The Manosphere Report

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2:38One thing you definitely learn in war that you don't even learn in soft peacetime

2:45in the same way is brotherhood.

2:48It is totally different when you're out in Indian country doing some like crazy stuff

2:53and you either got to protect your boys or they got to protect you or

2:58you would have died except, you know, Bob went over there and did the thing

3:00or vice versa. That's like a level of bonding that was like, I don't know

3:06if there is anything else like it.

3:07But you do reach a point and somebody will do something to you where you

3:11reach a point where you realize that like you actually can't hurt me.

3:15You can't, you can cut my, all four of my limbs off.

3:17You can't break me. That is a, like a weird, like power level that is,

3:23it's hard to describe, but that's a huge gift.

3:26So I was actually a disaster when I got out because I didn't want out.

3:30And, you know, in a weird kind of way to like, I just never thought

3:34I'd live that long. Clay, thanks again, brother.

3:47I know I did it multiple times, but I appreciate you doing this for us.

3:51Um, tell us, uh, kind of, uh, the, the moment where you decided on service

3:59and how you chose what service that you wanted it to be.

4:03Perfect. That's kind of one of those, I was thinking about this a little bit

4:06last night. And part of this, I think for our entire generation is, is honest

4:10to God, it's action movies.

4:11It's like legitimately like Chuck Norris movies, all the cool dudes and all the movies

4:15in the eighties were commando guys of some flavor.

4:18And this is, this is also, I think it had a cultural impact on us

4:22because remember when the VCR came out, all of a sudden we could go, you

4:25could go rent movies. This is something that I think is like totally, it's something

4:29you can't even imagine in the year 2026 we're living at now.

4:32That's right. Because of that, it had an outsized cultural impact on us.

4:35I actually wonder in my darker moments if this was like a shaping operation for

4:39the GWAT. But, uh, you know, I was the same as all the other kids,

4:43you know, Chuck Norris, Delta Force, you know, Charlie Sheen, Rambo.

4:47Yeah, yeah. The whole thing.

4:48Half the thing you read on the back of the book is like, what's his,

4:51or the box of the movie is like, what's his serve?

4:53Like a Force Recon, John Claude.

4:55Like, sweet. All right, we'll watch this one.

4:57So that had an impact, but I wouldn't say that was, you know, all of

4:59it. Uh, second piece was access to, to veterans, which I didn't have a lot

5:05of when I was a lot younger, but enough that it had like an impact.

5:08It rubbed off. Um, there was a distinction between normal dudes and veterans.

5:15Exactly. A hundred percent. Yeah.

5:16Especially the guys that had been to combat.

5:17Yeah. The Vietnam guys. Yeah.

5:19And one of my friends that only lived in our town for a few years,

5:22his dad had done, I think, two tours in the army and one in the

5:24Navy. You want. those weird guys that just kept going back.

5:28And in retrospect, too, that guy probably said some dark shit because he didn't talk

5:31to us a lot about that stuff, but he was just a different kind of

5:34person. The reserve Marine that actually stitched up my forehead and my little sister split

5:39up a golf club when I was like seven.

5:41All right. Just one of my sister's friends' dads, my parents were out of town,

5:46and this is when you didn't have cell phones.

5:48Yeah. She called up Johnny.

5:50I think he was actually still at Marine Reserves at the time.

5:52He came over. My parents drive up as he's sewing my forehead back together with,

5:55you know. Yep. So there was that.

5:57There was that influence. Okay.

6:01Another big piece of it, and I go into depth on this a lot in

6:05an episode with Jocko for like hours and hours and hours, but I came from

6:09a pretty rough background. I came from an abusive home, and when you, especially when

6:15you're a guy that's in that type of situation and your sisters are involved in

6:18that kind of thing, there's not a lot of paths that you're going to go

6:21down that's going to help you fix that.

6:23And one of them is going to be the path of violence.

6:27You can do that multiple ways.

6:29You can become a criminal, all right?

6:31But if you're smart, intelligent, and also you've been influenced by Chuck Norris movies, you

6:35see where the real murder magic is, which is the right phrase for it.

6:39I mean, especially, I mean, even today, we think about like the Vietnam guys, like

6:44those guys are, you know, ghosts in the darkness with daggers, and they kind of

6:46are. That's it, they are, right?

6:48They are. Yeah. So as a young man, especially if you've had it rough, and

6:54I was a little tiny guy too.

6:55This is actually, I think, a relevant point to where I ended up.

6:58I was under five feet tall, and I weighed 95 pounds when I started high

7:01school. Oh, wow. Yeah, which is weird.

7:03It's hard to believe I'm like six foot 250.

7:06I know, I know, yeah.

7:07And I don't think I was over five, six when I graduated.

7:10Okay. Also, we were poor, so I fought a lot.

7:13Between those two things, like that's going to be...

7:16That was the recipe. That was the recipe, yeah.

7:19And always had a pretty good propensity for violence too.

7:22That comes from the background, the childhood, that kind of thing too.

7:25The perpetual necessity to project security or safety.

7:29Correct. Yeah. And also very weirdly makes you able to fight at a much more

7:38adult level, even as like a small time.

7:40I remember one of the first things I got suspended from school, I got, we

7:43were like probably the same age as my son.

7:44It was like seven or eight, like little kids.

7:47And I got jumped by two dudes on the playground and one dude wrapped his

7:49arm. I bit a piece of meat out of his arm.

7:52All right. And of course, these two kids just run off crying.

7:55Like things are totally messed up.

7:57Yeah. And I got suspended for that.

7:59But that was the kind of thing that was already leading me down this path.

8:03So I guess it really was going to go a couple of different ways.

8:05But the biggest one was I need to be good at violence.

8:09And I can see now that there is a profession for this.

8:12Yeah. And these guys really know their stuff.

8:14You can kind of even look at it as like that's the toughest gang.

8:17So you want to be, you want to excel at something, you join the toughest

8:21gang. Right. That's awesome. And so obviously the toughest gang for you came down to

8:25the Marine Corps. That was the one that seemed to provoke the community, the gang

8:34that you wanted to be a part of.

8:35Very much. And, you know, again, late 90s before we had the internet, we didn't

8:40know so many things. I went to every recruiter and talked to all of them.

8:45And this became, it was basically, I would say, Marine culture that drug me into

8:48the Marine Corps first. If you go talk to a recruiter, they didn't even, I

8:51don't even know if they had a SEAL recruiter back then.

8:53Much later in the war, we would have, SOCOM would do the same thing.

8:55Green Berets would send, you know, we'd have guys that were on recruiting duty for

8:58this very reason. Yeah. So back then, if you go talk to the Navy recruiter,

9:01which I know you did, there's some, you know, firemen that, you know, chip paint

9:05one time. And if you have a high GT score, they're like, you are going

9:08to the nuke program. That's right.

9:11We'll give you a little SEAL packet, but you are going to the nuke program,

9:14son. That's right. That's right.

9:15That's right. That was your only option.

9:17It absolutely was. Yeah. And I was in that boat.

9:20I graduated high school at 16 and went to a top 10 engineering school on

9:23a full ride scholarship. Oh, wow.

9:24I had intelligence. So I don't remember what my scores were, but the Navy was

9:28like, we got just the place for you.

9:29Yeah. You're going nuke, son.

9:31Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:32So that was, that was not a fun option.

9:36The Army, especially pre -war was not the same as the Army now.

9:40And again, we're going to have these high speed videos.

9:41They'd be like, well, we can get you some college money.

9:44And, you know, whatever their adventure program was at the time, it was always some

9:48nonsense. Like, yeah. Learn some job skills.

9:50Like, I want some job skills.

9:51I want a very specific job skills.

9:53Right, right. Nobody even really knew what a ranger battalion was back then.

9:58I certainly like the recruiting level.

10:00And to get into SF back then, you had to do four years first, which

10:03if you're 17, sounds like a lifetime.

10:05Like, yeah, it is. Four whole years.

10:06Yeah. So I got, actually got extremely lucky.

10:09And then when I went to talk to the Marine Corps recruiter, he actually was

10:13a force recon guy. Oh, that's cool.

10:14Which is, this is a whole long story about SOCOM ability and stuff like that.

10:19But the Marines were still forcing their guys out to do this kind of stuff.

10:22Every Marine is a special operator, right?

10:26Remember that? Remember that? Yeah.

10:28Every Marine is special. There's actually a crazy story I'll tell you sometime off air

10:32about why we weren't in SOCOM for the first 10 years of it.

10:36Yeah. Because they convinced Congress that the Mew was its own special operation.

10:40Yeah, it was crazy. Anyway, so there's, you know, force recon Johnny in 1997.

10:46So this is so much.

10:47Now I'm talking to a dude that has done this stuff.

10:49He's got, you know, the jump wings and the dive bubble.

10:51And he's like, God. Oh, yeah, of course.

10:54You're like, oh, those other guys are pussies.

10:55Come on, let me show you the thing.

10:57Yeah. And that was it, man.

10:59That was the outside influence.

11:01I was like, these guys seem like they're all right.

11:02Yeah, that's cool. All right, so after you get in, you go through, obviously, the

11:07famous boot camp of Parris Island or wherever you went, and now you're in the

11:13unit. When did the idea of service begin to match what service actually was, right?

11:23How quickly for you? In a weird way, I'm going to be honest with you,

11:30probably never. Okay. I was actually shocked that we got paid in the Marine Corps.

11:35We were making $800 a month.

11:37I was like, you're going to give me money, too?

11:39To do this? Yeah, this is amazing.

11:41Yeah. So I'm not going to say that there was none, but, you know, especially

11:45the Marine Corps are so good at brainwashing, too.

11:47Their boot camp is like the best.

11:48They are the best. They're the best.

11:50You take a Marine private, like, the last day of, and tell him to fight

11:53Chuck Liddell and GSP at the same time, he'll do it.

11:55He'll be like, done. Yeah.

11:56He's going to die in the first three seconds.

11:57He'll try. Yeah, he'll try.

11:59And then if he can get back up, he'll try again.

12:01That's right. Both arms broken.

12:02He'll do it. That's right.

12:03That's right. It's just a flesh wound.

12:06That's exactly right. Yeah. So it was some kind of meshing of service, but if

12:13I'm being totally honest, it was probably like a 20 % and then like an

12:1780%, like, I want to be able to do this thing.

12:19Yeah. And I think probably the weirdest thing about it, if you approach it from

12:23that angle, is what actually got me was not like the ideals of nation and

12:28things like that. It was being in the warrior culture.

12:31Yeah. It was much more about these guys and this, like, brotherhood.

12:35And in a lot of ways, it kind of wouldn't have mattered where we were,

12:38what country we were in.

12:39Right. And that's the unique thing, I think.

12:42And you see, it seems to build on itself, right?

12:46Yeah. And the programming, it builds on itself.

12:49It gets more and more intense as you go from school to school.

12:54Um, when did you have this idea at what, what, how many schools did you

13:00go to and which schools before you got to that space where you're like, all

13:04right, now I, I am a part of the thing.

13:07Like, I'm, I'm, I'm integrated.

13:10I'm in the warrior class now.

13:12For me in the Marine Corps, that was, that was recon battalion.

13:15Yeah. Uh, so the way it works in the Marine Corps, uh, back then is,

13:19uh, you couldn't go straight to recon.

13:21You had to be, uh, I know three, uh, an infantry guy of some variation

13:25first. Uh, there was a couple other ones you could be, but mostly had to

13:27be an infantry guy. Uh, they did have one, uh, in doc right between bootcamp

13:32and infantry school, but, uh, I actually failed.

13:35That was one of the only things I failed my life.

13:37And it was a good thing because something like 99 % of the guys that

13:40pass that and go to the amphibious reconnaissance course, don't make it.

13:43They still have enough experience.

13:44Yeah. Uh, so for me, I went to the infantry, which, uh, was not that

13:49difficult of a time. Um, as I'd always had this idea of where I wanted

13:52to go. So I was, you know, tough and trained up and, you know, it

13:55was no big deal. Uh, took me about a year between some other non -year,

14:01year and a half, year and a half to get, uh, to the amphibious reconnaissance

14:05school, which back then was like the Marine Corps special operations.

14:08I even though we're a part of SOCOM.

14:10That's a long, brutal process.

14:12It was a, like a month of pre -stuff and then a three month school

14:16that's, you know, high attrition rate.

14:17And I, I don't know, some small number of us graduated and that was like

14:21really the first time I felt like I was like one of the boys and

14:23like we're in this warrior culture because we've done this difficult thing.

14:27Right. And that, that's really like this transition of professionalism too.

14:32Big time. Right. That's, that's what I remember.

14:34I remember, you know, the first several courses, even it was, it wasn't until 18

14:41Delta that I'm like, that's a big one in it.

14:44I was like, oh, oh, there's a whole different level of professionalism.

14:50Like I remember we had this Ranger who was just spectacular, like just hard in

14:56every way. And he'd been in like 16 years and, and, and just like, I'm

15:01going to be a medic now, my final few years.

15:03And I was like, and he, everything about the dude was just squared away.

15:08And I remember going, oh, oh, okay.

15:12This is the expectation. It's not just being tough or hard, but it's the expectation

15:17of being a professional soldier.

15:20Right. And what that means.

15:21And so at what point in your career did you begin to embody those, the

15:27warrior culture in conjunction with the professionalism?

15:30What, what stage, what, what part, what unit, where was that at?

15:34And I would really have to say it was for me, it was about a

15:39year into being in recon battalion.

15:41So what we had back then is you would, you would cycle for, for a

15:45MU, because that was what was going on for us in the Marine Corps.

15:48So there was a whole, I think it was a two year cycle.

15:50You, after you're already in recon, you're 0321 MOS, you're a recon guy, you do

15:56six months of like unit training and you do six months of specialized schools and

16:00then six months of MU training and then you go on a MU for six

16:02months and that was just, that was your life.

16:04So as the, the new guy right out of school, we go to essentially what's

16:08like a, like a training platoon for a while until we form a real one,

16:11but that's mostly new guys, but some like super senior team leaders, but they're still

16:15kind of teach us how to be recon Marines.

16:18The next thing that happens is we.

16:20get this like they form our new platoon we this absolute legend of a uh

16:25of a platoon sergeant he's a gunny which is a staff sergeant bill he's like

16:29this is my twilight tour i'm doing this he's got like six combat action movements

16:33he's been in everything from like 1983 wow to the year 2000 like he was

16:38he was just the guy that happened to be everywhere the perfect timing guy yeah

16:43yeah yeah panama yeah desert storm everything serbia yeah yeah the whole thing yeah you

16:49look at this dude stack in 2000 like are you chesty puller right now totally

16:55i remember like i remember the panama guys like when i got to work with

17:00them a little bit there was a dude at team one who was in training

17:03cell and i just got back from 18 delta and was supporting and this dude

17:08was like the patia airfield guy oh yeah and he was like a god right

17:12you know yeah exactly bro yeah but the most professional dude and just squared away

17:18yeah so when that really kind of elevated things for me too now we have

17:21this guy that is like a walking legend all right and expectation professionalism i mean

17:26now it's like if if we were we thought we were pretty decent before like

17:31no this is a whole different thing and uh also then we go through our

17:35school phase and this is probably really where it ended for me as far as

17:39like that that that joint of the two uh i got what i wanted and

17:43uh i got uh marine scout sniper school as part of my my first set

17:47of of schools oh wow and that is that common or uncommon it's pretty uncommon

17:53it's uncommon right marine scout snipers like yes that's the school to get because it

17:58also has a huge attrition rate yeah back then even for recon marines uh in

18:02fact three of us went and i was the only one from recon battalion to

18:05graduate wow uh it's also this weird kind of thing there's like three things that

18:10mattered in recon battalion back then that was having a ranger school have a scout

18:14sniper school and obviously having amphibious recons because that's required to get in the door

18:18right right but if you had both of those other things like you were made

18:20man you were even one of the other two things like you're made out of

18:23gold and uh so yeah i'm like 21 years old and that also kind of

18:28that's the fucking sorry to interrupt like that's the thing like that's the thing it's

18:33not like you're 31 right right you're 21 years old yeah and you're the the

18:40how you're imagining yourself at 21 right compared to what an average 21 your kid

18:47is doing is it's just it's it's not even in the same realm right compared

18:51to who you were two years ago right that's right i was making ramen noodles

18:56in a college dorm and now on paper at least i'm a reconnaissance marine with

19:01a scout sniper kicker on it like well you gotta look in the mirror like

19:04who are you yeah yeah yeah it's weird yeah and that that also kind of

19:08elevated things on a professional because now you're doing some weird stuff uh especially when

19:13it relates to like uh you know door kickers like now you're protecting these monkeys

19:17like yeah you know you're no longer uh a knucklehead with the 60 in the

19:21tree line like you're shooting within a meter of your assault force like all this

19:24it it makes you grow up very very quickly i like how you put that

19:30the because there there is the underlying component as you accept as you seek out

19:36and and accept the growing level responsibility which is life and death right and it's

19:41it's totality but then it's like from that the commitment to that and then the

19:48measurement of trust that comes from the other men oh right right which even solidifies

19:53that that ethos or or the structure of of of the warrior culture or the

19:59death culture whatever you want to describe like it just intensifies that not just in

20:04in the collective but you yourself like now you're carrying those giant burdens right right

20:11100 yeah yeah yeah and twice as much reputation twice as much responsibility yeah yeah

20:17yeah you guys see that same thing as as medics and i so actually i'll

20:21tell you about going to 18 delta course later but same thing yeah it's it

20:24it changes your status in that in that place yeah you know and you have

20:28to live up to that too right i just want to really uh talk about

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24:50So, all right, you've climbed this short period of time, this echelon of performance and

24:57trust and that warrior culture.

25:00At what point did you realize, all right, the Marine Corps was, there was more.

25:08There was something beyond the Marine Corps.

25:11The way I learned that was actually extremely painful.

25:15So, just on this steep rise, and for pre -9 -11, like, there's really not

25:20much else left to do.

25:21No. Like, at this point, even in that kind of status, like, you can go

25:23fail ranger school and you'll be all right.

25:25Like, you're still pretty, yeah, you've still got some other stuff.

25:27Yeah. Or you can go, you'll get the trifecta and you're, like, made out of

25:30gold. Yeah. But, anyway, I'm on top of the world because now I've done these

25:33two things. All right. But this is September, or this is July of 2001.

25:38So, we go do some, you know, ironically enough, CACs, 29 Palms, Desert stuff, come

25:44back, and we are back at Lejeune getting haircuts to the PX on 9 -11.

25:49Wow. So, obviously, nobody knows what the hell's going on at 9 -11.

25:53You know, grunts are out digging five positions in front of the headquarters.

25:56The front gates. Yeah. Like, crazy stuff is happening.

25:59Yeah. And, uh. Dolphins in the bay.

26:02Right. They really were putting, like, water tubes on the beach.

26:04I know. I know. I know.

26:06I know. Yeah. Yeah. That's so awesome.

26:08Right. So, there's, like, a period of time there where nobody really knows what's going

26:13on at all. But, uh, eventually, I think it's, I don't even remember how many

26:17weeks away it was that, you know, they're like, you know, it was bin Laden

26:21in Afghanistan and Delta Force was going to get them.

26:23And so, we're kind of, like, you know, waiting for ours.

26:27Like, what are we doing?

26:28Like, I thought the whole, I thought World War III started.

26:30What are we doing? Yeah.

26:32And then some other stuff starts happening.

26:35You know, 101st is going, you know, like, okay, well, this makes sense.

26:38Like, are there any Marines going at all?

26:41And they're like, uh -oh, this isn't good.

26:44And, uh, eventually, in a pretty short time period, they did bring one of the

26:47mews on, but we knew the guys.

26:49So, like, we talked later.

26:49Like, no, dude, that was, like, a political show.

26:52Yeah, yeah. It was nonsense.

26:53You always got to have the Marine Corps in the propaganda, right?

26:56Exactly. You got to have Marines.

26:57I think that's, like, written into the contract.

26:59It's written into the, any, any waging of war, you have to say, and the

27:03Marines are going. There's weird stuff even that has actually happened with that.

27:08It was, like, documented, like, uh, what was it?

27:10Grenada. Yeah. They let the Marines go because they just lost all those guys in

27:14Beirut. Right. And... whoever the the joint chiefs guy was like you you basically have

27:20to let us have this yeah yeah like the service will dissolve if you don't

27:22yeah but uh anyway back to my stuff so i want to say it's like

27:26a month later it's like october and we're out doing like beach stuff we're doing

27:30a whole amphibious package we're like what are we doing here this is really where

27:35it all fell apart so we have this guy that's like our equivalent like the

27:38bullfrog for you guys uh he's like the the most senior recon marines ever been

27:42for us he was uh pretty pretty confident field commission mag v guy in nom

27:47oh wow and then when the army got rid of all their guys in the

27:50early 80s uh the marine corps actually let a bunch of those dudes come back

27:53in as staff sergeants into the marine corps so the left services left as a

27:56commissioned officer ominous dominus you're uh you're a mag v guy good enough you're a

28:00recon battalion guy now uh so he he comes out to the beach to see

28:04us and he's like all right guys gather around everybody's like you know your pin

28:07drop he's like i've just been speaking with the commandant uh about you know our

28:11piece in the war on terror and uh what i told him is that uh

28:14you guys aren't ready to go to war as as a force he's like speaking

28:19for the entire recon of force recon element i just said that you guys yeah

28:22you're not even close and uh yeah we're like oh my gosh oh my gosh

28:30wow and uh like wow man that's that's uh that's like the atom bomb of

28:37morale right oh yeah yeah like yeah and i mean what else do you expect

28:42us to be doing here but uh yeah it's it's bad we're like oh wow

28:46and really the icing on the cake it actually comes that night so again this

28:50guy's like a retired sergeant made her seem to speak at a couple of our

28:52balls he's like the guy it's like anybody's got any you know i know you

28:55guys got training and stuff but he's got any questions and wants to talk to

28:57me about this personally i'm staying at the base hotel this room number come and

29:01see me anytime oh wow with you know the hair's got yeah five point so

29:08at midnight me and the boys finish whatever we're doing you know putting you know

29:11fake play -doh on the onslau bridge and you know clacking it off or whatever

29:16we were doing uh clean up the boats we're tired and standing whatever hose off

29:21swim with the uh the px grab a you know 24 pack bang on the

29:26door because we want to know yeah if you're gonna tell me that bro you

29:28you're gonna tell me you're gonna tell me yeah dude comes to the door and

29:32he's like hey guys we're like hey you know what he's like what's kind of

29:37late can you come back later and we're like no and that was it over

29:42the next couple days like well clearly we gotta we gotta change services here uh

29:47those were a lot of things that like did he let you in at all

29:50or no no he's just like i gotta go back to bed yeah no i

29:52wasn't serious about that yeah no like no totally like yeah not crushing yeah absolutely

29:57crushing uh over the next couple of weeks this is when we start really learning

30:01things too this sounds insane to say now to kids with like the internet and

30:04stuff even as service guys we didn't even really understand what like socom was back

30:10then this is like a different branch umbrella thing that the marine corps had actually

30:15intentionally kept its guys out of back in 86 when it was formed and all

30:19through the 90s there were still because socom was still getting its legs under they're

30:22still working out who's what who's got the generals all this stuff yeah so you

30:26know force recon was still performing at you know whatever whatever level this is the

30:31first time we got like legitimately crushed and uh we're like oh my god you

30:35know i knew none of this we didn't know any of this had happened and

30:39also if that's our guy if that's our advocate if that's our senior service dude

30:42like most of us were like we're out of here we're done like uh we

30:46had a meet a couple buddies over to fort bragg uh just went to the

30:49seventh group headquarters like hey man you guys got any green berries here and uh

30:53sure enough like one of the staff duty guys came out like hey yeah i'm

30:57bob how you doing how you doing what do you want what do you want

31:00to do like can we can we cross right yeah that's right exactly yeah yeah

31:05yeah and uh it was wild man uh some other stuff happened we went away

31:11after one all this stuff but the damage was done something like 60 percent of

31:16the recon community which is only about 300 of us right uh all walked after

31:20that after that oh my gosh yeah it was it was insane but uh i

31:24ended up back at an sf selection with like seven other recon marines i knew

31:28that i hadn't seen yeah wow okay many years later another recon marine is on

31:32my oda with me that i knew from and uh we met up with his

31:35uh buddy that was at west coast recon marine that was now a buds instructor

31:39you know so doing the handshakes but uh yeah yeah it shattered their their service

31:44but yeah that was what happened yeah it's interesting you know you talk to some

31:49of the other guys or listen to them that were marines eddie gallagher mike sorelli

31:54eddie gallagher's marine too yeah i didn't know that yeah yep and there's a couple

31:58other dudes that i knew that were marines who had been in somalia that and

32:04they're like we're out like yeah this we're not we're done so come we're right

32:08we're rolling and and it's interesting all right so when you went was selection did

32:15it did selection for you represent anything like it did going through the marine corps

32:21stuff in the beginning or was it just you don't you were already professional soldier

32:25you were already part of the warrior class what was the distinguishing difference that you

32:30that you recognized pretty quickly in the crossover it actually there was there were things

32:37that would still stick out for for years after this even up to including like

32:41on my first team in combat like like the like the difference difference in how

32:44things are done uh be huge cultural differences um sf is a really weird animal

32:51anyway it's it's kind of unique in that it's i i've thought about how to

32:57say this many times over the years without like flash banging my guys yeah yeah

33:01but there's one thing that's like never made any sense to me about sf guys

33:04the only s guys are sf guys only and that's that is that the selection

33:10in the school is not that physically demanding and yet you'll see these guys do

33:14things on the battlefield like tie their leg back on if you're getting blue all

33:17this same stuff but it doesn't make any sense why it works uh there is

33:24just something to and god knows how much money they've spent on like the selection

33:28process there's something that they do on the mental side with the whatever you're doing

33:34drawing maps of southeast asia by hand or what taking the the wonder lick test

33:39they figured out something that works that still produces a thing on the on the

33:43back side it's competency for me that's what i really saw i saw i saw

33:49a pretty innate competency in the sf guys and again you know i'm going to

33:5418 delta right a lot of these guys like i was i was we spent

33:57a lot of time i was still shitting buds chow and these guys had been

34:00professional soldiers for years right and there was just an innate competency about how they

34:06manage their time how they interacted with each other how they you know the command

34:11structure right their understanding their greater general understanding of warfare itself and it's like an

34:18older man's mentality which that's right which is honestly what sf was always meant to

34:21be anyway when i look back on it there was a reason that they used

34:24to make you do four years and any branch of service didn't care which one

34:27before you could even go to sf yeah and it probably made a lot more

34:31sense than i than than uh for for what the kind of forces they wanted

34:36to build right right so it was it was weird it was it was in

34:40some ways like having a cheat code because there's certain things from any soft selection

34:43that you already know yeah you've already been you've already been mentally screwed with and

34:46run past your barracks yeah you know yeah you know you can you can aggregate

34:50the pain uh into right into uh a compartmentalized space that it's just it's about

34:58the completion right right i just got to complete this to get to the next

35:02you've already been pushed to your limit you know where it's at yeah like everything

35:05it might still hurt but it's like okay whatever dude yeah as it also makes

35:08it kind of in a weird way like kind of unfair to give a judgment

35:11on because you've already done like it's probably it's honestly the same thing for guys

35:15that have even been to like army ranger school which is brutal in its own

35:17way this is not going to be nearly as hard for them in the physical

35:22aspect yeah now a lot of actually weirdly a lot of those guys still end

35:24up failing because they can't start thinking right uh but yeah there's something very strange

35:28about what they do there yeah yeah that's why i like that book dalton fury

35:32is in you know where people really you know uh explore um the psychological aspects

35:39of q course and selection and all that and it's it's a it's really its

35:44own unique animal it really is yeah did you did you after you made it

35:48through and now all of a sudden you get assigned to fifth group oh no

35:52i was the third that's the third group i'm sorry i'm bad i bet you

35:55get assigned to third group like was there when you showed up what was the

36:02mentality like because you're in the 9 -11 you're in you're through you're you're there

36:07it's a war footing now yeah there's probably been a couple odas that have come

36:12back already well this is it's a very weird circumstance for it because i graduated

36:16the q course in 2005 okay so we're in this weird place of you also

36:21realize like once you once you cross services like not every od has been to

36:24afghanistan yet either like yes it's actually like 10 of them right right right right

36:28right right you know half the groups are still mowing the lawn out front they're

36:32still doing fin right yeah you know that they're like everybody got to go but

36:36me yeah it's like half of our instructors have been to combat and half haven't

36:39and uh but overall it's very professional very well put together thing it's it is

36:44honestly played on like a different level of like what these guys expect yeah i

36:48know there's so many they'll just let you slip through the cracks you want it's

36:51there's not a lot of like the the meanness like there was the marine corps

36:55like three in the morning throwing sand and you know crazy stuff yeah it's just

36:59different and it's more like just show up or don't like we don't really we

37:03don't care yeah and if you don't show up then there's the door right thanks

37:06for coming right yeah so i actually was in the national guard first i was

37:10in 19th group okay so uh we they actually let us graduate early and we

37:14went and met our teams in country so uh that was a kind of a

37:19wild introduction too to like the ss style of warfare uh half my team was

37:24new guys uh we had an old hand first group guys a team sergeant who

37:28they just like pulled out of SOCOMS and works to need to do this specific

37:31thing and he had experience at it yeah um and then a dude there was

37:35a 10th group dude back in like the 80s but this is the other unique

37:40national guardism if you had ever been sf qualified at any point like if you

37:46wanted to go back to active duty you had to go back and take like

37:47the pt test all this stuff national guard just like you gotta tab cool man

37:51whatever here you go so so we've got guys that legitimately haven't been in the

37:56army in like 25 years and it's like okay uh so i'm your senior charlie

38:02those are the guys i ran into i was telling you out last night and

38:06then i ran into these 19th group guys and they were you know training muge

38:10fighters Back in the 80s, you know, and I'm like, and now they're again in

38:13Afghanistan. It is absolutely so.

38:15Yeah, it's wild. I've been running construction company for 20 years, so I guess I'll

38:18handle the barracks. Yeah, that makes sense.

38:22I'm 26. Like, I'm strong.

38:24Like, if anybody needs a pull -up done, I got you, dog.

38:26You know, that's it. That's why.

38:30That's so awesome. All right.

38:31So it starts now, and obviously you get over in country.

38:36And the progression of deployments intensifies, obviously, because now you've got, you're going to combat.

38:46It's no longer theoretical. What do you notice about the shift in mentality with the

38:53guys, the more exposure, I guess, to real -world consequences, real -world training as it

39:03relates to what people are experiencing, the after actions of what, hey, we've got to

39:07shit can all that other training profile that is useless.

39:11Yeah. And we've got to build new profiles based on the urban of Iraq and

39:17all that. It just shifted, right, I would imagine.

39:20There was so much change between, so I saw a little bit when I was

39:24there in 2003 with the Marine Corps.

39:25We did go to Iraq the first time, and then I was back, and I

39:29did deployments in 2006 and 2007, one of which was 19th group.

39:32The next year, I was in the SIF for third group.

39:35There was so much tactical change in, like, CQB.

39:39CQB evolved, like, 20 years in, like, three.

39:41Yeah. Even just knowing or having touched it in all three of those things and

39:45then getting to, like, the SIF level and seeing what they were teaching.

39:48And this was downflowing from especially, like, Delta, you know, who's learning all kinds of

39:53stuff about fighting now. It's like, it turns out that most of what we knew

39:55was trash. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

39:59Man, we had, as even, like, we've been trying to, like, refight Vietnam with our

40:04boots on. You know, we'd never touched a vehicle.

40:06This was a mobility war.

40:08Yeah. We actually had to turn early.

40:11The Army did this, too.

40:12They turned what they called 11 Hotels, which was their Humvee with the Mark 19

40:15guys. Same thing for us.

40:17We had what's called Heavy 31s, which is a very small slice of machine gun

40:20or MOS. We'd never even considered touching a vehicle.

40:24Like, you might jump out and want to pretend it's a helicopter.

40:26That was it. Yeah, that's right.

40:28The box truck helicopter, right?

40:30Yeah. All of a sudden, we're doing this.

40:32You have to have, you can't go anywhere in the desert on your feet.

40:35Like, you know, the reawakening, and I don't know how much of this, because I

40:42wasn't in a place to have done it before, but there was change in this,

40:45too. Humvee, understanding that this is the most important thing.

40:48Whatever signal stuff we thought we developed from, you know, 1965 until 2001, turns out

40:54that we still have to have, like, vast human networks, which was a huge weakness

40:59for all of us. Like, we, most of us had not even bothered with that,

41:02because that was probably one of the few, like, super strengths of SF.

41:06They'd kept that up because of the FID missions and because of the weird stuff

41:09that they do, but all of a sudden, everybody had to have that capability.

41:14So, yeah, it was the Wild West there for a while.

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43:50So at that point, you've now, you've got a ton of experience.

43:55You've been integrated across not only, you know, the Marine Corps, Recon, now you're at

44:01SF, all the way from, you know, from reserve to, you know, third group.

44:06And so that's a massive body of work, I guess, is the easiest way to

44:14describe it. It's kind of not as eloquent as I'd like, but you have this

44:18vast array of exposure on different cultures, but all with under the same foundational aspect.

44:24So when the moment comes for, you know, being done, what was some of those,

44:33what was some components of that decision -making process like, you're like, all right, I

44:38think my career active is over.

44:41What do I do next?

44:43Yeah, that one was rough because I didn't get a choice.

44:45Right. I got medically retired.

44:47Right. So they forced me out.

44:48And this was actually happening to a lot of dudes.

44:51A ton of guys, right?

44:52Yeah. So basically they were going, and I'm sure this was across all the services.

44:55They were having people go back to the medical records and look for a reason

44:58to get rid of you in the second Obama term.

45:02And I'm actually lucky that they got me with that one because they found, you

45:06know, injuries, you know, because about a year later, they did the same thing for

45:09anybody that had criminal. And we're talking dudes that are like at Delta Force, they

45:14got an Article 15 as a Ranger private in 1996, and they're having to answer

45:18for it at Q &P board.

45:19That's right. I remember that.

45:20Yeah. And the bad thing about those dudes is a lot of those dudes lost

45:23retirement. That's right. Yeah. And they went through SF.

45:26I knew a lot of guys that were having to pay very expensive lawyers trying

45:30to defend themselves for, again, stuff that's 20 years old at this point.

45:33Yeah. That they did when they were kids.

45:35Yeah. Chill. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

45:38So I was actually a disaster when I got out because I didn't want out.

45:42And, you know, in a weird kind of way too, like, I just never thought

45:46I'd live that long. So I went down the...

45:48I've heard you say that before, and I always find that, you know, it's like

45:53really a compelling statement because if, you know, if you are free of that burden

46:00of, like, what is my life going to look like at 45 versus 35 and

46:0555, like, it can impose maybe a temperance on how hard you go or how

46:13hard you behave or how deep in the culture you go.

46:16And, like, that seemed to be a freeing thing for you.

46:20Right? But now, all of a sudden, like, okay, you're done.

46:23Right. I would say it was somewhat an advantage because it was not a job.

46:27It was a lifestyle. Like, it was all day, every day.

46:30I could never imagine doing anything else.

46:35But that made it hit all that harder when it was cut off.

46:37Yeah. Because it's weird when it's like that, especially.

46:40It's like, one day you're, you know, Johnny Team guy, and the next day, like,

46:45literally you can't walk in the building anymore.

46:47And, you know, also you retire, like, out of your peer group that way.

46:52You know, most of my boys are still, like, operational, and I'm, like, hitting the

46:57bricks. You're done. Yeah. And it's, it's jarring.

47:00It's extremely jarring. And then you do have to think, like, okay, well, I guess,

47:05what was, I think I was, I guess I was 33 or real close to

47:09it when I got out.

47:10It's like, you know, I'm an old man for this job, but I'm, especially looking

47:15back now, like, I'm a wet behind the ears kid for life.

47:17For everything else. Yeah, yeah.

47:19Which is, is, is an interesting duality there, right?

47:23You know, at, at 33 or 32, you know, your command sergeant major would be

47:31like, all right, Clay, you're in charge of this mission, this op, this thing.

47:35You're running it, you're briefing it, and then you get out and you're like, you

47:38can't get a job at Walmart.

47:40Right, right, Like, your qualifications don't, don't, don't manifest into what they're looking for for

47:46a sales association. Right, exactly.

47:48You know what I mean?

47:48You're like, wait, what the hell are you talking about?

47:51I literally ended up stacking boxes at FedEx, put them on the airplane, yeah.

47:56I could have gone and contracted, but something in me just like, I actually did

48:01do some minor contracting for like two or three years.

48:04I never really wanted to like, really step into it.

48:07Yeah, yeah. And I can't even tell you why.

48:09it shifted by the time you were getting out.

48:11It was really different than back in the heyday of those early days when you

48:15were still running and gunning, so.

48:16Yeah. Yeah. So, and I think also part of it was me trying to like,

48:21like if I'm, okay, I'm going to make a hard break from this life, I'm

48:23going to make a hard break from this life.

48:25And, yeah, that's difficult. Yeah, I'm sure.

48:29It's very difficult. Painful, too.

48:31Yeah, yeah. Obviously, we're going to, you know, we'll talk about the grander context of

48:39current times and the idea of service now based on everything you've learned, you know,

48:46we'll do that in that group setting.

48:48But the final question I have for you in this kind of profile piece is,

48:53as you look back on your service, you know, what were the most beneficial aspects

49:00of your experience? Oh, man.

49:05And again, it can be, yeah, It can be, comprehensive like as a father as

49:08a man as a husband or all those things one thing you you definitely learn

49:14in in war that you don't even you don't even learn in soft peace time

49:19in the same way is brotherhood uh it is totally different when you're out uh

49:24in indian country doing some like crazy stuff uh and you know you either got

49:29to protect your boys or they got to protect you or you would have died

49:32except you know bob went over there and did the thing or vice versa that's

49:36like a level of bonding that was like i don't know if there is anything

49:40else like it maybe like a like parent -child relationship but there's nothing else that

49:46well the thing about the parent shot you're willing to go in all for the

49:50kid but the kid doesn't know how to go all in too right right taking

49:53your axe and be like i got him daddy he starts hacking surprise all of

49:57us me the bad guy in him like what yeah sorry bro yeah so it

50:01is almost like a one way but that that that sends the willingness to go

50:06all in for that other person yeah so yeah so the the brother piece is

50:11huge i mean that's number one the second thing that i'll say that i really

50:15learned i learned so much about myself and i learned once you realize that like

50:22you actually don't have any physical limits it takes a lot to push you to

50:25this point but like once you realize that like you will shatter your body to

50:30achieve something or you will go on long after you should have died or your

50:35coal or your whatever the thing is i think this will happen to all soft

50:40guys like you do reach a point in and somebody will do something to you

50:44where you reach a point you realize that like you actually can't hurt me you

50:48can't you could cut my all four of my limbs off you can't break me

50:51uh that is a like a weird like power level that is uh it's hard

51:00to describe but that's a huge gift yeah also uh and it's not even like

51:04it's like you know power power it's like a personal power uh a personal empowerment

51:08that i really don't think anybody else can can like really understand wow that's awesome

51:13you know i think i think that's what young people in particular young men are

51:19searching for right that that feeling yeah right whatever that feeling is is that sense

51:25of power the sense of camaraderie or belonging right right to something deeper and something

51:31that's right that's uh uh built upon a structure of something that's that's higher that's

51:38bigger than you right which is yeah which is the success of the team right

51:43well i mean you know it's it's weird things too about like being a part

51:46of any one of those any one of them like i was never going to

51:50fail the q course because i'm carrying the reputation of all these recon marines that

51:53made me over here like it could have been 10 times where i still would

51:56have done it like i'd crawl through broken glass like you would have had to

51:58killed me in that son of a bitch to make me stop yeah so there's

52:02there's things like that it's not even just all the combat stuff it's like that

52:06i'm part of this now right and that's honestly the weirdest thing about i'm actually

52:11sure this is true for all soft guys too the minute you get your hat

52:13or your badge whatever the thing was you went from being like i wanted to

52:16achieve this so badly right in that moment the switch flips now i have to

52:21uphold this that's right and that's for the rest of your life that's awesome thank

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David Rutherford Show: Violence, War, Brotherhood: The Making of A Green Beret | Clay Martin