The Manosphere Report

0:12we were trying to figure out how long it's been since uh it's been somewhere

0:18in the neighborhood close to five years yeah a lot of water into the bridge

0:22your appearance on this show boy did that create a lot of problems yeah um

0:30yeah i i didn't expect you ever having me on again i thought maybe spotify

0:33was just gonna say hello no you were right like this is a victory dance

0:39like it turned out that all your warnings and all the things that you were

0:43saying about the problems turned out to be true well thanks and i know you've

0:47said that on a few shows every time you do somebody sends me a clip

0:51and sees hey rogan said you did the right thing what was it like for

0:55you first of all you know they were trying to label you a quack and

1:01a kook and someone didn't know what they're talking about it didn't i don't think

1:04it worked with everybody i mean it worked with people that weren't paying attention but

1:09anybody that really paid attention to your background said no this guy's very credible i

1:14mean don't you have like nine patents on mrna vaccine technology yeah on the mrna

1:20yeah and a total of about 15 i think yeah and you also took the

1:25vaccine and had a horrible adverse event a series of them yeah yeah that that

1:31at the time it was so early that was when the national guard was still

1:34doing it and that was moderna and um the i was embarrassed uh by to

1:41have these experiences um and i was embarrassed when i got covid in early 2020

1:47um you know looking back uh there was so much so much fear um so

1:56much uh uh oh anger and anxiety and everything wrapped around all of this and

2:07in retrospect it was you know it was promoted but it was also very organic

2:13uh you know it was it was you know looking back being honest about it

2:18it was a frightening time what was happening and um and yeah i i you

2:25know i had those experiences uh my uh doc who was a cardiologist was like

2:31why were you so stupid to take this uh your doctor said that too yeah

2:35in 2021 yeah um she was 20 or 20 it was 2021 2021 yeah um

2:43i was going to a kind of a cardiologist that had left um traditional medical

2:50practice at uva and the associated um hospitals and i was going to her for

2:58uh hormone replacement therapy and uh bioidentical hormone replacement therapy and um she was monitoring

3:05a lot of things and and um yeah that was her response why did you

3:09do this of course i've had that question a thousand times since you know why

3:13were you so stupid you were the one that should have known um and so

3:17i have to answer that still uh it's kind of gets a little tiresome what

3:22was your perspective on the vaccine before you took it um to be honest i

3:30was a little i was amazed i was amazed that the that the claims that

3:38the problems that i encountered when i had been working on it had been solved

3:43i didn't see how that could be the case but i knew that a huge

3:47amount of money had been thrown at it so it was possible what were the

3:50problems uh in my hands it was inflammation primarily it was also you know the

3:56it was absolutely not localizable uh it was in in the monkey models that we

4:03tested it was incredibly inflammatory it didn't give long um levels long prolonged levels of

4:11expression it was hard to make it's kind of back then it was uh almost

4:17a little bit of witchcraft you'd drop i mean for me as a graduate student

4:21when i was doing that it was incredibly scary because it was a couple thousand

4:25dollars worth of reagents in a little tiny tube and you know back in the

4:30late 80s that was real money and uh and it didn't always work the reaction

4:36so you know it was it was a little bit of a wing and a

4:39prayer uh but then um as i started working with with animal models and with

4:45the different formulations i could come up with a variety of different compounds and formulations

4:51that worked pretty well in cell culture but not so well in animals and uh

4:58i spent a lot of time trying to do that optimize that and what i

5:03ended up with is just seeing that it it really caused you know i'm sorry

5:08to use medical jargon i'm that's kind of where i'm from so that's the language

5:11no it's probably better if you know it it caused a lot of inflammation uh

5:16you know white cell infiltrates really aggressive white cell infiltrates in my hands in both

5:22mice and monkeys and i'd abandoned it as as something that just uh you know

5:28was was useful in in research in particularly in cell culture but i just didn't

5:35see it maturing as a as an efficient delivery strategy with uh low risk you

5:42know acceptable risk in animals and that also became the experience in uh at this

5:49company that i had first joined where a lot of the original patents were filed

5:54vikal uh they they abandoned the rna because they couldn't make it uh and uh

6:02they turned largely to this strange discovery that we had that was a negative control

6:08that The RNA alone or DNA alone was actually more effective in animal models, mice

6:18for instance, than it was to use the positively charged fats.

6:24Now people call them lipid nanoplexes, lots of fancy words around it.

6:30It was just positively charged fats of various types that were mixed that bind the

6:35DNA or the RNA and kind of spontaneously assemble.

6:40And a lot of work went into trying to improve that.

6:43We did what we could in the 90s when I was at Davis to try

6:47to advance that technology and develop new lipids.

6:52And we had a number of them get patented and they were marketed by ProMega

6:55and others, but could never solve the delivery in vivo.

7:00But this group up in University of British Columbia that had been banging away at

7:05this kind of related liposome tech for years and years, even before I had known

7:10anything about it, were the ones that kind of came up with the magic sauce

7:18that is used essentially by both the Moderna and Pfizer products.

7:25And that's the stuff that we've all been exposed to, those that have taken it.

7:31So, when you were first experimenting, you said it couldn't be localized.

7:35So, meaning that in the injection site, it was supposed to be there and then

7:39your body was supposed to produce antibodies because of the injection.

7:43Yeah, and it goes all over.

7:44But it went all over the body.

7:46Yeah, it does. But the assertion, what they were telling you when you got the

7:48shot initially was that it was not going to leave the injection site.

7:52Yeah, and I called my colleagues at University of British Columbia that I had known

8:00back in the day as I was grappling with whether or not to take the

8:06product because I had to travel.

8:08And as you recall back then, forget international travel if you weren't jabbed.

8:12Even national travel? Yeah. You couldn't get on an airplane.

8:15But in Canada, it was even worse.

8:17You couldn't get on a train.

8:20Yeah, so I called Peter and had a chat with him.

8:26And he said that they had solved the problems of the distribution that now when

8:30you injected it, it would stay local.

8:32It would go to the draining lymph nodes.

8:34It was much more effective and that they didn't have those safety issues anymore.

8:39So, that was one of the reasons why I decided to go ahead.

8:42Did you ask how they solved that problem?

8:43Yeah, yeah. I asked in detail because I knew some of the nature of the

8:48formulations. Again, I don't want to get too technical.

8:51But what was claimed was that the incorporation of polyethylene glycol, so this is, you

9:00know, you would know that as antifreeze.

9:03But it's in the liposome world, it's long been known as a way to create

9:09what are known as stealth liposomes that circulate in your body for a long period

9:14of time and make it so that these particles don't get inactivated by extracellular proteins

9:21and the liver and stuff like that.

9:23And so, he was using the gentleman in particular named Peter Cullis.

9:30By the way, he's the one that should have got the Nobel Prize for these

9:33products as far as I'm concerned and got slighted in the pick.

9:37But Peter Cullis said that he had, they had experimented with a lot of different

9:43structures of the fat particles, chemical structures.

9:47So, they came up with some that had these properties of staying localized and then

9:53built the formulations in ways that were similar to what I'd done with cholesterol and

9:58other things. But then also added these shorter polyethylene glycol molecules attached with a really

10:06short organic, you call it fat or gasoline -like molecule, that put the peg into

10:14the liposome particle. But in a way that once it got into the body, it

10:21would fall off. And so, this is, you know, some people have the sensation as

10:26I did with my second jab of, you know, you get it and then suddenly

10:30you feel tingling in the end of your fingers or things like that.

10:33That may be the peg.

10:34But it was those advances in the components, because these are self -assembling particles, materials

10:42that were used that Peter and his group...

10:49Peter McCullis? No. Peter McCullis.

10:52P -I -E -T -E -R.

10:53Okay. From UBC and his group built these products with in this technology.

11:00And that was, they had it available, their choice, because they created companies for this.

11:09I mean, a ton of money must have been made, because they licensed it non

11:14-exclusively to BioNTech and Moderna.

11:19And that's still kind of the core tech that makes this particular category of products

11:26work. And so, this was enough to convince you that they had solved that problem?

11:33Yeah, I took his word at it.

11:35I mean, he's an extremely experienced, knowledgeable liposome formulation expert, quite senior.

11:43He's older than me, by another decade at least, and been doing this forever.

11:48And he asserted that he had solved the problems.

11:51And I believed him. I needed to travel internationally.

11:56And also, there was this buzz going around at the time that if you had

12:03long COVID, which at the time, if you think back to then, there was a

12:09whole cloud over even using the words long COVID.

12:13That the idea that you would have these long -lasting effects from getting the infection

12:19was controversial and not really accepted.

12:24But partially promoted, and there was a narrative that was, you know, in retrospect, actively

12:31promoted, that if you took the vaccines and if you had this symptom of this

12:37chronic malaise and loss of stamina, I mean, you're a guy that's important to you

12:45to be physically fit. But for me, it's been important to be physically fit all

12:49my life because I've always been a farmer and a carpenter and worked with my

12:53hands and my body, and I have farm chores.

12:56I still have farm chores every day, and I couldn't do them.

13:00I couldn't walk up hills.

13:02I just had lost my stamina.

13:04I'd lost my pulmonary function, and it wasn't getting better.

13:08And nobody, you know, nobody knew anything about this, what was causing it, whether it

13:13was even real, but I was experiencing it.

13:16You know, there's a whole cluster of people who say there's no virus, and there's

13:20certainly not any long COVID, but I experienced it.

13:24And so it was promoted that if you took the jab and you had this

13:29symptom, then it would kick your immune system up.

13:32You get more of a response to the spike antigen, and that would allow you

13:39to clear the symptoms of long COVID.

13:42That turns out now we have data in just fairly recently that, in fact, the

13:46opposite is true. So this idea of long COVID, so you got long COVID from

13:52the actual infection of COVID -19 before the jab.

13:55Yeah, I got infected in late, very end of February 2020.

14:01I was in Boston at a conference on drug discovery, computational drug discovery, high -throughput

14:09stuff, very high -tech, MIT, and staying in a little firehouse that had been converted

14:16to a hotel right across the street from the biotech company that the initial Boston

14:21outbreak was associated with. And I came home sick as a dog.

14:26I thought that I had influenza B because the narrative was that was circulating at

14:34the time. And I remember laying in bed just feeling sick as hell, hard to

14:41breathe. And my wife came in.

14:43It's just been on the TV.

14:44Hey, COVID is circulating right there in Boston where you were.

14:52So that was pretty early on, and it hit me pretty hard.

14:56So that would have been the Wuhan 1 variant.

15:01And then there was a couple of genetic changes that occurred apparently in Boston around

15:07that time. So how long did this affect you, this long COVID?

15:13I was sick until I took the jab, you know, just not having stamina, just

15:20feeling. How many months was that?

15:24I had never even thought about it.

15:26Many months. And did you try anything else to mitigate those symptoms?

15:31Yeah, I did. So my whole story, you know, there's a whole bunch of what

15:37I did back then that never gets discussed, and that's okay.

15:42But I, you know, the kickoff was that I got this call from Wuhan, I

15:47think it was from Wuhan, from this guy that used to be CIA named Michael

15:53Callahan, who I'd worked with in the past.

15:56And he told me, he told me with the call that there was this virus

16:01in Wuhan, this coronavirus, that looked like it was going to be serious.

16:05And I ought to pay attention to it, and I ought to get a team

16:08wound up to try to address this.

16:10So what I'd done, because this is coming off of what I did in Zika,

16:16you know, I'm a vaccinologist at core, but developing a vaccine in the face of

16:23an outbreak historically has taken a decade.

16:27And it just isn't a practical way to address an emergent infectious disease crisis.

16:34And I had become convinced that the best way to do that was through repurposed

16:39drugs. So after I get this call, I put a team together building on the

16:46technology that I'd been working with at USAMRID during Zika for rapid identification of repurposed

16:57drugs to address, you know, new crisis.

17:01And this time we'd really taken a computational approach.

17:06So I used some tech out of UC San Francisco to recreate one of the

17:11key proteins in SARS -CoV -2 based on the sequence that got published from Wuhan

17:18in January 11th, I think, of 2020.

17:22And we started doing what's called computational docking of very, very large virtual libraries using

17:32Amazon, AWS, and high -throughput parallel processing.

17:38And came up with a list of compounds and then kind of screened those against

17:43problems, adverse events, that kind of stuff.

17:47More coffee, good. I would, thank you.

17:54And so I had this list of compounds and then I was sick as a

17:59dog. And, you know, what you get trained in if you do clinical research is

18:04docs don't experiment on themselves.

18:08It's like breaking the rules.

18:10But I'm lying there so sick that I'm just like, what the hell?

18:14What do I got to lose?

18:15I'm probably going to die.

18:16You know, at that point I'd spent a lot of time already looking into the

18:21virus and what it was causing and what people were saying it was causing.

18:24And how old were you at the time?

18:27Let's see. I'm 66 now.

18:30So I'm 61. 61, yeah.

18:32So you were in a high -risk group.

18:33Yeah, for sure. And I was obese.

18:35I don't know if you noticed, but I've dropped about 40 to 50 pounds.

18:38I don't know if I had to.

18:38Static. You'reols in. we last met.

18:40So I started taking some of those compounds, and one of them was this drug

18:48that is normally taken for stomach acid called famatidine.

18:53And I got an immediate response with that.

18:57And so I also tried isocorcetin.

19:01That didn't seem to make so much of an impact on me, but I experimented

19:06on myself. And the famatidine at higher doses now has been verified to be helpful.

19:14And it was one of the first things out of the box that people started

19:17taking, even prophylactically, before we knew about ivermectin and other things.

19:23And then that went on.

19:24I mean, there's a whole thread here we could go on for an hour about

19:27what was done with the repurposed drugs.

19:30I was working closely with the Defense Reduction Agency.

19:33And I managed to capture a few hundred million dollars and direct that towards drug

19:43repurposing, adaptive clinical trials, et cetera.

19:48And the thing that I zoomed in on through a collaboration with a doc up

19:56in Minnesota, was the combination of famatidine, another anti -inflammatory called celecoxib.

20:06And then the thing that really kicked it in high gear was the forbidden horse

20:11medicine, ivermectin. And we got, I managed to, working with DOD, got over a hundred

20:20million dollars, set up a contract.

20:23It got managed by SAIC.

20:26And we were going to go after that using a very cutting edge clinical trial

20:32design. And remember, this is the DOD.

20:40We submitted initial drug applications for using this combination of licensed drugs, well -known licensed

20:50drugs. And the FDA just dug in again and again, rejected the application.

20:58So long, what they said was, we were going to have to do cell culture

21:03tests to demonstrate the antiviral activity of ivermectin before they would allow us to proceed.

21:10And so in the end, the DOD caved and they dropped the ivermectin component and

21:16proceeded with the famatidine and celecoxib, which showed some effect.

21:20Why were they so hesitant?

21:22Or what was the resistance?

21:25Your guess is as good as mine.

21:27I really, people think that I have visibility into the FDA.

21:30And yeah, I've met with them and I have a background in regulatory affairs.

21:33But the policy decisions that were made during COVID and still to this day are

21:40perplexing. But particularly ivermectin. Oh, it was like a high sin.

21:47They deployed, what do you want to call it?

21:53Propaganda, psychological warfare, nudge, everything, just like they did after you and I had our

21:58little discussion. Um, it was, it was stunning.

22:02I mean, uh, the, like after we had our chat, uh, um, I don't know

22:07if you remember, you asked me about what is this about a mass formation psychosis?

22:13And it, I mean, the use, the term broke the internet is overused.

22:18It broke the internet. Uh, the search results on Google went nuts and, uh, well,

22:24because it perfectly described what was happening.

22:27Oh, and couldn't be, it, no, it couldn't possibly describe what was happening, even though

22:33every single person that heard it knew damn well it did, but it was forbidden.

22:38I mean, this was forbidden because - For people who didn't hear our first discussion,

22:41please explain mass formation psychosis.

22:44So since then, I've had, uh, a shit storm come at me for using the

22:49term psychosis coupled with mass formation.

22:52You can't, you know, the grief, you think you got a lot of grief from

22:55Spotify and from, uh, Spotify was actually great.

22:59I had no grief from them.

23:00It was from like Neil Young and Joni Mitchell and other artists.

23:04So you probably, then you probably don't know the whole backstory.

23:07Okay. Um, that's, we should, that's fun to dive into because it relates to the

23:12psychological warfare domain that now I've become a pseudo expert on, um, just in trying

23:18to understand what the hell I experienced and what's going on.

23:22So, so Matthias Desmet, who's a friend, um, at University of Ghent in Belgium, who

23:28by the way, has been pretty well railroaded in his university now, not allowed to

23:33teach his own book on the psychological basis of totalitarianism, where, which is where that

23:39book had not come out yet, but it was, uh, the mass formation hypothesis is

23:45what was the kind of core of that book that's now published and, and widely

23:50regarded. Uh, so, so Matthias, uh, came, Matthias is somebody who, uh, as a PhD,

23:59a full professor, had long taught, uh, 20th century, uh, uh, psychology work relating to

24:09totalitarianism and thought, uh, that goes back to Freud and beyond really all the way

24:14back to Plato and the allegory of the cave.

24:18And in particular, there was a number of, of philosophers in the 20th century associated

24:23with, uh, trying to make sense Nazi Germany and what had happened to the German

24:29people and really all over the world, uh, but particularly relating to the Germans.

24:35And Matthias had been teaching this on a regular basis.

24:39And the way he tells the story, he had an epiphany one day that, oh

24:43my God, the thing that I've been teaching, I'm living.

24:47We're experiencing it. We're experiencing this process of the formation of men.

24:53masses. And you could call it crowd psychology.

24:59So mass formation, it's kind of awkward or mass formation psychosis, which is what the

25:04term was that was used in the initial podcast that he gave out.

25:08So that's why I use that term.

25:11But, you know, it's not in the – the attack was that it's not in

25:15the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual for the American Psychiatric Association.

25:20So therefore, it doesn't exist.

25:24But, you know, all the attacks.

25:26But the core of it is that when people, to make it simple, become disassociated

25:34from society and from each other, they become extremely vulnerable to manipulation of a variety

25:41of different types. And a leader can come into that environment and offer – let's

25:50– to simplify it, offer a solution to their pain because being isolated, socially isolated

25:57is associated with pain. We as human beings have a need to connect with others.

26:01It's a fundamental aspect of being human.

26:05It's what you do. I mean, you connect.

26:07That's the essence of the Joe Rogan experience, I think.

26:11So we need to connect with others.

26:13And in certain situations where people are threatened, and in particular in the modern era

26:21where we have all of these things that drive us into isolation, most notably our

26:27electronic tools, we become disassociated from our community.

26:33And when that happens, we have a strong need to become associated with community.

26:38And a leader can come into that environment and basically say, I have the solution

26:44to your pain, your psychological pain.

26:47And what will happen is a strange phenomena where people will – rather than building

26:55social networks, let's say horizontally to those around them, they'll attach to this strong leader.

27:02And they'll get that – they'll get fulfillment for that need to belong by this

27:08attachment to that leader and following the edicts of that leader.

27:13And this leads to this phenomena that gives rise – you know, enables totalitarianism, but

27:21gives rise to this whole cluster of things that Mestius described.

27:27That, you know, he uses the term mass formation.

27:32In a way, that's kind of an odd artifact of translation, I guess, from the

27:37Dutch. It's – an easier way to think of it is a crowd formation.

27:43And in his examination of the history of what happened in Nazi Germany where things

27:56– people really went crazy.

27:58I mean, mothers were turning their children in.

28:01You know, children are being executed on – you know, consequent to mother's testimony, which

28:07is really strange when you think about it just, you know, in a fundamental way.

28:13You know, we had all of this dear leader kind of stuff.

28:20The linkage of the self and the soul to this central figure and deriving a

28:31sense of identity and belonging from that that went on.

28:35And, you know, there's still people from that generation in Germany that are still caught

28:45up in a lot of that.

28:47That's why the German laws.

28:50And so that's the short version.

28:53When we spoke before, I gave a much more technical, precise definition of Matthias' core

29:01thesis. But this – once this happens, then people become very, very easily manipulated through

29:12propaganda and a variety of techniques that now I have a better comprehension of.

29:18I mean, then I was still just trying to make sense, just like all of

29:21us, what the heck was going on.

29:23What's with this crazy? But now it's kind of coalesced into an understanding of the

29:33fact that modern psychology has been weaponized.

29:38It's been intentionally weaponized in the context of military activities in the domain that, you

29:46know, one way to express it, the term is used, kind of term of art

29:51in military jargon is fifth generation warfare, or you could call it psychological warfare.

29:56And what distinguishes the present from, say, Sun Tzu and, you know, ancient propaganda has

30:05always been part of warfare in humans.

30:08But we haven't had the digital world.

30:12We haven't had modern psychology.

30:15We haven't had nudge technology.

30:17We haven't had all these tools that allow the control of information, thought, perception, feelings,

30:28emotions that have become commonplace.

30:32And that, you know, is – and has, you know, this suite of technology and

30:39capabilities that we saw deployed in all of us were built in a kind of

30:45a structured way largely by UK and US leadership in the intelligence community as a

30:53weapon of war to counter these successful insurgencies that we keep losing wars over.

31:01You know, Vietnam being a notable example all the way through Afghanistan.

31:05And – I mean, unlike a couple of veterans that durchaus management has always had

31:07probably been our So that's why it was built but then that tech got deployed

31:15by governments against their own citizens and this was really launched in large part in

31:25the United States by a presidential directive from Barack Obama.

31:29I'm not making this up.

31:31You can look it up.

31:32And by the way, the presidential directive is still in place that established the nudge

31:38technology units of the United States.

31:40They were already operating in the U .K.

31:42and in the U .K.

31:43it's quite advanced. When you look at the U .K.

31:45politics right now and what's going on there with all the censorship and everything, you

31:49know, this is no joke.

31:52We're barreling right to that end point, same as Canada has.

31:56You know, we're just a little bit behind.

31:59And there they – you know, we have the benefit of the First Amendment in

32:04a constitution and, you know, often on courts.

32:08But there they don't have those obstacles and the government believes in the U .K.

32:16that once they have won an election, it's perfectly acceptable to deploy this modern psychology

32:22and information control technology on their own population.

32:26And I argue that once that Rubicon is crossed, the idea of democracy, because the

32:33tech is so powerful, becomes completely perverted.

32:37And we got a good hard taste of that during COVID.

32:41What you and I experienced, what you experienced with ivermectin, what you experienced with, you

32:49know, just talking about your own experiences.

32:51And the blowback that happened after we did that little hit is a super powerful,

33:03clear case study in understanding this intersection of modern psychology, warfare technology, and the digital

33:17world and algorithmic control of information, the creation of digital avatars for all of us,

33:28the application now in the present of artificial intelligence to custom craft messaging that gets

33:37fed into our digital domains on a regular basis in order to, you know, sell

33:44us whatever, whatever, but also to shape how we think and to control what information

33:54we get access to all the time.

33:57Just to give an example, my wife, who does a lot of our research for

34:01our Substack, was talking to me the other day.

34:03She just gave me a couple examples where stories that were in corporate media in

34:12the United States that weren't listing certain key names or whatever.

34:17She said, I just go to the Hindustu Times.

34:20Hindustu Times is a great source for all the stuff that we're not allowed to

34:24see here in the United States.

34:25You're now in an environment, an information environment where you cannot rely on – but

34:35we all know that. You can't rely on corporate media, but the rules, the boundaries

34:41that are being set up about information are profound and they're completely distorting our ability

34:47to process what's happening around us.

34:51Can I give you the example of what actually happened?

34:53You said in our example with the blowback in Spotify.

34:59This is documented by a report out from the House about COVID and what happened.

35:07And that report only carries just through to the early part of the vaccines and

35:13then it stops. For some reason, they didn't really want to go down the road

35:17to the vaccines. They did talk a lot about the events around the, let's say,

35:25lab leak hypothesis, which is allowed.

35:28You're allowed in D .C.

35:29now to talk about that.

35:30Yeah. You're still – well – It was about four years later you were allowed.

35:34Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was documented was that the trail of events was that

35:45we had our discussion. That triggered – and this is going to sound bizarre, but

35:52this is what's documented. That triggered Coca -Cola Corporation to complain to the Global Alliance

36:00for Responsible Media, which is created by the World Economic Forum.

36:04It is one of these global aggregators that controls advertising.

36:08The Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which, by the way, had a dust -up with

36:13Elon Musk and lost, and they closed it down as a nonprofit.

36:18It still exists in other ways, but as a structure that could be sued by

36:24X, it disappeared when he stood up against it.

36:29But Global Alliance for Responsible Media had a socket with Google AdSense, by the way.

36:36So they control the advertising ecosystem, which kind of matters to Spotify.

36:42So Coca -Cola complains to Garm saying, this guy Rogan, you got to shut him

36:48down. OK? You got to put pressure on Spotify.

36:52So Spotify gets the message from Garm that we're going to – we're threatening to

36:58pull your advertising. OK? Now, what happens between that and your experience, I don't know.

37:05You know, it's not transparent to me what you experienced.

37:08Yeah. We all remember the Laurel Canyon crowd saying they were going to pull their

37:14catalogs, which they didn't actually own, right?

37:16That was another thing. And then they went after you with this – That's –

37:22That's – mashup of inward historic events.

37:28You know, there was clearly a concerted effort to take out Joe Rogan, much more

37:33than to take out Robert Malone.

37:35And so then the question comes, why the heck would Coca -Cola be the socket

37:43with the Global Alliance for Responsibility?

37:46One of the biggest advertisers in the world, right?

37:47Why would Coca -Cola give a hooey about what Joe Rogan said to Robert Malone

37:53on, you know, New Year's Eve?

37:58Coca -Cola is really tight with the CDC.

38:02Coca -Cola has funded buildings at the CDC.

38:05Coca -Cola funds the CDC Foundation, Foundation for the CDC, as does Bill and Melinda

38:12Gates, has done all the major vaccine manufacturers, et cetera, et cetera.

38:15The appearance is, I can't verify this, that CDC acted through its ally, Coca -Cola.

38:24Why are they allies? What's Coca -Cola got to do with CDC?

38:28The angle there is that Coca -Cola wanted the CDC to get WHO to not

38:36implement restrictions in messaging about sugar use.

38:42Okay. They didn't want those messages.

38:45Remember, this is at the heart of the inverted food triangle now.

38:49The old food triangle was the product of sugar lobby.

38:53I mean, the sugar lobby is incredibly powerful because this stuff is addictive.

38:56I mean, it's like having the cocaine lobby, right?

39:01Well, and, you know, that's an interesting analogy because, of course, the history of Coca

39:06-Cola. But, so sugar is addictive.

39:12Coca -Cola wanted the CDC to influence public health policy to avoid global positions on

39:24the risks associated with sugar intake because it would potentially hurt their market share.

39:29They're a major globalized company.

39:31So that little ecosystem that I just described illustrates illustrates what we're dealing with here

39:37and the many ways that all of this kind of influence and messaging and signaling

39:47happens in this kind of integrated, horizontally and vertically ecosystem that we live in right

39:53now. And one of the things that came out of that, you'll recall, was that

39:57you were asked, as I recall, you gave this, you know, I've had a hostage

40:03video. I think that was a close to a hostage video from you back in

40:06the day when you were saying, this is what I'm going to do.

40:10It was like out on your porch or something.

40:12I remember I was sitting around a campfire in Maui quite literally when somebody said,

40:17oh, did you just see this from Rogan?

40:19And a matter of fact, I was sitting around Gavin DeBecker's campfire at that time,

40:24somebody that you know. And so the compromise was that there would be a little

40:31trailer put at the bottom of that episode.

40:34And by the way, you probably know that episode for a long time became very

40:38hard to find. It was basically blacklisted from the search engines, et cetera, et cetera.

40:44But it carries, and I think it still does, that little banner that says, you

40:48know, you should go to the CDC if you want the true, true about COVID.

40:52And you can still find that those kinds of banners popping up all the time

40:57on YouTube. If you talk about vaccines or COVID vaccines, that will get, if you

41:03pass the filters, if YouTube will allow that to still be up, because you didn't

41:08say something, whatever it is, then you'll get the little banner.

41:13Okay, that banner is pushed out by the nudge units at the CDC.

41:18Okay, that is nudge technology.

41:21It is all around us all the time.

41:24And it's basically still public policy consequent to the old Obama presidential directive that still

41:33hasn't been rescinded. You know, I love President Trump.

41:36I think he's doing amazing things.

41:38I think he's amazingly brave.

41:40I just mentioned our friend Gavin DeBecker referred to Trump the other day when I

41:45saw Gavin in Maui as a once -in -500 -year leader.

41:50And that's not nothing coming from Gavin.

41:54And so I'm a big supporter, but the president has still left in place this

42:01mechanism that exists that directs the federal government to use nudge technology and related what

42:10I assert is psychological warfare technology on the American populace.

42:15Right. This is from back in, what was it, 2015 or something like that?

42:21Yeah, it's quite early. Yeah.

42:23And then you had his, you had Obama's subsequent, like the notorious speech at Hoover,

42:28at Stanford, where he talks about in order to preserve democracy, we're going to have,

42:34basically he says we're going to have to have censorship in order to preserve democracy

42:38or whatever democracy is. For people that don't know what we're talking about, we're relating

42:43to the Smith -Munt Act?

42:44The Smith -Munt, everybody focuses on Smith -Munt.

42:48Okay. But as I examined Smith -Munt, and we did an essay on this in

42:52the Substack, you know, like three years ago, because that was the kind of the

42:57narrative that was coming out in, let's say, our side of alternative media.

43:02Right. And in my examination, Smith -Munt's impact is a lot more limited.

43:08It has to do with Voice of America and some other things.

43:11The broad impact wasn't quite, in my opinion, what was believed to be of enabling

43:17propaganda domestically. More specifically, there is a presidential directive that nudge technology, that established a

43:28nudge office, that nudge technology shall be used.

43:32What do they call it?

43:32They don't call it a nudge office, right?

43:34They, I don't know, it's got, they've...

43:36They've gone through various iterations, and I'm sorry I don't have the latest version, and

43:40it's kind of become decentralized.

43:42It was called the Social and Behavioral Science Team.

43:45Wikipedia says that that was stopped in 2017 but continued under the Trump administration under

43:51– sorry, the General Services Administration's Office of Evaluation Sciences.

43:57There we go. Yeah. Boy.

43:59Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of become – it's been – like I said, it's

44:02been pushed out into a lot of the agencies.

44:05They don't use that lexicon because then it's easy to find them.

44:10They use – there's other euphemisms they use to describe those kinds of activities, but

44:16it's become normalized. The weaponization of propaganda has become normalized.

44:21There's the wording from – Overall, behavioral interventions or nudges like the ones implemented by

44:27OES have been found to be effective.

44:29In a recent psychological science article, researchers identified several policy areas of interest, example, health

44:35care. Here we go. 2015 is when it was implemented.

44:37So 2015. Executive order. President Obama signs an executive order requiring federal agencies to incorporate

44:43behavioral insights into their evaluation efforts.

44:47That's a nice way of saying use of propaganda on the American people.

44:50Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so this has kind of become – thank you so much

44:55for pulling that up. That's super helpful.

44:57So this is – like I said, if I can illustrate, I was on a

45:05Great Britain News broadcast about four years ago at the time when they would –

45:12there was a window of time where they would have me on, but it was

45:15sketchy. And GB News was the only one that would do it.

45:18And – but the rules were then that if you were going to have somebody

45:24that was speaking against the government narrative, then you had to have somebody representing the

45:28government's interests in the same broadcast.

45:31So that's implemented by – basically the UK has an active censorship organization that controls

45:39news media. And so I'm on with this guy, Great Britain News, pinstripe, bow tie,

45:46you know, it just reeks.

45:47And I'm talking about psychological warfare and the 77th Brigade, which is part of the

45:55British Army, which is their psychological warfare unit.

45:59It's very open that that's the case, as is the existence of a civilian branch

46:08that they set up and paid people to do social media in opposition of counter

46:14-narratives that the government didn't approve of.

46:18I mean now they just – under Starmer, they just censor you and send you

46:22to jail. They just cut out the middleman.

46:26But back then they were still kind of buying civilians.

46:30And so I'm talking about this.

46:33And that's – the guy says, yeah, but here in the UK, our belief is

46:40that if the government wins the election, they have the right to govern.

46:43And that right to govern includes our ability to use this type of technology and

46:50we believe that it's justified to do so.

46:52And that – when that conversation happened, frankly, I hadn't – we hadn't launched the

46:57book yet, Cywar, which is our most recent publication.

47:00And it just kind of all coalesced in my mind that, oh my god, what

47:06– all these things, Matthias' teaching about mass formation, what I saw, what I experienced

47:13with you, what I experienced with the concerted attacks of the media.

47:17And then subsequently, it's been validated by this congressional report that talks about, for instance,

47:24the Jura Ticket system. Jura Tickets are what – it's a system that all the

47:28software companies use to track glitches and complaints and stuff like that.

47:35Well, the government had their own Jura Ticket system set up to log information about

47:42activities of persons that they wanted to have censored and suppressed.

47:48And they would build these Jura Tickets with information.

47:51And so one of the things that's out in the congressional report was that I

47:54actually had a Jura Ticket.

47:55I was surprised that this is the case or not surprised in retrospect.

47:59And my personal sins were that I was listed as an anti -vaxxer and a

48:06conservative. Even though you're a vaccinologist and a conservative.

48:10That's interesting. And a conservative.

48:11You can't be a conservative.

48:12Exactly right. I mean the stuff that's coming out.

48:15That's wild. It's fascinating to query things like Grok, even Grok, about certain subjects.

48:26And you will find where they have algorithmically built firewalls.

48:33And you can approach them and detect them because it will act dumb.

48:41You know, it will lock up seemingly.

48:44It won't give you that answer.

48:46Or it will talk around the issue, et cetera, et cetera.

48:50You can identify these things that have been built in algorithmically.

48:54And, of course, then we had all of the disclosures, the Zuckerberg, oh, I'm so

49:00sorry, apology tour that happened, remember, when basically got outed by Congress and the rest

49:07of the tech bros. And, of course, the thing that catalyzed all of that was

49:11that Elon decided to pony up a good chunk of change and buy Twitter.

49:18Which I think is one of the most impactful decisions that any American citizen has

49:23ever made. Amazing. If he didn't do that, I think we would be really screwed.

49:29How can you debate that?

49:30How can you debate it when you look at the Twitter files and you find

49:33out how much the government was involved in censoring accurate information from legitimate professors, esteemed

49:40researchers, anybody who didn't go along with the official narrative?

49:43It's all coming out now in spades.

49:47Yeah. And we're dealing now.

49:49The lovely thing about all of this.

49:51I mean, let's try to—it is morning in America, in my opinion.

49:57I mean, a lot of people get very dark, and there's a darkness to the

50:01times. But there's—you know, not to push the metaphor too far, but there is new

50:10light coming in. And the fact that we can now see this and we recognize

50:15that—you and I are of a similar generation.

50:18I mean, one of my earliest memories was the assassination of the president.

50:23And all of the propaganda around that, the propaganda around the Vietnam War, ever since,

50:29we've just been swimming in information control that's gotten increasingly sophisticated.

50:35And fortunately, as Americans, we also kind of have become more and more immune to

50:43marketing and propaganda over time because we've been living with it, trying to discern what

50:49is real and what is, you know, false.

50:51Again, this is—it's a core part of what you do for a living, I think,

50:56is just try to, you know, have conversations to be able to get to the

51:00bottom of the bullshit. But that—we've been swimming in it, and now we can see

51:08it. We can see the structures that, you know, the power of artificial intelligence and

51:17influence mapping and all the things that are going on in the internet right now

51:20that are the cutting -edge technology.

51:23They're scary because they can be weaponized against us, but they're also super cool because

51:30we can now see those relationships.

51:33If you want an example of that, look at the threads that are coming out

51:37on X illuminating the networks of affiliation associated with this latest Epstein file release.

51:45It's just mind -blowing. Mind -blowing, yeah.

51:49And it is just like, you know, we can sit here and bitch and whine

51:54saying, oh, they didn't release that, blah, blah, blah.

51:56This is redacted. All that's true.

51:59But still, the impact of that information, we're still getting to the bottom of it.

52:08It's completely changed most people's narrative of what happened.

52:12Like, we had this sort of vague understanding, you know, but when you see in

52:17the email, like, clear evidence that they're talking about children.

52:23In pretty obscene ways. Horrifying ways.

52:26So that was the thing that, like, even when I talked to Mike Benz about

52:29that, he was sort of incredulous about that.

52:31It's like, I don't think they would use children.

52:34It just doesn't make any sense if they got caught.

52:36But it just seems like we were— Yeah, if Mike Benz was incredulous, that's pretty

52:42big. Well, I just don't think we really knew until we saw those files come

52:47out. Yeah. And then you go, oh, well, there's no denying it now.

52:51My position on it has completely shifted.

52:53I thought there's probably some really sick people that have an appetite for that, but

52:59I hadn't seen any real evidence for it until these files.

53:01And now I'm like, oh, this is demonic.

53:03This is clearly demonic. Okay, so thank you for saying that.

53:10I'm somebody who was raised a Christian and went to Bible school and that kind

53:16of stuff as a kid.

53:16And youth groups and then growing up in Central Coast of California, let's say, veered

53:25in different ways. But the experiences that we've encountered over the last half a dozen

53:34years, it's hard to come up with a language to express what we're observing in

53:42the world other than the language of theology.

53:46Well, demonic by action. So whether or not demons exist, if they did exist, that

53:52is how they would behave.

53:53They would prey on children and torture children.

53:56And there was the one where there was a suggestion where a child was praying

54:01to Jesus that like there was a joke that someone should dress up like Jesus.

54:07Do you see that one, Jim?

54:08No, I'm not watching this stuff.

54:11I don't even want to.

54:12I don't even want to.

54:13People send it to me and I go, okay.

54:15Because I'm, for the most part, off social media.

54:18But every now and then someone will send me something that I have to look

54:20at. I'm like, oh, my God.

54:22Yeah. And these are emails back and forth.

54:26There's one of them where Epstein says, I enjoyed the torture video.

54:31There's these references to pizza, a lot of references to pizza that are 100 %

54:38some kind of a code.

54:39Yeah. And then it brings you back to Pizzagate.

54:42Yeah. Which was widely dismissed.

54:45Yeah. Everybody's like, oh, this is a bunch of kooks.

54:48Here it is. She said she felt God's presence next to her when she was

54:53in bed. She knows that Jesus watches over her and he helped save her life.

55:00And then he writes, whoops.

55:02And then in response, Jeffrey Epstein says, you should dress up as him when you

55:08see her. It is dark.

55:14You should dress up like Jesus when you see her.

55:17What the fuck? And, well, look at the line.

55:22You're talking about a little kid that's blinded Jesus?

55:24Look at the line above it.

55:26Of course. How am I supposed to interpret I'm coming trick?

55:30The O -H Jesus, I'm coming trick.

55:37It's just the whole thing.

55:40But so we see this darkness.

55:43It involves leaders in academe, in science, in industry, in politics.

55:53And it just, you know, I remember a point in this arc of the last

56:00six years where a film crew came onto my farm.

56:04I don't think this is the first time.

56:04I was waiting for you.

56:04I was just waiting for you when I was in a respirer.

56:05I was sitting outside, and I was waiting for you to go .還inate was, I,

56:05but I got that sound.

56:05I noticed this is all coming.

56:05to shoot some segments and they were talking this – and frankly, I thought it

56:10was crazy talk. I kind of smiled and tried to be civil and nice, not

56:19contradict them, about the new world order.

56:27And then along comes – then my wife one day says, hey, you ought to

56:34look at this book from Klaus Schwab.

56:36It's called the new world order.

56:39Like, what? I mean he was just saying it out loud.

56:44Yeah. I mean the World Economic Forum had those ads where they were saying you

56:49will own nothing and you will be happy.

56:51Yeah. And it goes back to the current king of England was the guy that

56:56kind of launched that. He was the first one to be really talking about that

57:00you can – if you – you can use your favorite AI and track it

57:04down yourself. I prefer not to use Google these days to try to find stuff.

57:09But it – we see vertical after vertical after vertical after vertical where information has

57:18been crafted and manipulated. And the same tools of delegitimization, of promotion of these messages

57:34that you are a conspiracy theorist or that you are controlled opposition is another favorite

57:42one. A lot of this was pioneered in the 60s by the FBI against the

57:46various protest movements and you can go back and track that.

57:49The narrative of being a collaborator surreptitiously is called bad jacketing.

58:02And it has its own – it has its own language and protocols for how

58:08to do this to people, to divide movements.

58:12We're in this – I mean in a way it's kind of a glorious moment

58:17where we're having a huge amount of social pressures coming together in this moment in

58:29time that you and I happen to live in.

58:30How fantastic is that to be at a point in time where there is so

58:36much change. There's so much social interaction and pressure and competition between these different philosophies

58:44and we're swimming in it.

58:48As somebody writes on a daily basis these essays on Substack because that's how I

58:52make my living now because I can't do what I used to do.

58:57It's – you're a kid in a candy shop.

59:00There's so much corruption. There's so much falsehood being promoted.

59:06There's so much of this manipulation of reality.

59:13And so if you're in the business of trying to help people to make sense

59:18out of that, which is kind of what I do now for a living, it's

59:22– I wake up every morning.

59:24People – I get the feedback.

59:25How do you come up with all these ideas?

59:27I'm like, how do you not?

59:29All you got to do is keep your eyes open.

59:31Yeah. It's not hard to search anymore.

59:33So you talked about ivermectin.

59:35I mean the ivermectin story is still ongoing.

59:39There was an announcement the other day from HHS that they are launching new initiatives

59:45to investigate the use of ivermectin in cancer.

59:48And there was immediate blowback along the lines of oncologists are outraged.

59:55You know, the narrative is Bobby – you know, not saying this explicitly but basically

1:00:00Bobby Kennedy is at it once again promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories.

1:00:05And it's going to – you know, we're all going to die because scientists are

1:00:10going to investigate the use of ivermectin and other drugs for cancer.

1:00:15So this is the core question.

1:00:17And this is one of the things that puzzled me to no end.

1:00:20And I understood that they were upset that I had gotten better without the use

1:00:27of the vaccine, that I was a popular person, that I was a famous person,

1:00:32and I made a video about a canceled show.

1:00:35Dave Chappelle and I were supposed to do a show, and I made that video

1:00:40to let everyone know that I couldn't do the show because I had COVID.

1:00:42I had no idea it was going to be even controversial.

1:00:47But I listed a bunch of things that I took.

1:00:50And the shit hit the fan.

1:00:51I talked about IV vitamins.

1:00:53Yeah. I talked about monoclonal antibodies.

1:00:56I talked about – Which were allowed.

1:00:58Prednisone. Yeah, all these things that I talked about.

1:01:01Z -Pak. I talked about all these different things that I took.

1:01:04There was no mention of any of those things.

1:01:06There was only ivermectin. And that's what really puzzled me.

1:01:10I was like, this is fascinating because I listed a bunch of different things.

1:01:15But there was no demonization of monoclonal antibodies, but they did make them much harder

1:01:20to get and eventually pulled them.

1:01:22I have a friend, and his friend was in the hospital, and they wouldn't administer

1:01:29monoclonal antibodies once he got into the hospital.

1:01:32They wouldn't allow him to have them.

1:01:34What went on in the hospital is a whole other thing.

1:01:36But that's crazy. But so the why.

1:01:40The why that one medication.

1:01:43The only two threads that I can pull on at all is that ivermectin is

1:01:50a miracle drug. I mean Nobel Prize, right?

1:01:52Right. We don't understand completely how it works.

1:01:56In this case, it doesn't seem to be working as an antiviral.

1:01:59It seems to be working as an immune stimulant, pro -inflammatory or pro -immune response

1:02:06in some way that's subtle because it has this broad spectrum of activity against things

1:02:12that have an immune response component and controlling.

1:02:16But it's off -patent. Right.

1:02:18They don't understand it. It's off patent.

1:02:20patent, and the response is as if it represents a significant threat to some business

1:02:29interests. It's hard to discern that.

1:02:31And you mentioned Z -Pak.

1:02:33So that's another fascinating one.

1:02:36And to say that it was only ivermectin, ivermectin was the most prominent, but they

1:02:40were actually effective in shutting down the Z -Pak, the use of hydroxychloroquine.

1:02:48And hydroxychloroquine has a fascinating story.

1:02:51When you mentioned Z -Pak, you're talking about Zev Zelenko.

1:02:54And Zev was the one that wrote the letter to the president saying, hey, here's

1:03:00this data and this information about this drug that is off patent.

1:03:06We have a huge portfolio of experience in using it, millions and millions of doses.

1:03:14It's safe in pregnancy. What's not to like here?

1:03:19And the story of that is a fascinating microcosm because it goes back to Ralph

1:03:24Baric. Ralph Baric had published that back years ago when he's kind of the guru

1:03:32of coronaviruses. And a good case can be made that he had his fingers all

1:03:37over the engineering of this particular virus.

1:03:41So he had published that this drug was effective against coronaviruses.

1:03:49And Zev Zelenko, who's passed away now, got engaged in trying to find some way

1:03:57to help his patients in New York with recovering from COVID and treating COVID.

1:04:06And he went back, did a deep dive into Baric's work, pulled out this drug,

1:04:12hydroxychloroquine that had been recommended, wrote to the president about it.

1:04:16He got clinical experience with it.

1:04:19And, you know, caveat, Mickey Willis is doing a bio on Zev now, and I'm

1:04:30involved in that. So conflict of interest.

1:04:32But he was the one that pulled it out, sent the letter to the president

1:04:39president with his clinical experience.

1:04:42President tasked Peter Navarro with sourcing the drug for the – and Peter, an economist,

1:04:50went to town. I remember the company I was working with, Alchem at the time,

1:04:53getting a call from Peter.

1:04:55Can you come up with some way to make more of this drug here domestically?

1:04:58We want to source it so we have enough doses for everybody.

1:05:01And then I think it was Lancet published this paper that had totally made up

1:05:07data that trashed the drug, said that it's toxic, doesn't work, blah, blah, blah, blah,

1:05:14blah. It was all fake, okay?

1:05:17They pulled the paper when it became revealed that it was based on non -existent

1:05:20data, that it was more propaganda published in one of the top medical journals in

1:05:25the United States. But by that time, it was completely crushed.

1:05:28So they didn't have to go after Z -Stack.

1:05:31They'd already killed Z -Stack.

1:05:34Ivermectin, though, that was a new threat.

1:05:36And one of the reasons why it was a threat was there was a meta

1:05:41-analysis that had been done at the Cochrane.

1:05:43So the Cochrane Institute in the UK is like, you know, the holy grail for

1:05:50analysis of drugs and biologics and this process of meta -analysis.

1:05:58They kind of wrote the rules for how to do it.

1:06:01And they had done an analysis that showed that ivermectin was quite effective.

1:06:07And then something happened. And there was some influence exerted.

1:06:15And suddenly, that meta -analysis got quenched.

1:06:20It got squashed. There were two investigators that were involved in building that.

1:06:29One kind of went underground and got a big grant and carried on as an

1:06:34academic. The other one got so pissed off that she created this organization called the

1:06:39World Council for Health. That's Tess Lurie.

1:06:42And she really objected to what happened.

1:06:46But ivermectin, you know, there was a signal there.

1:06:49There was a clear signal there.

1:06:51There was data supporting that signal.

1:06:53And then something happened to cause that meta -analysis to be restructured.

1:07:00And certain studies that were showing how effective it was to be thrown out.

1:07:04And then the suppression of the data coming out of India, you remember that?

1:07:09Uttar Pradesh. And I guess it had kind of, it's like the cat was out

1:07:17of the bag. And they had trouble putting it back in.

1:07:22So they just, my sense is, they turned up the amplitude on the propaganda and

1:07:29the censorship in order to try to overcome this.

1:07:32And I'm pretty sure, remember who was it that held the original patent?

1:07:38Merck. Now, I was involved as an observer on behalf of DITRA to the active

1:07:46trials that were going on under the Foundation for NIH, which is sponsored in a

1:07:51significant way by Merck, and which is now headed up by the former head of

1:07:55Merck Vaccines, Julie Gerberding. Bobby can't get her out.

1:07:59It's the rules. And they were running these clinical trials, including the clinical trial that

1:08:05essentially by tweaking the dosing, et cetera, made it so that they came up with

1:08:11a result suggesting that ivermectin is not effective.

1:08:15There was a whole lot of manipulation in the why part.

1:08:20Still, the best explanation I've heard is that it had a lot to do with

1:08:25the risk that if there was an effective countermeasure, then the utilization.

1:08:34Of the PrEP Act and the emergency countermeasures to process to enable fast tracking of

1:08:47these vaccines using this new technology would no longer be valid because those are the

1:08:55rules is if there's an existing countermeasure, then you can't implement those clauses.

1:09:02So it was all about emergency use authorization.

1:09:05I don't know that that's the case.

1:09:08It is. The only thing that makes sense when you see how much profit they

1:09:10made. Which was enormous. Enormous.

1:09:13So it was effective. And all that propaganda, regardless of how much exposed them and

1:09:18exposed their methods, they made hundreds of billions of dollars.

1:09:24Well, and that's the ugliest part of all of this.

1:09:28I mean, people, the big, big picture when I talk to people that are still

1:09:34kind of on the fence trying to make sense out of it.

1:09:38You know, there's still a lot of those folks out there.

1:09:40The thing that kind of gets into their brain is the greatest upward transfer of

1:09:48wealth in modern history occurred during COVID.

1:09:52Yeah. It wasn't just the vaccines.

1:09:55It was the whole enterprise.

1:09:56With the lockdowns. Lockdowns. All the – what was done to small businesses.

1:10:03What was done to the economy.

1:10:06The stimulus packages. They're still digging out of all of that fraud.

1:10:10It – you know, in retrospect, for average folks that are just trying to put

1:10:22food on the table and pay their rent, to look at, in retrospect, what was,

1:10:28you know, quite literally done to them.

1:10:31The middle class was hollowed out in – like on hyperspeed.

1:10:36And this – so, yeah, I'm still pissed off about this.

1:10:41Well, you should be. The thing is not enough people are and so many people

1:10:46let it go. And part of the reason why not enough people are pissed off

1:10:50about it is because they took the vaccine and they want to justify their decision.

1:10:56And you will talk to a lot of people that make this blanket claim, the

1:11:01vaccine saved millions of lives.

1:11:03And they'll just say that.

1:11:04Yeah, because that's the propaganda along with safe and effective.

1:11:08That was a promoted narrative.

1:11:09And that was – by the way, the rationale given by the Nobel Prize Committee

1:11:14to award to Carrico and Weissman was that these products, which they had – the

1:11:20thesis is they had been playing the central role.

1:11:23I disagree. I think Peter Colas is the one that should have got it.

1:11:25If you're going to give it for – if you're going to give it for

1:11:27these vaccines, it was Peter Colas and his team at UBC that really was the

1:11:32enabling tech. But be that as it may, the decision is made and the committee

1:11:37said basically millions of lives have been saved and by giving this Nobel at this

1:11:45time, we are – we hope that it will promote more people to accept this

1:11:50product. That was explicitly the logic given at the time.

1:11:55And that reflects what was really a thrust vector.

1:11:58Joe, I've – you know, it's – what a bizarre world since we met.

1:12:04And so I've been sucked into – to call it the center -right of Europe

1:12:11is a little bit of a misnomer because they're all socialists as far as I'm

1:12:14concerned, Giorgio Maloney and everybody else.

1:12:16But, you know, compared to the far left, they're labeled as neo -Nazis.

1:12:21But I've been traveling to Europe, interacting with these people.

1:12:25You think it was bad for us, the European Union, the UK and the Canada

1:12:31were an order of magnitude worse.

1:12:34That we should be so grateful that we live in this country at this time

1:12:41and that we still have something like a functioning constitution with the First and Second

1:12:46Amendment. Look at the poor suckers in Australia and New Zealand.

1:12:51You know, remind yourself it could be a heck of a lot worse here and

1:12:57it has been a heck of a lot worse in Europe.

1:13:00I've got buddies in Romania in the leading alternative party, you know, calling it center

1:13:08-right, let's say. But that, you know, recently – I think it was the vice

1:13:14president that came out and said specifically that that last election was stolen.

1:13:18It was in Romania. Georgescu, they tried to put in jail and the logic was

1:13:24that – I think it was TikTok supporting his campaign had been sponsored by the

1:13:29Russians. It was the same game that they played against Trump of Russian collusion.

1:13:35They played that same book in Romania successfully.

1:13:40But in the European Union environment under the European Council, they don't – you know,

1:13:46they ain't got a constitution and they can just step right in and throw you

1:13:53in jail, inactivate your candidacy, do whatever if you represent a populist threat to the

1:13:59existing structure. We talk about the deep state, but it's – it doesn't – you

1:14:06know, yeah, it's a problem here.

1:14:07But – and Mike Benz, I defer to as a notable expert in that space.

1:14:14But it's a lot worse in Europe and Australia and Canada and the UK and

1:14:21I think, you know, we're in a perilous time here in the United States where,

1:14:30you know, we have the midterm coming up.

1:14:33But – but people like Bobby are making progress and these dissident physicians that have

1:14:41risked so many things and I'm just one.

1:14:45You know, people – I hear people saying, oh, Robert, Robert, they've been – mean

1:14:49to you. I'm like, come on, guys.

1:14:51You think they've been mean to me.

1:14:54Then look at what they did to Bobby.

1:14:56And then look, I don't have a nick out of my ear.

1:15:02Look at what they did to Trump.

1:15:04What they did to me is just, I'm nobody compared to that.

1:15:09And they're willing to deploy that kind of capability against me.

1:15:13Think about what's really going on at the higher levels where the big games are

1:15:18being played. And at least we can see it now.

1:15:24At least we have, for those of us that have our eyes open, we have

1:15:29some ability to be aware.

1:15:31But what I've spent the last two years mostly trying to convince people about, I

1:15:37hardly ever talk about RNA.

1:15:39I said, oh, Joe, I got to give a caveat.

1:15:44Forgive me. The opinions I'm expressing here are my own and not those of the

1:15:50U .S. government, the CDC, or the ACIP.

1:15:53There, I said it. But we're in a moment where we're seeing the levers, the

1:16:03gears of how all this works.

1:16:06Give you an example. Tomorrow, Friday, February 13th, what could possibly go wrong?

1:16:15Hopefully my plane flight out of here works okay.

1:16:18And they don't have a drone attack or something, right?

1:16:22So tomorrow there's a lawsuit filed on behalf of the American Academy of Pediatrics that

1:16:30seeks to shut down the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and the changes that Bobby's

1:16:38implemented there and force all of that to go back to the way things were

1:16:44when it was functionally controlled by the professional societies and particularly the American Academy of

1:16:49Pediatrics. They, they, they, they, we talk about this, you know, propaganda and weaponization and,

1:16:58and lawfare and those things.

1:17:00And we talk about it as if it only happened in the last administration.

1:17:05It's, it's still ongoing all the time.

1:17:09And it is going to go big time if, if the House turns, which I

1:17:15think it probably well. I mean, there's a good chance that they've already drawn up

1:17:21articles of impeachment against Secretary Kennedy.

1:17:23They're talking about articles of impeachment against President Trump.

1:17:25We're about to go into another two years of stagnation and, and, you know, functional,

1:17:33what do we call it?

1:17:35We can't call it civil war.

1:17:37Um, uh, you know, um, war by other means, uh, is, is where we're heading

1:17:44right now. But at this moment, uh, I'm seeing major movement, you know, Kennedy is

1:17:53doing great stuff. The president is doing great stuff.

1:17:56We're seeing a transformation in America's global reach, uh, totally restructuring global politics and on

1:18:05the health side that make America healthy again, movement.

1:18:08You know, there's, there's some pushback against that and the heck of a lot of

1:18:12propaganda being deployed against it.

1:18:13Well, it's this old quote that seems sort of abstract for most people, most of

1:18:19the time, but rings kind of true, but you're finding it true more and more

1:18:23money is the root of all evil.

1:18:27Uh, profound, a simple, but profound.

1:18:30Yeah. I mean, this is the, the COVID thing with ivermectin and alternative medications, off

1:18:37-label medications. Why? Money. I think it also has to do with control.

1:18:43Right. I think there's - Which means more money.

1:18:45Fair enough. More access to money.

1:18:46Yeah. It's, it's, it's money and power.

1:18:48Right. In my mind. But power, they don't want power without money.

1:18:52They want, they want to benefit from that power.

1:18:55I, I believe for the likes of Larry Fink and Bill Gates, I mean, they

1:18:59can't spend all that they have.

1:19:01Right. It's a marker. It's a, it's like chips.

1:19:05You're stacking up. Exactly. Right.

1:19:08They're scoring in a video game.

1:19:09Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and - But also captured by their past actions and constantly

1:19:16trying to obfuscate from all the things that they have done in the past that

1:19:20could be, like, if you just went into Bill Gates' stuff that he did in

1:19:23Africa, giving children polio with the polio vaccine that was from the AP News.

1:19:30Africa and India. Yeah. I mean, he's kind of banned from India.

1:19:34The, yeah. So I don't get it.

1:19:37I don't get where these people live.

1:19:39I, I'm, I'm happy. You know, as far as I'm concerned, I could walk away

1:19:45from all this stuff. It's just kind of a sense of obligation of what are

1:19:49you going to do when you're 66?

1:19:51I have this opportunity to impact in a positive way on the world on my

1:19:56way out the door. Who wouldn't take it?

1:19:59Well, I guess a lot of people wouldn't, but I don't have a need to

1:20:02have power. I have, thank God for my Substack subscribers.

1:20:07I have all, all that I need.

1:20:10My wife is happy. My horses are fed.

1:20:14My farm is paid off.

1:20:16It's, it's, you know, it's, and I have the luxury of doing good works and

1:20:22that's enough. I don't, I don't get this, this global power thrust and hunger.

1:20:30Because that's not what you do.

1:20:31That's not your thing. But if you were a politician or you were some megalomaniacal

1:20:37billionaire sort of business character that just wants to dominate and it was involved in

1:20:42a bunch of antitrust lawsuits in the past, that would be what you - Not

1:20:46that we're naming any names.

1:20:47Not that we're naming any names.

1:20:49It bribed off multimedia corporations to the tune of 300 plus million dollars so that

1:20:54they wouldn't write bad stories about him.

1:20:56Or, or owns, you know, functionally owns the World Health Organization.

1:21:00Right. And a giant chunk of American farmland for, was for a - wild trying

1:21:04to push that fake meat shit on everybody until that dropped off a cliff.

1:21:09Yeah. So the business models aren't working out so good for the globalists, are they?

1:21:13I think a lot of it is because of information that's available now.

1:21:16Yeah. And you can't control.

1:21:18Like, one of the things that did happen during COVID is these places like CNN,

1:21:25people stopped going to for information.

1:21:27They don't believe them anymore.

1:21:29There's just too much bullshit and no one got in trouble for spreading that bullshit.

1:21:33There was no corrections, no redactions, no apologies.

1:21:38Yeah. No acknowledgement. People now more than ever in my lifetime mistrust mainstream media.

1:21:45And polls show that. Polls show that the trust of mainstream media is at an

1:21:49all -time low for good reason.

1:21:51They did it to themselves.

1:21:52They prostituted themselves out to the pharmaceutical drug companies.

1:21:55They had to say what they had to say on television.

1:21:58People knew what they were saying was incorrect.

1:22:00And now no one trusts them.

1:22:03So to this thread, about four years ago, I read a report from the Trusted

1:22:10News Initiative. You remember the TNI?

1:22:12Yeah. It was launched by the BBC.

1:22:15Right. to counter Russian disinformation and then repurposed to counter vaccine disinformation.

1:22:22And I read this report about I'd gone on your show.

1:22:27So I was a little bit of a fan.

1:22:28Forgive me. And so I'm reading this report and they're talking about threats to the

1:22:34industry. Because TNI is basically another trade organization.

1:22:39It's another guild. It's a global major media guild.

1:22:44And so they're doing this internal analysis and reporting.

1:22:47And they're talking about the risk vectors that they face.

1:22:51And they had a whole great big section on Joe Rogan.

1:22:55Joe Rogan represents that. That was their threat.

1:23:03That was the major threat to their business model is you and what you represent.

1:23:09You as a metaphor for this new information economy.

1:23:14And by God, they called it right.

1:23:17It's, it's, and when I, this, again, this has been part of my journey.

1:23:21When I realized what I was experiencing and what it meant to come on your

1:23:28show and have that event occur, which, by the way, blew up my subscribers on

1:23:36Substack. Thank you so much.

1:23:38I still get a wave every year about in the, in the month following.

1:23:43So January, I get a big bump in revenue.

1:23:47Well, it blew up our subscribers on Spotify too.

1:23:50During the heat of it, we gained in one month, we gained 2 million subscribers.

1:23:54I had, I had, I had, oh yeah, please.

1:23:57What is the, what's the Spotify subscribers?

1:24:00I never even, I know YouTube is over 20, 20 million.

1:24:04What is Spotify at? So while he's looking that up, I had this bizarre experience.

1:24:10You know, I'm just an old gray haired guy with a, with, you know, I'm

1:24:12about to have my 47th wedding anniversary.

1:24:15Congratulations. Thank you. I'm proud of it.

1:24:19I would have 20 year olds come up in the street and fist bump me.

1:24:23I'm like, what the hell?

1:24:27Yeah. Well, they don't have a representative.

1:24:30I mean, they don't see all males, all males.

1:24:32Yes. Males. Those males don't have anybody in mainstream news that represents anything that resembles

1:24:38them. I mean, I know I'm much older than them, but I never went down

1:24:44this path of decay and weirdness that a lot of adult males go into corporate

1:24:49business and industry and they become something unrecognizable to these young men who have freedom

1:24:55in life and they're being suppressed and they're being told that they're toxic.

1:24:58That was a singer right there.

1:25:00Yeah. Young men that have freedom in life.

1:25:03Yeah. And then they compromise themselves.

1:25:05They don't want to be what their dad is.

1:25:07They don't want to be what their uncle is.

1:25:09They don't want to be these people that they work for.

1:25:11They're like, what is this fucking bullshit life?

1:25:13I don't want that. I know I'm being lied to.

1:25:16I know the news is full of shit and I know, that this one guy

1:25:20who is also a cage fighting commentator and a comedian and doesn't have to lie.

1:25:29Like I'm not being, I don't have a boss really.

1:25:31I mean, Spotify promotes the show and they put the show out.

1:25:34We're in partnership with them, but there's no one telling me what to do, which

1:25:38is why you're here right now.

1:25:40Cause there's no one. I don't have a conversation with no one.

1:25:44I literally like reach out to my guy and say, Hey, contact Mr.

1:25:50Malone and let's get him back on.

1:25:53All I know. All I know is I got a message, uh, from through X

1:25:58saying, Joe Rogan, do you want to come on?

1:26:01That was actually me. That message is me, which I rarely use those things, but

1:26:05I was trying to figure out how to contact you.

1:26:07So I reached out to you there and then I sent it to my guy

1:26:10and he takes care of it.

1:26:11Like that's it. There's no one else.

1:26:13There's no one involved in all that, which you could still be you that way.

1:26:18As soon as you get involved in enormous groups of humans and a bunch of

1:26:23board, you have to sit down at a table with other executives.

1:26:27You have to make decisions based on the profitability of the company and shareholders and

1:26:33stuff. I have none of that.

1:26:34Yeah. It's a skeleton crew.

1:26:36So as I look back, you know, the question, why were you able to do

1:26:42this Malone? Um, why were you able to, you know, Oh, you were so brave,

1:26:48Dr. Malone. I could Well, Robert Malone, that name became like a pejorative.

1:26:53It became like, Oh yeah, that Malone guy.

1:26:56Yeah. It's, it's all weaponized.

1:26:57Um, but, but then on the other side, I, you know, I tour, I do

1:27:01these rallies and stuff like this and, uh, you know, my wife, it really makes

1:27:06my wife nervous. I, I'm middle -aged women come up to me and they want

1:27:13to have selfies. Uh, and, and I get this, uh, Oh, Dr.

1:27:17Malone, you were so brave.

1:27:17You're such a hero. kind of stuff, which I frankly find a little embarrassing.

1:27:21I mean, it's sweet, but yeah, there's a lot of heroes.

1:27:25Really heroes? Why was that?

1:27:27Yeah, yeah, the guys that defend the nation.

1:27:34But why was I able to speak?

1:27:36I think a big part of it was I had no debt.

1:27:40I wasn't beholden to anybody.

1:27:41Right. And like you say, I'd been about a decade being a consultant, a free

1:27:47-living consultant. And it had gotten under my skin.

1:27:50I've always been independent, you know, farmer, carpenter kind of stuff.

1:27:55And that's, I guess, been part of my problem is I just don't fit in

1:28:01in corporate life. I can't suck up to people and it's just not in me.

1:28:06Well, it's a very unhealthy environment for anybody to get sucked into that bizarre group

1:28:12think. It's just good word.

1:28:15It's what it is, right?

1:28:16Yeah. So this decentralized subscriber -based model, the epiphany was, and I'm being quite sincere,

1:28:29you know, it was one of those moments my wife and I looked at each

1:28:31other and we said, what the hell are we going to do now?

1:28:34Our consulting business is shot.

1:28:36Nobody wants to talk to me.

1:28:37I've been delegitimized. They say, I don't know what I know.

1:28:40I haven't done what I've done.

1:28:41And this has been promoted by all the top liberal publications in the world.

1:28:47And so I said, okay, Rogan built this thing day after day, week after week

1:28:56for years. He just stayed on it and doing it and we can do that

1:29:01too. We can bring that kind of work ethic into our world.

1:29:06Steve Kirsch had told me you ought to get on Spotify and we went, we

1:29:10took it on seriously. We've published thousands of essays now, almost every day.

1:29:16It's, you know - You mean Substack.

1:29:18Substack. What did I say?

1:29:19Substack. I apologize. Yeah. I apologize.

1:29:22And so we just work at it again and again and again, trying to put

1:29:27out content. And we're shadow banned and small roomed on X in a serious way.

1:29:34You know, we got 1 .3 million subscribers of which, you know, all the time

1:29:39I get feedback. I never see your stuff.

1:29:42Well, it's algorithmic, whatever it is.

1:29:44You know, and you can ask Grok about Robert Malone and, you know, you get

1:29:48back, you know, I'm a controversial figure, but, you know, not whining.

1:30:00And so we have a lot of subscribers, but we just have this core paid

1:30:05subscribers and they send in their five bucks a month and it's all we need.

1:30:12And it totally sets us free.

1:30:14We can talk about whatever we want.

1:30:18And yeah, now that I'm a pseudo -government employee, I'm a special government employee without

1:30:22pay. Boy, that's like the worst of both worlds.

1:30:26Because there's - I have - The truth is, I have guardrails that constrain me

1:30:35in a way that I didn't used to be constrained for talking about some things.

1:30:39You know, I have to live in this world.

1:30:43I interface with the secretary and with the deputy chief of staff and other people.

1:30:48And now I'm working with the State Department more.

1:30:52And so, you know, I have to be more mindful.

1:30:58What is your function? Like, what do you do over there?

1:31:01At state or - Yeah, both.

1:31:03When you're working for the government, like, how do they use your services?

1:31:08So, the special government employee category is a designation from the executive branch.

1:31:15It's the one that Elon had.

1:31:17I like to say I'm in the same category as Elon was, only without all

1:31:20the money. So, he was an SGE without pay.

1:31:25I'm an SGE without pay.

1:31:27And because I serve on the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the CDC, which

1:31:34is this - They call it - It's a FACA committee, Federal Advisory Committee Act,

1:31:38that advises the director of the CDC.

1:31:41That's its only job on vaccine policy.

1:31:44Okay? So, I'm the vice chair, which is largely honorary.

1:31:48What that means is that if the chair isn't there, I draw the short straw

1:31:52and I have to chair those bloody meetings.

1:31:54Like the last one for hepatitis B, birth dose, which was just a slugfest.

1:32:01Ugly. The worst meeting I've ever had to adjudicate my entire life.

1:32:07But for the most part, I sit on the subcommittees.

1:32:11I sit on the COVID Working Group subcommittee.

1:32:14I'm not supposed to talk about the next meeting.

1:32:16I was told two days ago.

1:32:20So, that's one of my guardrails.

1:32:25But stay tuned for what is going to come down if the AAP lawsuit doesn't

1:32:31prevail and we're allowed to actually have the meeting.

1:32:34But – so, that's that.

1:32:36I'm also the chair of the Influenza Working Group.

1:32:39Stay tuned for that. And now I am – so, and I – from time

1:32:46to time, the secretary asks me to help him sort out some issue.

1:32:50You know, I'll get a phone call.

1:32:52I once got a phone call on the Big Island.

1:32:56And I did this recent series of rallies to try to – you know, to

1:33:02recap the whole reason why that we did that first hit was to try to

1:33:06publicize the Stop the Mandates rally in D .C.

1:33:10That was the subtext for that, as you'll recall.

1:33:14And I forgot to even mention it.

1:33:15We had to go back in to do another shoot for that.

1:33:18Remember? Remember, I'm still fighting that same battle of trying to stop these mandated vaccines.

1:33:23So, I'm sitting there in Hawaii.

1:33:25I'm going to another one of these rallies.

1:33:27I get a call out of the blue from one of Bobby's people.

1:33:30And they want some advice about a topic.

1:33:32having to do with the decision he has to make about spending money on another

1:33:39biodefense initiative. So I get that kind of stuff.

1:33:42He called me soon after he was confirmed to get my opinion about what was

1:33:48going on in the chicken industry and all the slaughter that was happening for bird

1:33:53flu. And I told him this doesn't make sense.

1:33:55It's not good policy. There's no way you can get rid of bird flu doing

1:33:57this. It's in the wild bird populations.

1:33:59And this is just nonsensical what they're doing.

1:34:02Why do you think they did that?

1:34:05Okay. So that's interesting that now we drive into a kind of public health and

1:34:14vaccinology. You're asking the why.

1:34:17And it's been a longstanding policy.

1:34:19They killed millions of chickens, right?

1:34:21They do it every time.

1:34:22Every time there's a bird flu.

1:34:24Yeah. It's in any other outbreak.

1:34:27So right now in Spain, I just wrote an essay about this.

1:34:30It was maybe the biggest reveal on what's going on in Spain right now.

1:34:34There's a Spanish research lab that's been collaborating with the USDA that is investigating swine

1:34:42fever virus. And they're actually doing gain of function research on swine fever virus.

1:34:46Swine fever virus, African swine fever virus kills pigs like crazy.

1:34:52And already China has locked down and will not accept Spanish pork.

1:34:57And it is a lab leak.

1:35:00And there was a bunch of dead hogs last November around this facility.

1:35:04And now it's the Spanish and the European Union are blowing a circuit over this

1:35:11because it's really compromised the Spanish pork industry.

1:35:18So this kind of stuff, when this happens, the reaction is we just have to

1:35:26kill all of them. We have to kill all the potential carriers.

1:35:30And this has been the wisdom, quote, of in this kind of agrarian animal husbandry

1:35:42world for a long time in the context in particular of factory farming.

1:35:48So the logic is that if you were to vaccinate these birds with a leaky

1:35:56vaccine, which, you know, COVID was a leaky vaccine, influenza is a leaky vaccine.

1:36:01If you give the birds a leaky vaccine, what you'll get out of that is

1:36:05precisely vaccine -resistant flu. Okay.

1:36:08And so we have no choice, has been the logic, but to exterminate, you know,

1:36:16like the ostriches in Canada.

1:36:17Remember that story? That was shocking.

1:36:19Okay. There was no logic behind that.

1:36:22It's gone. It's become entrenched as policy, as kind of this reflexive knee -jerk thing

1:36:28that if we have an outbreak, what we do is we kill because we can't

1:36:32control the virus. And the things that we could do to control the virus aren't

1:36:36really going to control it.

1:36:37And it's actually going to make things worse.

1:36:39Is there any logic to that?

1:36:43We can argue with the margins.

1:36:45We can argue with the margins.

1:36:46But when you got something that if you had something that didn't have a natural

1:36:50reservoir, then you can make the case that you could eliminate it in that geographic

1:37:00population and keep it from spreading outside.

1:37:03But when you have a natural reservoir, like - Explain that.

1:37:07Explain the natural reservoir. Okay.

1:37:09In the case of avian influenza, waterfowl and migratory birds are amazing vectors for carrying

1:37:23and propagating influenza. And influenza survives in water for a very long period of time.

1:37:29And so you've got ducks and geese traveling north to south, all over every continent

1:37:37that are susceptible to infection by avian influenza and all the other migratory birds.

1:37:44But in particular, the waterfowl, galiforms, my wife would wrap me on the head if

1:37:52I didn't use the right term.

1:37:53So she's an avian specialist.

1:37:56So these birds carry the flu.

1:38:01And a number of them are relatively resistant.

1:38:04They've been subjected to avian influenza for centuries or millennia.

1:38:10And sometimes you'll get a variant come out that'll wipe out a whole bunch of

1:38:15birds. West Nile virus in crows is a great example.

1:38:19And now you have crow populations coming back that are resistant to West Nile.

1:38:23We haven't gotten rid of West Nile.

1:38:25We've just bred more resistant birds.

1:38:28That's kind of, you know, that's Brett Weinstein's space, right?

1:38:30That's evolution. It's magical. And so if you have a natural animal reservoir like the

1:38:40ticks and lime and deer, what are you going to do?

1:38:47Exterminate all the deer? No, that's not practical.

1:38:53Mao tried to exterminate the birds because of the thesis that they were eating up

1:38:59all the spare grain and compromising availability of food to the populace, right?

1:39:04And what happened? Major ecological catastrophe.

1:39:08You can't eliminate the birds.

1:39:10You can't go and kill all the waterfowl.

1:39:14That would just be ecologically insane.

1:39:18But, you know, sometimes we do insane things.

1:39:21And in the case of avian influenza, it's there.

1:39:25It's endemic. It's in all that migratory waterfowl.

1:39:28They poop an amazing amount of influenza.

1:39:31It gets in the water supply.

1:39:32The water supply goes everywhere.

1:39:34They, you know, small birds are interacting with, I don't know if you've ever been

1:39:38around a chicken barn or turkey barns.

1:39:41Okay. Yeah. There's chickens and then there's commercial chicken production, right?

1:39:45Right. Yeah. So, so these.

1:39:47So operations are like petri dishes for bad stuff happening.

1:39:51And the only way you can interfere with that, and by the way, the Amish

1:39:54are starting to do it, is put something in the water supply.

1:39:58And what the Amish are using is a compound called hypochlorous acid.

1:40:03And it's stopping these things and it's stopping the E.

1:40:07coli and a lot of other stuff.

1:40:08But the U .S., that's another problem, is when you have these, the momentum of

1:40:15these large government agencies with their consensus about the way things are done, you know,

1:40:22there's a saying that the only time the FDA ever changes is if somebody in

1:40:29a key position retires or passes away.

1:40:32They kind of get entrenched in this is how we do things.

1:40:36We kill chickens. If we have avian influenza come out, we kill chicken barns.

1:40:41And this is the beauty of Secretary Kennedy coming in, being kind of not invested

1:40:48in the way things are and the way we do things and being willing to

1:40:54ask the questions, does this really make sense?

1:40:59And that has been heresy.

1:41:01It obviously is still heresy to do that, to ask those questions, to, you know,

1:41:07have the president say, we need to restructure the vaccine schedule.

1:41:10Oh, my God, the sky is falling.

1:41:13Kids are going to die left and right.

1:41:15There's going to be death on the street because we ended the thimerosal in multidose

1:41:20influenza vials. This kind of catastrophic thinking.

1:41:25But Kennedy has, and the president, have the courage to question these narratives, these long

1:41:32-held standing beliefs. And in the case of the bird flu, you know, he called

1:41:36me up. I said, Bobby, I don't think this makes sense.

1:41:39I think that what we really need to do is we need to breed resistant

1:41:41chickens. And the way we breed resistant chickens, and by the way, we've written about

1:41:46this also in our sub -stack.

1:41:47There are, in the domain of chicken cultivars, you have chickens.

1:41:55You know, there are people that are just freaks about chickens.

1:41:58Yeah. And all of these, but because of that, we have this huge repository of

1:42:04different cultivars of chickens. You know, we could say they were all generated through gain

1:42:09-of -function research, the old school way.

1:42:13And a number of those are relatively resistant to bird flu.

1:42:16Well, in a logical world, you would have Tysons, and, you know, maybe the government

1:42:22has to incentivize this. It shouldn't have to.

1:42:24You would have Tysons in there saying, well, guys, what we need is a bird

1:42:29flu resistant chicken. Let's get on it.

1:42:32Okay? And that is essentially the position that the secretary took, is this policy of

1:42:39just extremely aggressive mass culling is not producing the outcome that we want.

1:42:46It has never produced the outcome that we want.

1:42:48It will never eliminate bird flu because it has an endemic reservoir, and we've got

1:42:54to think different. And now that's starting to percolate through the system, and there is

1:43:00more research into alternative strategies, including the possibility of various prophylactic interventions in feed and

1:43:11in water. That's, you know, and a lot of these chicken houses mist.

1:43:15As you recall, they have the misters because they've got to control the temperatures.

1:43:18So they are set up with misters, and that can also be a way to

1:43:22deliver things that are non -toxic, like HOCL, that can knock out these viruses and

1:43:30E. coli and other things that cause reduced growth and loss of weight in chickens,

1:43:39which is the metric that Tysons and those guys is food conversion.

1:43:43That's the metric they all pray to.

1:43:46You know, we can think differently, and we have been locked into, you know, consensus

1:43:54that has emerged over decades based on old ways of thinking.

1:44:00And the same people are in charge, so they don't want to change.

1:44:04And they kind of often kind of have these lineages where they're passing power on

1:44:10to the people that they've mentored.

1:44:12So that's my HHS world.

1:44:14And then the State Department world is a new thing that's come in.

1:44:18I have a—I'm starting to support the group under Secretary Rubio that's responsible for the

1:44:29various treaties having to do with arms containment, and in particular, the Bioweapons Convention.

1:44:37So this morning, I got up early, and, you know, there was—so, honest to God,

1:44:44I don't want to pump you up too much.

1:44:46I mean, you might get an ego or something, but—so I say to the state—they

1:44:50say, Robert, we want you to go to Geneva to give this talk on the

1:44:54use of AI for monitoring bioweapons threats, because we have no way of monitoring compliance

1:45:02with the Bioweapons Convention right now, and it's been a historic problem.

1:45:05And the president has said that we're going to—we think that we can apply artificial

1:45:12intelligence to this problem set of monitoring and verifying compliance with the Bioweapons Convention, which

1:45:20is heresy. It's another one of these thinking outside of the box things.

1:45:23So they say, we want you to go to Geneva and give this talk and

1:45:27be the keynote. And I say, and what's the date?

1:45:33Oh, it's February 12th. And I say, I don't talk about this because, you know,

1:45:41it's the general thing. You don't tell people that you're going to be on Rogan.

1:45:44You let Rogan say that when Rogan's ready.

1:45:48And so I said, but I'm scheduled for Rogan that day.

1:45:52And they're like, oh, Rogan.

1:45:54Well, OK, absolutely. You got to go on that one.

1:45:56That's way more important than going and speaking at the UN.

1:46:00And so you're the State Department.

1:46:01thinks you're more important than me talking about bioweapons.

1:46:05And they let me WebEx it.

1:46:08So that's what happened this morning.

1:46:10And it is a – so I'm supporting that group now and maybe increasingly over

1:46:20time. And I don't know where that goes.

1:46:22So you were talking about these pigs that it's a lab leak that's giving these

1:46:29pigs. Yeah, in Spain. And what – is it another gain -of -function laboratory where

1:46:33there – So this is truly a breaking news thing.

1:46:38Our media is not covering it.

1:46:41Shocker. Yeah. It is being covered in Europe and particularly in Spain.

1:46:48This is a major economic threat because they're, I think, the number two pork producer

1:46:53in the world. And in the hogs, they're feeding on acorns, et cetera.

1:46:58That's a big specialty market space.

1:47:01Yeah. So last November, this laboratory that is ostensibly working, this is – I mean

1:47:10it's Wuhan 2 .0. Only the good news is that this is not swine flu.

1:47:19People get that confused. I'm not talking about swine flu.

1:47:23This is African swine fever.

1:47:26It's been around for millennia.

1:47:28It's never crossed into humans.

1:47:30It's a very different virus.

1:47:31So just make sure we got that clear.

1:47:34Okay. So this highly lethal African swine fever virus is a threat to the global

1:47:45pork industry. And so this laboratory in Spain is cooperating with the USDA to try

1:47:54to develop a new vaccine for African swine fever.

1:47:58And in doing so, our government once again was unaware that this even existed.

1:48:06There's a cooperative agreement between USDA and this laboratory to engage in – if you

1:48:14read – they don't call it gain -of -function research.

1:48:16They call it building recombinant viruses and experimenting in different virus structures to allow them

1:48:26to better – build a better vaccine.

1:48:28Exactly the same logic that was used in Wuhan.

1:48:31Okay. Now, then last November – so this is ongoing in this little laboratory.

1:48:39And what this relates to, Joe, is the idea that is being promoted that for

1:48:44justice and equity and sharing, we need to enable there being distribution of highly infectious

1:48:54pathogens all over the world in separate laboratories so that we in the Big Bad

1:49:00West are not imposing and enabling our industries to prey on, name your emerging economy,

1:49:09by taking biologic resources from them, in other words, new viruses, and using them to

1:49:16build stuff. We have to cooperate and they have to have access to these reagents.

1:49:20So the logic right now that's in play and being promoted by the WHO is

1:49:25that we should have high pathogen repositories and research programs all over the world, decentralized

1:49:33in these emerging economy states.

1:49:36Spain is not Germany. But – so there's a Spanish lab.

1:49:42USDA is cooperating with them.

1:49:44They're going to build an African swine fever virus vaccine.

1:49:47They're doing gain -of -function research.

1:49:50And then – and by the way, just like in Wuhan, there's some construction going

1:49:54on related to that. And then suddenly – and it's an area that is very

1:50:03dense in wild hogs. Now, somehow we got to get this through our brain.

1:50:07Okay. You don't put the facility in a place that's proximal to the thing that

1:50:13might get infected if you have a lab leak.

1:50:15I mean that ought to be like rule number one stamped on everybody's brain.

1:50:19You don't do it. Like the Rocky Mountain labs make a lot of sense.

1:50:22If you're going to be working with nasty stuff and you got to do it,

1:50:26put it somewhere obscure, not in Boston, right?

1:50:30So they're doing it. They're surrounded by dense wild hog population.

1:50:33And suddenly last November, people detect there is wild hogs dead all over around this

1:50:39facility. What could possibly have happened?

1:50:42So they start investigating the police have been in, grabbed the records, grabbed the digital

1:50:49information, et cetera, because the entire Spanish pork industry is now compromised.

1:50:56Their major client, China, has already pulled their trade barriers.

1:51:01No more Spanish pork going into China.

1:51:04I advocate that President Trump ought to drop the curtain right now because when I

1:51:10looked at the distribution of wild hogs, I mean, you've traveled enough.

1:51:13You know how important wild feral hogs are in the economy in Italy.

1:51:21The wild hogs are all over in Europe.

1:51:25And this place in Catalonia is right near the French border.

1:51:29I don't – and then like right on the other side, a couple hundred miles

1:51:32is Italy and the band of high -density wild hogs spreads like that up through

1:51:40the mountains and then down into Italy.

1:51:42And I think that if I was sitting in the White House right now, I

1:51:50think to protect – you know, both for – the president, core constituency is ag.

1:51:59Voted for him, you know, three times.

1:52:05And he's – he holds that near and dear.

1:52:08And I think that it's good politics and it's good public health.

1:52:13It's good health. Thank you.

1:52:16cultural decision to raise the barriers now until we can see that Europe has resolved

1:52:25the risk associated with this.

1:52:27How are they going to resolve that?

1:52:29So once again, what - Because it's wild hogs.

1:52:32This is not like it's anything that's contained.

1:52:34And to your point, I don't know the answer.

1:52:37I mean, right now what they're doing is they're using drones to try to find

1:52:43- you know how hard it is to hunt wild hog.

1:52:45Yeah. I found them out of helicopters here in Texas.

1:52:48Yeah. And they still can't even present them.

1:52:50Yeah. And the hogs are winning.

1:52:53It's like the emu wars in Australia, right?

1:52:56My friend Monty Franklin is from Australia, actually has a joke about that.

1:53:00We fought a war with the emus and we lost.

1:53:03It's true. We have emus on our farm and they're weird animals, man.

1:53:08It's like living with dinosaurs.

1:53:10They're dumb as shit, too.

1:53:11They are weird. My wife says they don't have two brain cells to rub together.

1:53:17I talked to a lady who's a falconer and she said the dumbest birds by

1:53:20far are emus. Second dumbest are owls, she said.

1:53:24Oh, really? I didn't know the owls.

1:53:25Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I didn't know that.

1:53:26I thought they were so smart.

1:53:28Give a hoot. Don't pollute.

1:53:29They're always wearing a monocle.

1:53:32They're always the wise professor.

1:53:34Well, right. It goes back to Athens.

1:53:37The symbol of learning has been now.

1:53:40Very weird. Very weird. Yeah.

1:53:41So emus are weird. So they have to try to use drones.

1:53:44I don't know what they're going to do.

1:53:45What they did to control in Europe.

1:53:47So the former assistant director general of the WHO, who I knew, this was her

1:53:52claim to fame, was she had led the development of rabies baits.

1:53:59And they would bait with a rabies vaccine to try to control the incidence of

1:54:09rabies in particularly foxes was the problem throughout Europe.

1:54:13And a lot of the foxes were crossing from the less developed part of the

1:54:21European Union into France, which was not acceptable.

1:54:24She was French. And so what they did is they developed these baits with a

1:54:30vaccine and they would distribute them out of helicopters.

1:54:35And there's a whole science about how dense the baits have to be to get

1:54:40immunity against rabies. In fox populations, a whole science around it.

1:54:47But they were successful. They controlled fox and wolf population rabies in Europe, largely eradicated

1:54:54it through the use of baits distributed by helicopters.

1:54:58Do they have a vaccine for this?

1:54:59No, they don't. That's what they were supposed to be developing.

1:55:01That was the whole purpose.

1:55:02They were supposed to be developing.

1:55:03But really what they were developing is a more transmissible strain.

1:55:08Whatever. In order to prove that they could, I don't know.

1:55:12It's the same story over and over again.

1:55:15It's Wuhan 2 .0. Exactly.

1:55:16And how are we not going to see this as an increasing trend?

1:55:23And there's the whole dark side that when I read my comments, maybe I shouldn't

1:55:29sometimes, but I do. Don't do it after this show.

1:55:33Yeah. So, you know, you get the blowback.

1:55:38Well, this is all by intention because they're building market for whatever it is that

1:55:43they want to market, right?

1:55:44That's the, there's one of the dark themes about COVID was that they wanted to

1:55:49promote the spread of COVID in order to sell the vaccines and blah, blah, blah.

1:55:52You know, so that's the narrative.

1:55:54And so in this case, well, they want to spread African swine fever because somehow

1:56:00they're going to profit from that while destroying their pork industry.

1:56:03You know, but this is the armchair strategists on the internet.

1:56:09But that - Has it gotten into the domestic pork market?

1:56:13Interesting question. Not to my knowledge yet, but I have this interesting colleague that I

1:56:19work with closely at the ACIP named Retsif Levy, who's the chair of the COVID

1:56:24working group and has giving the pharmaceutical industry a run for their money right now.

1:56:29And it's, of course, being vilified by the press, et cetera.

1:56:33And Retsif is a full professor at MIT.

1:56:38And his core competence is risk analysis and mitigation.

1:56:44And he reads my substack because we're friends.

1:56:49He doesn't subscribe, I'm pretty sure, but he reads it.

1:56:55And so we're talking and he says, yeah, I read that thing that you put

1:56:59out about that virus. And he said, I wrote a proposal years ago about risk

1:57:05mitigation and the need to do something about that because of the ease by which

1:57:10it can enter the domestic pork population.

1:57:15So I infer from that that there is a whole body of science and logic

1:57:19about, and he said, it's very readily transmitted into commercial pork, which is why the

1:57:27Chinese have already dropped the curtain and said, no, we're not going to allow any

1:57:31of that into China because of the risk.

1:57:35I mean, what we're talking about.

1:57:37So I wrote an essay about low risk, high impact events, which is what we're

1:57:47talking about. Another example of a low risk, high impact event is gene drive technology

1:57:54that Gates is promoting to exterminate the mosquitoes, for example.

1:57:58You know, gene drive technology can be used to exterminate a species, particularly ones that

1:58:03have a high reproductive rate.

1:58:06And, you know, it's another one that is a CRISPR application.

1:58:10But there is a whole school of thought that gene drive tech should never be

1:58:17let out of the box into the environment.

1:58:20Because in what's, you know, there are those that are actively promoting its use and

1:58:29to eliminate bad. stuff. And, you know, we're all for eliminating bad stuff.

1:58:37You know, organisms, insects, worms, flies, stuff.

1:58:43And yet, and we can do experiments where we say, oh, we'll cultivate this kind

1:58:52of fly together with that kind of fly and only these flies are going to

1:58:54have gene drive and we're going to look for whether or not it gets over

1:58:56to these flies. And if it doesn't, then we can conclude that it's unlikely.

1:59:00But as Brett would tell you, we're dealing with ecosystems here, really complex ecosystems.

1:59:06And the risk environment now that I think grownups have to acknowledge coming out of

1:59:16COVID, you know, the big lessons.

1:59:17We can talk about these egregious things that we've all experienced that have been put

1:59:24on us. But the big picture is this thing came out and I'm convinced it

1:59:30was engineered. I believe the most likely hypothesis is not that it was intentionally released.

1:59:36I still think that's a possibility.

1:59:38But that it was an unintentional release, an infection of a lab worker or something

1:59:45like that that let it get out.

1:59:47Because that's what happens again and again in these facilities.

1:59:52These low probability events can have extremely high impacts and as we've seen global impacts.

2:00:00And we have to rethink how we're managing risk, which is, as I mentioned, RETSF's

2:00:07kind of core competence. And that logic runs up against this belief that, well, it

2:00:17hasn't happened so far and I'm an expert and I have the right to play

2:00:21around in this sandbox that I've helped develop.

2:00:25I know more than you do.

2:00:27How can you tell me that I shouldn't be doing that?

2:00:29You don't have the right to tell me.

2:00:30I'm the expert in this space.

2:00:32And to come into that environment and say, look, guys, you're playing around with stuff

2:00:37that could have a very high impact, even though it hasn't happened yet.

2:00:43And you got to rethink what is acceptable.

2:00:50And I think that, you know, we were talking a moment about the State Department

2:00:54and weapon control. We're now in an environment where the speed of growth of the

2:01:08power of biotechnology is accelerating.

2:01:10It's going exponential, just like what we saw with semiconductors.

2:01:15And our bioethics, our regulatory structures, our way of thinking about those risks is completely

2:01:29unable to keep up with the pace of the advance.

2:01:35And that is creating a whole new threat scene, not to scare people.

2:01:42I mean, as I was thinking about coming on here, I was saying to myself,

2:01:45OK, Robert, just take a deep breath.

2:01:47It's only Joe Rogan. He's a human.

2:01:50And you want to stay positive.

2:01:52And I don't want to go dark and just scare people.

2:01:55But we've got to take – we've got to recognize recognize that this is a

2:02:04different world now. We have all of this digital tech and what it means and

2:02:12information control and suppression and manipulation psychologically, basically programming, customized programming through avatars and all

2:02:26of this power. But we also have in parallel this world of rapidly advancing biotechnology

2:02:33that is, you know, for the likes of Yuval Harari and those that are imagining

2:02:41a future of transhumanism. And all of that means we are moving very rapidly into

2:02:53a world that we can hardly even process.

2:02:59One of the big thrust vectors in Silicon Valley right now relating to reproductive rights

2:03:04has to do with the development of artificial wombs.

2:03:07You know, these wealthy, privileged people don't want to carry their own babies.

2:03:15And I guess surrogates are too cumbersome or risky.

2:03:19So they're really talking about a baby that – It's not talking.

2:03:22It's not talking. They're – we're going to run an essay about this soon.

2:03:26They already have a lamb that they have grown de novo in an artificial womb.

2:03:33Oh, God. We're there. OK?

2:03:37And these people see it as freeing.

2:03:39This is – this is more women's rights.

2:03:43You know, we don't need to have the organic process of carrying a baby.

2:03:52And that's a good thing, they believe.

2:03:55You know, completely disregarding that there is a whole lot of subtle, complex interactions that

2:04:02occur between mother and fetus in the womb.

2:04:06OK? That gives rise to – Right.

2:04:08You're – who knows what kind of humans you're going to develop with no interaction

2:04:13with the mother at all the entire nine months where they're developing.

2:04:16But that – The exchange of hormones.

2:04:18But for the sake of convenience, we want to do that.

2:04:21Oh, God. OK? And that – what that – you know, zoom in on that.

2:04:28OK? That has all kinds of implications.

2:04:30It has implications for organ transplantation.

2:04:34My friend Jan Jekalik – I don't know if you know Jan, if you've ever

2:04:36had him on. You might want to sometime.

2:04:39Interesting character. He is the Washington bureau chief for this newspaper that is defamed.

2:04:45to all the time ridiculed Epoch Times, which I think is like the only print

2:04:50newspaper left in the United States that's worth reading that ascribes to classical journalism.

2:04:55But he's just come out with a book about organ harvesting in China and organ

2:05:02harvesting on demand, documenting that they are using live prisoners and keeping them in compounds

2:05:09and testing them for their genetic background and characteristics, and then harvesting them when necessary

2:05:14to provide organs for transplantation largely to Westerners because it is enormously profitable and also

2:05:21to leaders in the CCP.

2:05:23This is what all this brouhaha was about the open mic event with Putin, about

2:05:27we can use transplantation to let us live another hundred years.

2:05:31Remember that little clip? So in a world in which we can have artificial wombs,

2:05:39we can grow our own clones to provide donor tissue, to provide an insurance policy.

2:05:49We are right at the doorstep of that.

2:05:52Okay? Again, demonic. It sounds demonic.

2:05:57I mean, is a soul a real thing?

2:05:59Just because it can't be quantified by science, you can't measure it?

2:06:03I mean, the concept of the soul has always existed.

2:06:05If that's a real thing, who knows what you're doing creating a human being from

2:06:12an artificial womb? Who knows what kind of processes are happening?

2:06:16We know that stress on the mother imparts all sorts of unwanted characteristics in children.

2:06:24We know that. We know, like...

2:06:27All kinds of interactions. Yes.

2:06:28The playing of music. That's real.

2:06:30Yes. Okay? Yes. Soothing playing of music.

2:06:33Yeah. So that's happening. That vector is proceeding.

2:06:39And once you have that in a world of CRISPR, okay, you can do genetic

2:06:46modification of a very small number of cells and then grow a fetus from that.

2:06:50Okay? So that opens the door to...

2:06:54Did you watch the movie Gattaca?

2:06:56Yeah. Gattaca, absolutely recommended. If you want to understand our brave new world, the one

2:07:03that's really coming at us and the ethical conundrums associated with that, watch Gattaca.

2:07:09And by the way, it has great production value too, doesn't it?

2:07:11It's a well -made movie.

2:07:12It's a great movie. Great movie.

2:07:13And totally underappreciated. And terrifying.

2:07:15Yeah. If that's really what our future is.

2:07:18And the title G -A -T -T -A -G -A refers to a DNA sequence,

2:07:22by the way. That's why the name Gattaca.

2:07:24Oh. Oh. Okay? So watch the movie.

2:07:29You've already seen it. Yeah.

2:07:30You get it. Okay? We're moving to that space where we have custom -built humans.

2:07:37Now it's being, you know, what's driving that?

2:07:41Convenience. Who doesn't want to have a child that's better than, that's like you, but

2:07:45better? Stronger. Bigger. You know, smarter.

2:07:50Yeah. Better vision. Get rid of all the problems that I've got, or you've got,

2:07:54or whomever, you know, and in your next offspring.

2:07:58And all you got to do, because here's another fun fact.

2:08:01At bulk, whole genome sequencing is now about 300 bucks.

2:08:08Whole genome sequencing is the portal for selective engineering with Cas9 CRISPR systems.

2:08:18So we're now, we're right on the threshold of that entire spectrum of capability of

2:08:25manipulating animals, life, fundamentals of life in every species and humans.

2:08:32And concurrently, we have the incoming vector of robotics technology and modern computational advance.

2:08:42You know, we're moving rapidly.

2:08:43You know, people say, oh, it's going to be next month we're going to have

2:08:46general artificial intelligence. Well, they keep saying that month after month.

2:08:50What do we got here?

2:08:52This video made about the artificial wounds.

2:08:56Yeah. Oh, boy. That looks creepy.

2:08:58I don't know who made this.

2:09:00I was trying to figure out who made this.

2:09:01I don't think the company was doing it made it, but they might have.

2:09:04I'm not BSing. I mean, doesn't this look like it's something straight out of the

2:09:08matrix? 100%. This is all 3D.

2:09:11Oh, my. Obviously, it's not real.

2:09:12But, oh, my God, this is terrifying.

2:09:15This is a business model.

2:09:17Like, what kind of psychology does this child have with no exposure to its mother?

2:09:22Hey, but for mom, it's a lot more convenient.

2:09:27And she can get the perfect baby that she wants.

2:09:30What's not to like here, Joe?

2:09:31Until it becomes a fucking serial killer.

2:09:33Yeah. And you put it on SSRIs.

2:09:35Well, this is the thing about – do you know the story about Ted Kaczynski?

2:09:39One of the stories – Tell me.

2:09:40One of the things that happened to him.

2:09:42In the Netflix documentary, they go into this.

2:09:43He was very sick when he was a boy, when he was a baby.

2:09:46And they kept him in this nursery with no contact with human beings for a

2:09:50long time, for a long time.

2:09:52No one picked him up when he cried.

2:09:54He just sat in this crib with no contact with his mother, nothing.

2:09:58Yeah. And he – from then on, I mean, his brother always described him as

2:10:03just like off. Yeah. Just off.

2:10:05Yeah. He never had that early – Early stage neural development is amazing and profound.

2:10:12By the way, this loops back to the vaccine story.

2:10:15When we're doing all these jabs on these little tiny kids like the hepatitis B

2:10:19birth dose, they are at a stage where this thing is just growing like crazy.

2:10:24And so is their liver and everything else.

2:10:26And you're injecting toxic chemicals into their body.

2:10:28Which you really haven't characterized well and you're stacking them.

2:10:34Yeah. And no one's done the studies.

2:10:37And you're doing it for profit.

2:10:38This is another thing that the secretary is adamant about and that the president has

2:10:43led on. Well, having them exempt from any legal ramifications of the adverse side effects

2:10:50of vaccines, what they did during the Reagan administration, it's really – it gave them

2:10:54this – Free license. Yeah, free license.

2:10:57To just go crazy. To just go crazy and jack up the vaccine.

2:10:59schedule as high as they could justify.

2:11:02And then along with it, corresponding profits rise.

2:11:05That's what's fucking scary. So if you want to go down that rabbit hole, it's

2:11:10even worse. Once functionally, because of how difficult it is to prove an endpoint and

2:11:17get a vaccine licensed, once you get it licensed, you basically have a cash cow

2:11:22in perpetuity. And if you get it down on the pediatric schedule, in other words,

2:11:27you manage to jam it through the ACIP.

2:11:30Because the ACIP, the wisdom of Congress, is vested with the authority of authorizing the

2:11:38Vaccines for Children program acquisitions.

2:11:40So there's no other program in the entire United States government that is outside of

2:11:47congressional oversight. The ACIP can decide that this vaccine needs to be purchased for the

2:11:53Vaccines for Children program. And historically, because the ACIP has been captured by pharma and

2:11:59by the CDC itself and by academia, those decisions, they never go backwards.

2:12:06And so you get the product down onto the VFC, the Vaccine for Children program,

2:12:12and the pediatric schedule. And then that triggers the indemnification clause that you're talking about,

2:12:17which, by the way, is different from the one that kicked in with the COVID

2:12:22situation, with the PrEP Act.

2:12:24That's even worse. But what you end up with, Joe, is a situation where, as

2:12:32the vaccine manufacturer, think it, you now have no legal liability.

2:12:38You have guaranteed purchasing, distribution, and marketing.

2:12:42Because the CDC does all the propaganda.

2:12:44Vaccines are safe and effective.

2:12:46You must take this, right?

2:12:47And then you end up with, and it's, in many cases, it's school district level.

2:12:52It's not even state level.

2:12:53The states have the right to regulate the practice of medicine.

2:12:56The federal government doesn't. That means the CDC can advise that this is the vaccine

2:13:01schedule. And many states, because they don't have the infrastructure to actually process what's going

2:13:05on, they say, well, if the CDC advises it, then we're going to mandate it.

2:13:09Okay. Or school districts do.

2:13:12And so you end up in this situation where you, as the manufacturer, get your

2:13:17product on the market. You get it down into this special program.

2:13:20You got guaranteed purchase, guaranteed profit, full indemnification, marketing, purchase, distribution, all paid for by

2:13:30the taxpayer. And no liability.

2:13:33It's perfect. As a business model, what's not to like?

2:13:37It's so scary how many people just go along with it, too.

2:13:41Oh, they don't just go along with it.

2:13:42They are propagandized into believing it as a - And promoting it because of the

2:13:47- They've administered to - Exactly.

2:13:49I was going to say it's religious dogma.

2:13:51They've administered it to their children.

2:13:53They believe it wholeheartedly. And when someone says something like, vaccines don't cause autism, the

2:13:58whole audience will applaud. And you're like, how do you know?

2:14:01How do you know that?

2:14:02Well, you're so confident that you're applauding.

2:14:04Well, it's because of what I've heard.

2:14:05I've heard it so many times.

2:14:07Of course I believe it.

2:14:09That's what's twisted about it.

2:14:10It's just, well, it illustrates the power of what we're dealing with.

2:14:15Yeah. And once you get it by thinking through the vaccine story, I mean, you've,

2:14:20you're ruined now, my friend.

2:14:24Because once you get it about vaccines, then you see it everywhere.

2:14:29Well, I had Suzanne Humphreys on who wrote that book, Dissolving Illusions.

2:14:34And that book is a must read for anybody who wants to really understand the

2:14:39history of vaccines and what really happened in terms of the end of pandemics and

2:14:45the introduction of these vaccines, like what actually took place.

2:14:49Yes. Oh, that, that. And, you know, there's the whole thread of, of how prevalent

2:14:55lead was in the population, in the powdered wigs and so many things that we

2:15:00had. And then when they got rid of the lead, that was concurrent with the

2:15:04onset of widespread vaccination. And so the loss of life associated or the improvement in

2:15:11loss of life and birth outcomes associated with getting the lead out of the population,

2:15:16well, that's ascribed to the vaccines by the people that are busy marketing vaccines.

2:15:21And likewise, all the work associated with water sanitation and all of that.

2:15:29No, that's all true. The first time I, to credit what credit's due as a

2:15:33vaccinologist, the first time I really encountered that logic was Candace Owens had me on

2:15:41years ago. And she said, you know, we've done this deep dive and we've looked

2:15:46at this thing and these, these infectious diseases go down before the vaccines come up.

2:15:51And yet we're told this narrative.

2:15:53Right. And of course we're told this narrative.

2:15:56Yeah. The polio one's the nuttier one.

2:15:59Because when, when people are so concerned about polio and polio vaccines and we've cured

2:16:05polio, we, they're going to bring back polio if they stop the vaccines.

2:16:08When I tell them what percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic?

2:16:15And that most people think like none, right?

2:16:18It's 95 to 99 % of polio is asymptomatic.

2:16:24And then you find out through Suzanne Humphrey's work that they were spraying DDT ubiquitously

2:16:30all over the country at the same time.

2:16:31Absolutely. Silent spring. And it gives you the same exact symptoms of paralytic polio.

2:16:37And then subsequently the actual first infections that started occurring in this country were occurring

2:16:43in rural areas where they spray DDT everywhere.

2:16:47Yeah. So one of, so there's, if I can kind of throw another log on

2:16:54the fire on that narrative, one of the cool things that I'm getting to see

2:16:59from my perch at the ACIP is people working at the cutting edge of modern

2:17:05genetic technology investigations about cause and effect and genomic effects.

2:17:11And one of the things you...

2:17:14We talk about this rare incidence of paralytic polio or myocarditis, okay?

2:17:22Myocarditis is rare with the vaccine and yet it happens at a significant rate.

2:17:27It happens more in certain populations than other populations.

2:17:30This was heresy at first and now they were forced to admit it and stay

2:17:34tuned later in February. But there's a group that had a big grant to look

2:17:44at genetic links associated with risk factors for this.

2:17:48And strangely, halfway through their program during the Biden administration, all their funding got caught.

2:17:53But they still made a lot of progress and they kind of limped along with

2:17:57volunteer stuff. I mentioned the genome costs, 300 bucks a genome.

2:18:02So these guys have gone through and they've identified seven genes that represent high risk

2:18:08factors for myocarditis after vaccination.

2:18:11Myocarditis after vaccination, by the way, was a major side effect associated with the smallpox

2:18:15vaccines or one of them.

2:18:18It's been associated with vaccines for quite a while.

2:18:21We just kind of haven't heard about it and it's particularly bad with these.

2:18:24But one of the – trying to continue my theme of it's not all dark.

2:18:34One of the things that's coming out is that if we commit to it and

2:18:38do the research like Team Kennedy is committed to doing, we may well be able

2:18:45to detect those people that – the genetic characteristics of those people that might have

2:18:50been at higher risk for, say, paralytic polio or myocarditis so that we can have

2:18:57genetic tests and you can have that test and determine whether you actually have that

2:19:03risk factor. It looks like because of the dynamics of clinical research and epidemiology in

2:19:09infectious disease that this kind of application of genetic diagnostic technology may give us whole

2:19:16new insights into those small populations that had those rare events.

2:19:22You know, we know the big picture in COVID and COVID vaccination, post -vaccination syndromes

2:19:30of the high -risk individuals with obesity and elderly and basically people with a high

2:19:35inflammatory set point. But now we're getting down into some of the nuances and I

2:19:41think that that's – you know, I talked about some of the dark sides of

2:19:44biotechnology. But there are some real, you know, bright sides that offer hope.

2:19:55And what will happen as that kind of starts to roll out is that manufacturers

2:20:03and academic surrogates and others are kind of not going to be able to continue

2:20:11to hide behind these narratives that they have promoted now for decades because the true

2:20:18-true is going to come out.

2:20:20It is going to come out.

2:20:22Is it going to come out during this administration?

2:20:24No. To do long -term follow -up studies are going to take a decade.

2:20:28That's the unfortunate truth and that we're going to have a lot of grief around

2:20:31that. How come you haven't already fill in the blank?

2:20:35Right. But it's going to happen.

2:20:38And that is another big plus of what's going on right now kind of behind

2:20:45the scenes at HHS. Hopefully, they get a chance to still do it after the

2:20:50midterm and they don't get hogtied.

2:20:54But I'm optimistic that we're – these narratives that have been promoted, these false narratives,

2:20:59we're going to be able to break them through doing actual science if we're allowed

2:21:04to do it. And this new technology is particularly with sequence analysis and identification of

2:21:15risk correlates. The intersection between sequence analysis and epidemiology is going to really open up

2:21:23new understandings about what's going on in human disease.

2:21:25I'm absolutely convinced what we do about it is that's a whole other kettle of

2:21:31fish. I mean we can do the science until the cows come home.

2:21:34The public policy part is wicked hard.

2:21:40But at least there's some positive developments.

2:21:45Yeah. That's what I want to say is – Some bright light at the end.

2:21:48There is all this dark stuff and we have to allow ourselves to see it.

2:21:57You see it and you get the reaction like you did.

2:22:00I don't want to see that.

2:22:02That's too much. It's too overwhelming.

2:22:05It's too scary. But we look away at our own risk.

2:22:11And we have this tendency to say it's all dark.

2:22:16You know, we have these individuals.

2:22:19I mentioned Yuval Harari, you know, believing that man is God now.

2:22:25We no longer need God.

2:22:26We have become gods. We have become as gods.

2:22:29Does he actually say that?

2:22:30Yeah. Really? Well, isn't he talking sort of metaphorically about our technological potential?

2:22:37I don't know. I don't know how to discern the meaning of – He's a

2:22:42very demonized guy. He says a lot of dark stuff.

2:22:45And I think – so you probably read the book.

2:22:50Did you interview the author of – Yeah, the Sapiens.

2:22:53Did you read the author of Dark Aeon?

2:22:56No. No, I've never read that either.

2:22:57So that's talking – What is Dark Aeon?

2:22:59This is talking more about kind of the Silicon Valley culture that's pushing transhumanism and

2:23:06how integrally it's become involved in this space.

2:23:14I mean what – I don't have – I don't pal around with Elon and

2:23:19– not to say he is or whomever you want to talk about in that

2:23:22space. That's – that's not my pay grade.

2:23:25But my understanding and – And I read these things.

2:23:30Maybe they're also – maybe that's also propaganda, that a lot of these people of

2:23:35let's say the Bill Gates cast and the younger ones associated with that would –

2:23:40are advocates for a world in which they are able to upload their avatar consciousness

2:23:48in a digital space and live forever.

2:23:51That's Ray Kurzweil, right? It sounds like you know more.

2:23:55I mean you're the UAP guy here, which by the way is another fascinating domain

2:24:03that I'm learning more about.

2:24:05It's bizarre. That's a rabbit hole.

2:24:07You go down and like, oh, this isn't empty.

2:24:10This is not an empty rabbit hole.

2:24:11There's a lot of money behind this and it seems like there's been a lot

2:24:14of black funding and – Business.

2:24:17Yeah. Business. A lot of business.

2:24:19Defense contractors involved. Yeah. It seems like there's some inventions that sort of emerged out

2:24:23of nowhere that supposedly are connected to back engineering programs.

2:24:27So I'm now – I'm now of the belief that there exists a capability that

2:24:39transcends physics as we know it.

2:24:44Let's say Einsteinian physics and is more aligned with Hawking's physics that we can't –

2:24:55we don't comprehend right now.

2:24:57And it has to do with extremely high energy systems and I having – I

2:25:06mean I've had some of these guys because I'm now known worldwide as a nutcase

2:25:11I guess and conspiracy theorist.

2:25:14I've had them on my farm, you know, staying in our guest house and shooting

2:25:21the bull and me trying to understand their world and what they're seeing and what

2:25:26they've experienced and observed and the information.

2:25:32And I'm – there's a lot of different models for what the hell is going

2:25:37on here and maybe it's all us, right?

2:25:39That's one model. It's all us with – Secret technology.

2:25:43Yeah. That's one model for the – what do they call it?

2:25:46Tic -tacs. And I'm increasingly convinced by the logic that there is a physics beyond

2:25:55the physics that we know that is the physics of extremely high energy systems.

2:25:59And in high energy systems, a lot of the rules about motion and transportation and

2:26:11matter and the ability to cross between matter states that is repeatedly observed and reported

2:26:22by responsible people, military folks that have strong disincentives for saying this stuff.

2:26:29And yet still they're saying, that's what I saw, okay?

2:26:33Transmedium devices that can fly and then go underwater as fast as they're flying.

2:26:37No ripples. Yeah. So I – one of the models of that is that this

2:26:44has to do with having some extremely high energy source in a very small package.

2:26:54And is that possible? We're now moving into a new fusion world, right?

2:27:03We're talking about these microfusion reactors that are going to be powering our data centers

2:27:08all over the world, transforming the whole energy, right?

2:27:12I mean there's this logic in crossing over into the economics, Bitcoin or kind of

2:27:19space. There's this logic that it all comes down to energy.

2:27:24Energy is the one thing that fuels economic development and everything around us.

2:27:33And I'm not a physicist but I listen and learn and it sounds to me

2:27:42like these microreactors and the technology that was involved strangely in this assassination.

2:27:50Remember that bizarre assassination in Boston that happened?

2:27:55There was two competing companies.

2:27:58There's something – there's something going on there that's really transformational and if it matures

2:28:06– remember Trump has invested in this in a big way that had to do

2:28:11with him kind of leveraging truth social in a strange way.

2:28:16Remember he – if we emerge into a future within my lifetime probably of these

2:28:30micro nukes as energy sources decentralized, first driven by the tech bros because they want

2:28:39to have their data centers.

2:28:40But then suddenly we have – as that matures and the patents come off, we

2:28:47have the ability to put power generation in very small packages wherever we want in

2:28:53the world. Suddenly the entire landscape of economic activity and the future of humanity is

2:29:00transformed like that. And that's just the beginning.

2:29:03If we push that technology, we may find ourselves in some space where we have

2:29:11the ability to produce extremely large amounts of energy in a very small package and

2:29:18use that – of course it will be weaponized.

2:29:22Use that for a variety of things.

2:29:24But I think the guys that are speculating about these phenomena being driven by the

2:29:33existence of almost point sources of unlimited energy functionally may make sense out of things.

2:29:43that otherwise are really hard to wrap your head around well we're in for a

2:29:49very interesting future one way or another yes yeah and it and it doesn't have

2:29:54to be dark and demonic hopefully not if we let these bastards have their way

2:29:59what does this make a small correction that video i showed you apparently isn't real

2:30:04not a real company made by a berlin filmmaker in 2022 went viral i found

2:30:11it in a new york post article that kind of said it was real um

2:30:14uh but but there are plans to do something i was gonna say which is

2:30:19a little weirder it says at the bottom this is getting confused with a pregnancy

2:30:22robot that was announced in china in 2025 this though apparently also is not real

2:30:27also uh the pregnancy robot is not real yeah it was a they named a

2:30:32scientist that was working on it not a real it's not a real person look

2:30:35at that that's so yeah but but a company working on it nonetheless nonetheless they

2:30:40are working on it yeah that will are i i i we're we're gonna come

2:30:45out so so see if you can find the since you're so good at googling

2:30:49or whatever you're doing um see if you can find the uh images of uh

2:30:55this uh artificial womb and i believe it's a lamb you know we've seen the

2:31:00lamb before but i'm just saying that the the people thing the factory thing yeah

2:31:04it wasn't just oh well that was obviously a i mean that was that was

2:31:07transparent it wasn't even a real company that was doing it it was synthetic images

2:31:11i don't want to give out fake news yeah good okay god forbid all right

2:31:15we might get banned well robert thank you so much for being here i really

2:31:19appreciate it and uh it was nice for you to come back and under less

2:31:23hostile terms in the world it wasn't hostile then yeah no but i think the

2:31:28i think your message was a lot more hostile and it's the way it was

2:31:33received you know like you were received in a hostile way i don't think this

2:31:38one's going to be hostile i think pretty much everything that you said most people

2:31:43are aware of now and then the other things that you're saying they're not far

2:31:47-fetched at all and i think there's a lot more people that are more open

2:31:52to receiving information like that now than ever before and some of it can be

2:31:57attributed to you that's kind um uh let's say to the community yeah uh and

2:32:04of which i am a vehicle have been at times a lot of the stuff

2:32:10that i shared with you back then was the consequence of a community that i

2:32:15was embedded in of others physicians and scientists many of whom were primary care practitioners

2:32:22and i was i was attending weekly meetings with these people and i had frontline

2:32:28knowledge of what they were seeing and experiencing and i had frontline knowledge of the

2:32:34physicians that i was collaborating with uh at ditra of what they were experiencing i

2:32:39was never managing covid patients except myself but i knew what others were experiencing and

2:32:47you gave me an opportunity to get to share their voice through me and i

2:32:53thank you for that it was it was a moment in time and i think

2:32:57we did good uh but by god they came at us it was wild well

2:33:03thank you sir thank you very much i really appreciate you being here it was

2:33:06a lot of fun all right bye everybody you you

#2454 - Robert Malone, MD