26What would I do as a mom?

51:29And that I would put myself in that place.

51:31And I think the same, I was thinking as you were taking me through that

51:35in the book, I was thinking, yes, yes.

51:37As a mom, you would do anything.

51:39And we have to remember that what we know, she didn't know.

51:44She didn't have that foresight of what was next.

51:47You know, she didn't know that she knew she had enough people telling her this

51:52will be right. But that human side of her is he's still getting pulled away

51:56that he's not with her every day.

52:00And yet she's at the cross, but she's also at the tomb and, and open

52:05room when the, when the Holy Spirit descends, she's there too.

52:08Yes. And that is Pentecost.

52:11That was, that's always been, that's a, it's a Greek word, but it's, it's something

52:14that the Jews celebrate. That's 50 days after Passover.

52:18Right. Right. And this is the kind of thing that we wanted those, those codas

52:21to do, where it's just like, like you're doing too, to rethink, I have to

52:25think about this from my own life.

52:26And if it's just a book about sort of the first century or people from

52:29long ago, it doesn't have that, but so many people love Kathy's voice.

52:32They heard it in their ears for, you know, every day for so many years,

52:36all those listeners, and now a new generation that's getting to know her.

52:39And so we wanted, we wanted to talk about the book.

52:43So you get a little window at the end of each chapter into what we're

52:46thinking and how it might apply and jokes and, and, and insights.

52:50And we share back and forth.

52:51And so, like you said, it's like a little miniature podcast at, at the end

52:54of each chapter. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

52:57I loved it. I, I encourage everybody to go out and get it.

53:01Again, it's Nero and Paul, how the gospel of grace defeated the ruler of Rome.

53:05And it is Kathy Lee Gifford and Dr.

53:08Brian Litvin. Thank you so much for sharing today.

53:10It was amazing talking to you both.

53:12Thanks for having us. God bless and shalom, shalom, everybody.

53:16God bless you. Yes. And thank you all for listening to the podcast.

53:20God bless you. Get the book, go out and make sure you tune into the

53:23next podcast. We love having you all listening.

53:25And thank you so much for joining me today.

53:27We loved having you here.

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56:12you to watch this video

The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Kathie Lee Gifford and Bryan Litfin on Nero, Paul, Easter Hope, and Grace