Are Psychedelics the Key to Living Forever? (ft. Bryan Johnson)
3/26/202638 mincomplete
0:00Brian Johnson, thanks for being here.
0:01Yeah, it's good to see you.
0:02How are you feeling? Maybe just share with us what you did a few days
0:04ago. Yeah, I did 5 -MeO -DMT, which is the most powerful psychedelic on the
0:12planet. It's somewhere between 5 and 10 times more powerful than DMT.
0:17And so, yeah, it's been 48 hours.
0:21I'm still learning how to talk about it.
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0:54Before we get into your experience, why did you choose to do it?
0:58Two things. One, mostly as a longevity experiment.
1:01So when I started this project five years ago, the approach we had was go
1:05through all the scientific evidence ever published on health and longevity.
1:09Try to find the interventions that have the best evidence for effect size.
1:15And we just went down the list from top performing on down.
1:17So of course, you start with exercise, nutrition, sleep, and you work your way down
1:23to things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and sauna, and then rapamycin, metformin.
1:28And so we never actually had on our radar psychedelics.
1:32They were always either an ancient medicine being used in ritualistic practices, or being pointed
1:38at things like depression and anxiety in certain trials.
1:41But it was never understood as a rejuvenation protocol, something that was for anti -aging.
1:46And so we found a preclinical evidence in mice on psilocybin.
1:49We thought, that's interesting. And so we did the world's most studied, the most quantified
1:54experiment doing psilocybin, three doses at 25 milligrams of psilocybin.
2:00Which are pretty high doses.
2:01Yeah, it's a clinical dose, a very, very close to a hero dose.
2:04And we found that we think it's a longevity therapy.
2:08Let's get to that data in a minute.
2:09But then you decided to try 5 -MEO this weekend.
2:13Yes. Walk me through the experience, because you televised the whole thing.
2:17It was live streamed. You looked amazingly calm going into it and going through the
2:23process. Walk us through your experience.
2:26Yeah, I think those who have done 5 -MEO would probably relate with me that
2:31it feels like an impossible task to explain what it's like.
2:36So that caveat said, I'll give it a go.
2:40I'm stunned. Absolutely floored. Speechless.
2:45You basically experience raw consciousness and raw intelligence.
2:52It's this, so whatever, when I say these words, take these words that I commit
2:59to you, take that idea, multiply it by a thousand, and then move out infinite
3:03depth, infinite width, width and depth, and then dimensions.
3:07And like that gives you kind of like a rough map of like the size
3:11and space that you deal with, and it was incredibly hard, because you get blasted
3:19into this space that is so foreign, you don't even know what's happening.
3:22It happens very quickly. Like you inhale it.
3:24I did 9 milligrams of intramuscular, and then 18 of vaporized, and it hits you
3:31within 10 seconds. You're just out.
3:32You're out. And so, but what happens is you, you get in that space and
3:38then. visual changes very very little visual uh like you see on dmt it's a
3:44very visual you'll meet the you know like the elves or whatever else this is
3:48not a visual experience but you you get in this world and you lock in
3:54to basically you either panic because you feel like the gates of hell are going
4:00to open that the the cut the stream of existence is going to just tear
4:05you to shreds it's going to shard you and if you give up like break
4:10your brain yeah you feel like it's going to like threaten your sanity like is
4:14it going to chop you up into little pieces and so in that moment you
4:17have to say do i try to wrestle this and i i need to just
4:21like wait it out until it's over or you just relent you say yes and
4:27you have to in that moment you have to say yes so thoroughly you have
4:32to release all attachment all preconditions all want all desire you have to release self
4:39ego control you just have to just relent entirely and then when you do that
4:45it opened up this unimaginable bliss and euphoria and i i begin this like a
4:54v1 of trying to explain this but if i list out the the most dynamic
5:02experiences i've had of a human you know uh like certain accomplishments or getting married
5:08or having a child or overcoming a difficulty or like you know state your list
5:12of things this is without question the most dynamic experience i've ever experienced as a
5:19human does the internal chatter the internal monologue of the ego turn off does so
5:25you can't hear yourself speaking how do you rationalize what's going on if you don't
5:29have a dialogue going on it's this visceral feeling like you're you're hyper aware of
5:35what's happening it's not like you you block out in the first like we think
5:38of very high dose you don't really know what's happening the first few minutes but
5:42then you kind of come to and you're hyper aware of everything it's not visual
5:45but it's this um you're in the depths of existence like this it's just the
5:59most majestic experience achievable by by intelligent life i just can't imagine anything more miraculous
6:10miraculous you've studied the biology the biochemistry what goes on in the brain as this
6:16molecule hits your neurons yeah i mean like it um i mean one it completely
6:23dissolves your default mode network describe what that is so like um it's this is
6:29the engine that constructs self and ego and so as you ruminate you know like
6:34you're going through thinking through your day what's next exactly how am i feeling yeah
6:38what should i be doing right now constant conversation yeah do i feel bad about
6:41myself do i feel you know like i am i shy am i like do
6:46i feel bad about whatever like you're doing this rumination stuff uh kids don't have
6:49this rumination loop their default mode network is is quiet and as you age you
6:55basically build up this default mode network into more stiffer patterns and so as you
6:58age your experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow you have these big ruts that form
7:04and so you can just see people in their patterns like how open a child
7:07is to say like very random things and as adults you're just very you're shut
7:10in like when i did psilocybin one of the reasons why why we did it
7:14is because it does have this effect you where it dampens the default mode network.
7:19And we could pick this up with kernel, the brain interface.
7:21You can see how the default mode network weakens.
7:24So basically I think of the brain like a globe with airports scattered about and
7:28you have certain traffic patterns like New York to London.
7:31You have a certain number of flights every day.
7:32That's like a very strong connection.
7:34But New York to some small town in Arkansas has a very low traffic map.
7:41And so when you do something like psilocybin, it basically takes the airports, picks them
7:46up and they're repositions around the world.
7:48So it's just all scrambled.
7:50So the traffic patterns aren't the same.
7:52And then over time - The neurons don't physically move, but the activity shifts around.
7:57Exactly. The neurons are a little bit more random than they normally would be, which
8:02arguably drives neuroplasticity, causes those neurons to reach out for new connections.
8:07And when new connections are made, new behaviors, new ways of thinking emerge - Exactly
8:11right. Coming out of these therapeutics.
8:13Is that a fair way to describe it?
8:14Exactly right. So you look at my brain on psilocybin from Kernel, you see my
8:17patterns before, like the New York to London connection.
8:20You see my brain afterwards, and it's exactly what you said.
8:23New patterns are emergent. The old ones have quieted down.
8:26It's like a new map of connectivity.
8:29And so we saw that happen, and that does generate a lot of neuroplasticity.
8:32And obviously this neuroplasticity rewiring these connections in the brain is what allows trauma victims
8:40or folks that have a certain wiring that they keep repeating in their brain, which
8:44causes the trauma and the anxiety in their lives to get rewired.
8:47And then that trauma and that anxiety feels like it dissolves or melts away.
8:51Is that a fair - Exactly right.
8:52Yeah. Yeah. And so this has been documented in psilocybin.
8:56It's kind of well understood.
8:57How did you connect that psilocybin data to an effort in longevity?
9:03Or was this just like a random idea?
9:04Let's try it out. Yeah.
9:06It was. So we saw some mouse data that it had these effects.
9:09It also showed reduced inflammation.
9:12So we said like, this is interesting because most longevity therapies do something with inflammation,
9:18right? Like inflammation is the killer.
9:19So if you can lower inflammation, a very good sign.
9:22If you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes down those
9:26big ruts, that's also useful.
9:29What we found in psilocybin though, is it had, we found a first in human
9:32observation. It had this metabolic reset in the brain where my blood glucose before this
9:38was in the top 99 .5 percentile of all the population.
9:42Okay. After it went to the top 99 .9 percentile.
9:47Like to move my blood glucose from that level is very, very hard.
9:49But basically like, not like metformin where you're doing something on blood glucose.
9:53This just had a reset across the body.
9:55Also changed my microbiome. So we saw full on effects.
9:58So then we said, okay, if that had that consequence, 5 -MEO may have some
10:03similar characteristics. And so no one had done this in 5 -MEO before.
10:06Exactly. So there's like, there's potential, there's some animal evidence.
10:10Um, but it's the, the, the similar dynamics of like, can you take the brain
10:15and can you basically like smooth out the barnacles that accumulate and 5 -MEO DMT
10:21compared to psilocybin? Like just absolutely like blasted clean my default mode network.
10:28It felt like psilocybin dampens it, like it softens it.
10:31But this thing just annihilated my default mode.
10:34Turned it off completely. Yeah.
10:36It just, it just doesn't run the same way.
10:38Like for an example, like, uh, this morning I woke up, uh, catching myself laughing
10:43in a dream. I have not laughed in a dream.
10:47I didn't, I don't even know when I've ever laughed in a dream, but that
10:50is I, after I woke up, I was like, that's really weird.
10:52Like, I don't remember laughing.
10:53I looked it up and like, that is a characteristic of it.
10:55child right and so you are restored to this childlike state and i mean the
11:00past couple days i have felt childlike you know yesterday morning i felt that you
11:07know that emergent excitement the bubbling of like today's so exciting i'm gonna do new
11:12things i'm gonna have new experiences um that you're just excited about all things i
11:17haven't felt that i don't even know when you know for so many years so
11:20like it really was um profound on every layer and i see and i'm stumbling
11:25through this i don't even know how to talk about it yet during the day
11:28you're hanging out you're walking around is your brain having the same normal chatter that
11:33it did before or do you think that there's a persistent change in that default
11:37mode network yeah definitely a change like with i was with my partner kate yesterday
11:41and we um i did something that made her upset and so like in that
11:50situation you know like when when couples are in that moment you have like this
11:54negotiation how do i sort this and it all just became so clear to me
12:00like when children have a fight you have it out and it's just like done
12:04yeah and you move on but then adults take that and they like package it
12:08up like they want to weaponize it be like i got something on you right
12:11i'm like move it i'm gonna move the chess pieces and like try to leverage
12:13this and um or they stored up like a snake in one of those things
12:16that pops out all the things later you know it's like package it all up
12:19exactly yeah and so like we had this and i i just felt um absolutely
12:24like no need to escalate or to defend or to like it was just easy
12:32and um it was a breakthrough in our relationship where i was able to communicate
12:36with her in a way and so it's like laughing in my sleep it's how
12:40i deal with my partner when i walk around i just feel so much i
12:43uh i feel so much more funny you know like my ability to make quips
12:48that are just immediate uh you know like so yeah i just feel renewed as
12:54a person in a way that i just really didn't imagine have you tried hallucinogenics
12:59before you started your longevity path a couple of years ago yeah and did you
13:04do that recreationally or therapeutically it was mostly therapeutic in that yeah i i'd sold
13:10my company branch of mo i got a divorce i left the mormon church and
13:14i was trying to remap like what is life who am i what do i
13:18do so i was in that rebuilding stage where i just dabbled of like you
13:22know i did i did ketamine at kernel so one of our first studies at
13:24kernel is we said ketamine was a up -and -coming therapy for depression and we
13:30posed the question what happens when you do ketamine and so we did the world's
13:34most extensive measurement of ketamine with kernel before during and after and so that was
13:38interesting like and it had some kind of you know transient effect but that's like
13:42a a like a little league relative to 5 -mo and so as you've gone
13:48through this maybe share a little bit of the mri data that you're gathering and
13:51the other data mapping neurological effects yeah and tell us a little bit about what
13:57you've learned so far nothing i have my subjective experience to share but we we
14:01have a structural brain mri we have a functional brain mri we did kernel which
14:06is like an optical interface and then i did real -time eeg capture and we
14:10should just talk about i think it's important structural you can see the the physical
14:16brain functional you can see the activity in the brain so neurons firing and neurons
14:21that are not firing yes right yeah and then electrical actions that are measured by
14:26a electrical device so we basically like wanted because the brain is very so we've
14:31had a lot of success rejuvenating my heart and my lungs, and muscle, and body
14:35fat. But rejuvenating the brain is very hard.
14:38And so this is why this is such a promising therapy.
14:42So we wanted to look at the brain through every modality possible.
14:45We wanted to look at blood flow, structural, molecular, the wave pattern form.
14:50So it's a very high fidelity quantification.
14:53And so we'll see where the data comes out.
14:56I'm very excited, yeah. You did this on psilocybin as well, right?
14:58You mapped the brain over time.
14:59What did you learn there?
15:01It's a dramatic restoration of youthful brain patterns.
15:05Yeah, right. Yeah. And what comes after 5 -MeO?
15:12I mean, how far do you take this?
15:14Yeah. Honestly, I am so encouraged by psychedelics.
15:24In the community where I hang out, psychedelics have always been understood as, it's like
15:29a retreat, or it's like a ritual, or you go to like do various explorations,
15:34but never in the world of longevity.
15:36It's never been understood as that thing.
15:38And now after seeing the data, now I am, and of course you have to
15:44be very careful when talking about psychedelics because they're extremely powerful.
15:48It's not like, go out and do them, everybody, right?
15:50It's like, it needs to be done properly with a licensed professional.
15:54It needs to be done carefully.
15:55The person needs to be in the right state.
15:56Like it is not to be taken lightly, but I am more interested than ever
16:01in psychedelic compounds. They're just uniquely powerful.
16:04There's some arguments to be made that psychedelics can induce permanent psychoses.
16:10Yeah. Cause functional changes and drive some people that might be predisposed into schizophrenic states.
16:17That's right. How did you get over those risks?
16:20Because for a lot of people that would turn them off to trying psychedelics and
16:24it's not a non -zero percentage of people that suffer these consequences.
16:28Yeah, I agree. And also people who have really bad trips that leave them scarred.
16:32So it's, it really is.
16:34And I think in part of it is what could be contributing to this is
16:38people who, for example, who have tried magic mushrooms.
16:42You know, it's in a social situation.
16:45Someone's got a bag. Like you pull out some mushrooms.
16:47It's like, yeah, like ways blank and they pop it in, but they have no
16:51idea what kind of mushroom strain they're eating.
16:52They don't know what the dose of psilocybin is.
16:54So it's like unquantified, unsupervised, wrong set and setting.
16:59And so much of it, I think you can, the risk persists, but I don't
17:03think we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should to make it safe.
17:08And so it's not to say that we can solve for the safety issue for
17:10all people. Some people just may not be the appropriate candidate for it.
17:13But I think if we do create a safety structure around it, they could deliver
17:18the benefits people want without, you know, with less of the risk.
17:22But definitely I agree with you.
17:23Like it's, again, it deserves all the caution in the world.
17:27Do you think it's like neurogenic, neuroplasticity, trauma resolution?
17:32I mean, what is the way that this is going to be allowed to become,
17:35call it a medical therapeutic that can be more broadly trialed and then eventually figure
17:41out how to bring it to people without it being, carrying all the risks and
17:45burdens that it does today?
17:46I mean, if I just subjectively compare my experience with 5 -MeO to having a
17:52better diet and exercising every day and sleeping well and doing the sauna and doing
17:58hyperbolic oxygen therapy, this was more efficacious than all of them in terms of the
18:06reset of me as a human.
18:07It just is incomparable. And I guess I'm really left...
18:12I meant for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact now like how long
18:17will it last what's the decay curve like you know will I find I I
18:21become the former Brian within 30 days 60 days I have to repeat this again
18:25I don't know but it really is you know you when you sleep well you
18:28feel great you exercise great but like nothing like what 5 -MeO did in terms
18:33of of like the reset of me as a human so let's just talk about
18:36the consequences outside of the physiological which is life yeah there are lots of stories
18:43and friends that I have that and people that I know that have tried a
18:48heavy psychedelic like an ayahuasca or something they were the CEO of a company and
18:53then they quit their company and they go off to the jungle leave their family
18:56divorce their their partner um make such dramatic life changes because their perspective has been
19:03shifted so much that they re -evaluate what matters in life to such a degree
19:08that they give up a lot of the things that mattered before yeah in the
19:12wake of that there are people that feel they're a victim of that behavioral shift
19:18the investors in the company the employees the family members etc yeah can you just
19:24talk a little bit about those broad risks because we've seen it and I'm and
19:28I don't know if you've seen the same but friends that have kind of like
19:30said I have this new perspective I'm giving up my life I've seen the same
19:34thing and I um one investor told me that he even put it in the
19:39deal docs that you know if we invest you're not going to do these psychedelics
19:43because they wanted to minimize the risk profile it's a thing in your deal in
19:48an investment in you no I just spoke because I've been doing this uh people
19:52bring this up as a topic of conversation right and so they say like I
19:55see you're doing this for longevity but you know like I've seen so many examples
19:59where people put money in then you lose the founder like they're off they're gone
20:05everyone's high and dry and so they were telling me that they put into deal
20:09docs that they can't do this for the duration of the company and so it
20:14is a thing and you know I I have nothing to say about it other
20:17than I know it happens um also I would say that most people in the
20:23tech world that I'm familiar with again they've done this in retreat centers or in
20:28social environments it's not quantified it's not set in setting it's so it's a different
20:33thing but I will say like you know I I guess me as a person
20:37what I'm trying to focus on I came back even more motivated to do what
20:43I'm doing now uh I don't have a desire to go off in the woods
20:47you know and like and live that kind of life it it emboldened me to
20:51work on these things but no question about it you you do have a dramatic
20:55shift in perspective and it's very hard it begs a very important philosophical question who
21:01am I yes if I'm defined by my experiences it roughly equates to my neurons
21:10are wired in a way yes that's a consequence of my experiences and if I
21:16go in and take a drug and in a few hours rewire all my neurons
21:19am I the same person yeah what makes Brian Brian you can maybe recall some
21:24memories of Brian prior to taking the psychedelic but Brian as a person has been
21:30rewired yes are you a different person now and what does that say about are
21:35we ever a persistent person yeah right yeah your question is spot on probably the
21:40most dramatic reconstruction of your 60 plus trillion cells than anything you can do in
21:47life yeah like maybe like a near -death experience you you know, would maybe be
21:52close, but it's a dramatic rewiring of you as a human.
21:55Your values can change too.
21:56That's right. And you could judge the values pre and post, right?
22:00You could judge values ascribed to you by a religion or perhaps values ascribed to
22:05you by responsibility to family members, children, spouses, partners, what have you, you abandon them
22:12after you go through this change.
22:14So your values have changed.
22:15Is it right or wrong?
22:16That's right. I think it's another important question that comes out of all this.
22:19I agree. And like, you know, like you now think about that.
22:21That's through the frame where the world changes at a certain speed.
22:26Now you take the world where it's changing faster.
22:29So we now know that it's hard to predict what's going to happen two weeks
22:33from now or a month, right?
22:34Like things are changing very quickly.
22:35And so now you come up with this practical question, can humans change fast enough
22:42in the world where AI is the dominant engine of innovation?
22:46And so in that case, you may want psychedelics as your ally to say, as
22:51a human, I'm struggling to move with the change.
22:54Yeah. And so there's potentially where it flips from a liability to an asset where
23:00now I do want that restructure changing, even though you have some tail risk of
23:04like, maybe my priorities will shift.
23:06I think you have profound what I would call psycho flexibility.
23:10And I think most people don't.
23:12They have either a disinterest in changing who they are overnight, or they're fearful of
23:18the ramifications or the experience and that they wouldn't go through it.
23:22How far would you take it?
23:23Would you wire yourself up to a neural link or neural enhancement device that would
23:28give you the ability to have information on demand and maybe change your personality and
23:33capacity as a human through an implant?
23:35Would you consider doing something like that?
23:36You would. Would you consider a transgenic system where you basically take a plasmid, which
23:43would then express a set of proteins in your body and change gene expression profiles
23:47and cells in your body and basically could rewire you as a different person?
23:51Yes. Yes. Is there a limit to what you would try?
23:53Interesting. Where do you think that comes from?
23:55I think I find it to be the most exciting configuration of life.
24:01The ability to play on the frontier.
24:04Novelty and expedition and challenge.
24:08That's really my... Did you always have it?
24:10Or are you responding to childhood suppression of those?
24:15It's probably an overcompensation of trauma response, like most things are.
24:19And so as a child, I lived in a very structured religious environment where things
24:24were cemented. Like here's the story.
24:26Here's the plan. Here's what you do and what you don't do.
24:28Yeah. And so yeah, maybe it's probably just I'm now flipped in the opposite.
24:33Yeah. And so I mean, that's probably true that I really...
24:36I don't trust my internal generation of reality.
24:40Yeah. I know I'm always making things up.
24:41I've got 188 chronicle biases like all humans do.
24:44So I'm just, I'm generally suspicious of all things all time.
24:49And I don't take myself very seriously.
24:50So I just find the frontier play space to be like...
24:54Right now, I mean, you know, what you're doing in building a company is like,
24:56you just open up a toolkit and say like, what can I build?
24:59And how do I modify?
25:00And so I agree with you.
25:02I do have a strong proclivity towards openness to play.
25:06Do you find that you've been challenged in maintaining, I would call it external responsibility
25:11as you explore and enhance yourself so much do you give up the responsibility to
25:16others around you who maybe are dependent on you or in need of you?
25:19Yeah. I have three kids.
25:20And so I do think about them a lot.
25:25And being a father is a really important thing to me.
25:28And it's an important part.
25:29my identity and so that has not changed so i've never uh vacillated on that
25:33or changed my disposition towards that for those around me i guess fortunately i have
25:39a a social group that just says go and play there's there's really no one
25:44in my life that tries to claw me back there's no velcro yeah it's just
25:48all encouraging and so that i guess i feel very fortunate that everyone around me
25:52and they're willing to take the risks i mean this is like when i sat
25:55down for five meo my partner kate like she's got a ton of risk like
26:00what if it goes poorly what if i change my perspectives what if something bad
26:03happens so well one could make an argument that taking that degree of risk where
26:07something could have gone wrong the people around you are enabling versus being supportive right
26:13that's right i mean yeah that's a consequence but let's shift topics to other uh
26:20modalities for longevity yeah what else is on the horizon so you've had this profound
26:25set of experiences with psychedelics you've documented in a very extraordinary and exquisite fashion all
26:33of the other things that you've been doing with interventions are there other things that
26:35are on the horizon yeah that you're either excited about or that you're considering yourself
26:39yeah i mean two of the ones that we've spoken about cell therapy and gene
26:42therapy yeah yeah they um they're all in the pipeline so they're not ready yet
26:47we've we've knocked out all the stuff you can do today like we've gone through
26:51it all done it all um the next gen therapies are just not there yet
26:55so we're looking at mitochondrial rejuvenation i think that's incredible i think mitochondrial augmentation therapy
27:00and there was a paper i saw where in order to get the mitochondria in
27:04the cell they coated the mitochondria in effectively a red blood cell envelope which made
27:09it more transportable into cells and less uh attacked by the immune system exactly which
27:14is incredible and i i'm a big big big believer in this this this course
27:18of therapy i mean it's gonna be a whole therapeutic modality that no one has
27:21even recognized i agree we have our first uh mitochondrial therapy lined up so how
27:25are you gonna do it you're you're like 99 .9 you need someone who's like
27:2948 .7 to try the mitochondrial i agree particularly like you know i think they
27:35tried it in parkinson's patients yeah alzheimer's patients that's where you can really see profound
27:39shifts in in uh certain metrics for you it's like 99 .9 to what like
27:44yeah you know i have the mitochondria you know of a 48 year old right
27:47so like what what if i what if yes you could go to your sibling's
27:52child because the mitochondria is passed maternally yeah so it's in the it's in the
27:57egg cell yeah so it's the mother's mitochondria so if you go down the mother's
28:00line maternally if you have a sister who has a kid they're gonna have very
28:05young mitochondria you can take a little blood sample and then grow their mitochondria extensively
28:09and use that as a biological match to you this is a perfect extension i've
28:14had a blood boy as a son yeah so now i'm just gonna go to
28:17the extended family and be like guys it's a it's a family project yeah family
28:21yeah exactly yeah well that one's super interesting and we also have one that we're
28:25doing um i've i'm now building sorry are you gonna do your own mitochondrial transplantation
28:29you're gonna build a bioreactor are you using working with one of the third parties
28:32that are a third company yeah so i'll get i'll do a blood draw in
28:35the next week or two they'll spin up and they'll do it yeah okay yep
28:38so you're gonna get your mitochondria which have some you know the problem with mitochondria
28:44as you know is mitochondrial dna degradation over time right it accelerates for certain people
28:49but that way if you go back to a young person you have young mitochondria
28:52exactly then you're gonna multiply yours out yes and probably select a little bit or
28:56exactly healthier ones yeah right okay and then sort of back it's very i mean
29:00exploratively like we don't know uh we're one of the first they're they're in phase
29:03two now do you sprint yeah i do so you could probably you're in phase
29:07two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're in
29:07phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're
29:07in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think
29:07you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you
29:07think you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do
29:07you think you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now
29:07do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two
29:07now do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase
29:07two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're in
29:07phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think you're
29:07in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you think
29:07you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two now do you
29:07think you're in phase two now do you think you're in phase two Or if
29:07you did it intramuscular, like mitochondrial therapy, you could sprint and see your score.
29:11That's a great idea. Yeah, thank you.
29:13Yeah. That would be a great way to measure it from rather than just a
29:16basic biomarker perspective. Be really interesting to see.
29:20Yeah. Sprinting is one of the most underappreciated longevity therapies.
29:23Yeah, I don't do it.
29:24Oh, man. I've got the age of a 74 -year -old, roughly.
29:29Sorry. No, no. Yeah. Probably.
29:32Yeah. I'm definitely not keeping track with you.
29:35Would you consider or have you looked at any plasmids where you take a gene
29:39as DNA, put it in your body, and then that gene makes a protein in
29:43your body that does something?
29:44Like the one we were looking at in the FOXL3 expression.
29:46Yeah, exactly. So the mesenchymal stem cells, it packaged up with the FOXL3 delivery.
29:51That showed that over 50 % of tissues getting that rejuvenation.
29:54It's unbelievable. It's the best demonstration in the entire world.
29:57That's perfect for tissue regeneration.
29:59Like as a particular application set, tissue regeneration using that sort of system seems like
30:04a no -brainer. It's safe, right?
30:07Yeah. Yes, I reached out to that Chinese professor.
30:10I'm really interested in seeing it replicating.
30:12I would love... You reached out to the Chinese professor?
30:14Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. We sent that paper back and forth.
30:17Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
30:18That's awesome. Did he respond?
30:19Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Good. So I'd love to do that.
30:24I'd love to actually build it ourselves.
30:26Yeah. But that's like a two -year project.
30:28So... AI can help make it fast.
30:30That's true. Yeah. Actually, that's true.
30:31AI as a project manager for these sorts of programs is...
30:34You know, that's true. We spoke about this six months ago.
30:37Yeah. Things are so different.
30:38So different now, six months later, and in terms of setting that up.
30:41So that was cool. So I think that's a good option.
30:43But also I'm doing Brian Johnson organoids.
30:45So we took my IPSCs.
30:48We now have them... Induced pluripotent stem cells.
30:50Exactly. So you took your cells, turn them into stem cells.
30:53Yep. Yeah. So now we're doing in dish.
30:54So now we have like a Brian Johnson heart, liver, lungs.
30:57And now we're going to try molecules on me and in dish.
31:00So you have a plot.
31:01So let me just walk the audience through this.
31:02So you take cells off of your skin or something.
31:04Blood. Blood. And then you put these Yamanaka factor proteins on those cells, causes those
31:09cells to become stem cells, which means they can then turn into any other cell.
31:12Yeah. And then you put other proteins on them to turn them into a heart
31:14cell or a eye cell or what have you.
31:17And now you've got a store of these tissue -specific Brian Johnson cells that you
31:24then use for... Like you can say, okay, what if you get Brian Johnson blank,
31:29you know, drug? What happens?
31:31Is it good? Is it bad?
31:32What are the side effects?
31:33In the petri dish, you put the drug in there.
31:35Exactly. See what happens. Yeah.
31:36Okay, got it. So you can simulate all these experiments.
31:38So now you get the advantage of time, of acceleration, of like what to take,
31:42why, what dose. That's awesome.
31:43What combatorial things to consider.
31:45Yeah. And so we have the organoids stood up.
31:47We haven't done our first takes yet.
31:48Yeah. So that's interesting because now I have to do this old school methodology, like
31:52put it in my body, wait to see what happens.
31:55Is it good? Is it bad?
31:57What, you know, how does it affect everything else?
31:59Yeah, totally. That's a good one.
32:00But I mean, I don't know.
32:01We'll see. It's cool in concept.
32:03I mean, TBD, if it actually works.
32:04So we'll see. Have you tracked any of the alternatives to Yamanaka factors, the factor
32:09discovery work that's going on?
32:11And do you think there's anything worth testing at this stage?
32:13Yeah. I'm an investor in New Limit.
32:14So I've talked to them about where they're at.
32:18Blake and Brian's company. They've done, I mean, they've made remarkable progress.
32:22Yeah. They figured out how to computationally solve the discovery process.
32:27Yeah. And so they're much faster than they initially thought.
32:30And so that's very encouraging.
32:31You know, the big challenge with Yamanaka factors is always dosing.
32:34If you overdose a cell, a one cell, that cell can become a cancer cell
32:39and take off as a tumor.
32:41Yeah. So the sensitivity that you need to have to get the right number of
32:44the factors. There's a problem.
32:45There's - which is a protein into the cell needs to be perfectly tuned.
32:49So I have a theory that this will end up being solved by cellular switches
32:53that will end up putting machinery into the cells that can turn on or off
32:58the protein synthesis at the right dosing based on the measurement of gene expression in
33:03the cell. That's my theory on where this will end up.
33:06That makes a lot of sense.
33:07Any other control mechanism will be inadequate.
33:09That's right. All you need is one error and you're in trouble.
33:12But it is the most profound, I think, technology that humanity is dealing with today
33:17besides AI. We're not quite there with fusion, which I would argue is probably a
33:20distant third, but it is very powerful if it's possible.
33:23In the future, I think we'll look back and we'll see GLP -1s as the
33:27first big drop. Yeah. Like, what?
33:29I can just inject myself and it solves hunger.
33:31Totally. And then the second will probably be something like New Limit or one of
33:35these plasma -based FOXO3 therapies where it will show real -life dramatic changes.
33:42Yeah, totally. And then humanity will shift as, like, longevity being a vision of sci
33:47-fi, you know, rich people pursuit to, like, something that is truly jamming.
33:52Go back to, like, the conversation on the temptation towards socialism, right?
33:56Like, if you can feel robust in your ability to pursue life and be healthy
34:02and vibrant and in control, I think these things would have dramatic changes in society,
34:08not just in health, but, like, everything.
34:09Well, any form of abundance, whether it's abundance in food, in energy, in housing, in
34:13mobility, in lifespan, the more abundance people get, the happier they are.
34:17Yes. And the more you're improving abundance in the world, the better we are going
34:22to live as a group of people together on planet Earth.
34:25Exactly. Yeah. The happier we will all be with each other.
34:27I think, like, honestly, like, a lot of the - External conflict only comes from
34:31internal unhappiness. A hundred percent.
34:33And so if you look at the general malaise of, like, American society, like, no
34:36wonder things are shitty, right?
34:39Like, you've got met - Eighty -four percent of people have metabolic disorder.
34:42Over 40 % of people are obese.
34:44Like, we're just in really poor health.
34:46Nobody's sleeping. Everyone's on their phone.
34:47Totally. We have mental health issues.
34:48Like, no wonder you have the proclivity towards these kinds of outcomes.
34:53Like, so if you could get the health in check, it changes the psychological decision
34:56of you, your community, your country.
34:58Like, you have much more of a can -do attitude.
35:00Like, I can take on the world and I can do hard things.
35:03Totally. But when you're not feeling well, like, it's just everything is just so much
35:06harder. Yeah. One hundred percent.
35:07And so in light of all of these new therapeutic modalities and these new opportunities
35:11that seem to be biologically proven and have these profound effects, why continue to tinker
35:17with psychedelics? Like, are they as profound or are they a compliment?
35:20Or, like, how do you think about fitting all of this portfolio of things that
35:23you're looking at together? Yeah.
35:24I mean, I guess the question is, I forget on the FOXO3 study, I don't
35:28know if they saw brain rejuvenation.
35:29Didn't see that. Yeah. I did not see that.
35:31And I don't, I don't remember.
35:33I mean, it is a very complicated organ.
35:35Yeah, exactly. And it's insane.
35:37It's very hard to reach.
35:38You know, you can grow muscle tissue back and you can grow skin tissue back.
35:42And it's kind of like, okay, I grew a little X.
35:44Like, if you grow the neurons back maybe in the wrong way, like, we don't
35:49know. Yeah. Because it's never been done before.
35:51Yeah. So, understanding the consequence of neuroregeneration is like.
35:57So, I wonder, like, if the role in my play, like, you know, maybe psilocybin
36:01and 5 -MeO won't be, you know, meaningful for, like, basic functions of the body.
36:08But maybe it's the outperformer in youthfulness of your disposition towards reality.
36:18Like, one thing I'm apprehensive about is, I'm 48.
36:21And so, as you start climbing to your 50s, 60s, you do really narrow.
36:27Your ambition goes from I can do anything to start narrowing down further and further.
36:32And I worry about losing a youthful disposition of a can -do attitude of anything
36:39is possible. And maybe that's the role of psychedelics is you just get a wash
36:44of like the snapback of like I can and I can bounce.
36:48That definitely been the case for me.
36:49So I think they do probably play a really important role of like they're probably
36:53a set of things that for certain people that will basically like, I mean, I
36:59felt like it was like 30, 40 years of psychological rejuvenation.
37:08Like, you know, it's like to transform me back to a childlike state.
37:10That is insane. I don't get that from the sauna or from eating well or
37:13from sleeping well. Like I'm still, so it's just unique.
37:18Yeah, amazing. Well, listen, I'm gonna go drink alcohol and eat carbs and stay out
37:22late. I don't know. What are you gonna do?
37:24Yeah, I'm gonna go to bed on time.
37:26Yeah, I'm gonna do my wind -down routine.
37:28Yeah, you do you. Yeah, you as well.
37:31Enjoy it. I appreciate it.
37:32This has been great. Brian Johnson, thank you.
37:34Thanks. Yeah, that was awesome.
37:35That was great. I'm going all in.
37:51I'm going all in.