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3:06You guys are probably all seeing this kind of landmark decision with Meta and Google

3:11where they have to actually pay damages because they are, I guess, I guess essentially

3:18being found guilty of affecting a child's mental health and therefore things that happened in

3:25this child's life. And I honestly, I will tell you, you all have heard me

3:29talk about social media in the past.

3:31I really feel as a parent, this is something that is going to be a

3:36part of their life. And there's a lot of responsibility on mom and dad, too.

3:39I think this case is very interesting because obviously they've been found liable of something

3:46that they've done here and they're having to pay damages.

3:49Now, we don't know if this will hold up an appeal, but I just wanted

3:52to kind of dive deep into what does this mean?

3:55How could this go for companies like this?

3:58And at what point do we say we can definitively say that someone's mental health

4:03was affected by one particular thing instead of like a variety of different things that

4:09happened to you throughout your life?

4:11How do you know one thing is responsible?

4:13So we brought an expert in.

4:15She is an expert in mental health policy, and she's also at the Manhattan Institute.

4:20Her name is Carolyn Gorman.

4:22Thank you so much for joining me today.

4:23For having me here, Tudor, and it is a big case.

4:27And I'll give you the highlight, the top line of your last question.

4:33We're never going to know, at least we haven't yet so far, when one thing

4:38causes a mental health challenge.

4:40So definitely a very nuanced decision that has some upsides and some downsides.

4:47So I think you're looking at it in exactly the way we should.

4:49Well, so that is, and I don't mean to be, you know, I'm not like

4:53a huge fan of the social media platforms by any means.

4:57I certainly think that there is this addictive factor that is a part of it,

5:01and I've seen it happen with adults.

5:03I see it happen with kids.

5:05But, I mean, I see the same thing with potato chips.

5:08You know, it's like there is an addictive factor built into a lot of products

5:12that are sold. And at what point is it our responsibility to say we have

5:16to kind of, like, force ourselves off of this?

5:19I think there's a couple things going on here.

5:21First of all, we know that there are...

5:23are a lot of kind of complex problems around mental health and that oftentimes you

5:29have one problem associated with another problem.

5:33So the causality here, the direction of the causality is not necessarily clear.

5:40We don't know if the underlying mental health condition is sort of drawing someone to

5:48these platforms, if the platforms are exacerbating the situation, but I think just to be

5:56clear, what the case found was that, so it was a jury and a personal

6:04injury trial, and they found, this is in Los Angeles, they found Meta and YouTube

6:09liable for negligence and for failing to warn minors about the dangers associated with their

6:16platforms. And so, yes, essentially the jury decided that the plaintiff who believed that, alleged

6:29that she became addicted to apps like YouTube and Instagram, that the kind of design

6:35of the platforms were the types of things that were addicting her.

6:39The jury did ultimately agree with this and they decided that negligence of these companies

6:47played a really substantial factor in causing her mental health harm.

6:52I mean, it's interesting because I think there's a few different trials going on right

6:56now. This was one of them and this was, as you said, it was based

6:59on really how the product is built and how the product kind of pulls you

7:04in. And the other one I feel like is the content that is actually on

7:08the sites and there's potentially been content that has driven some people to be convinced

7:15to commit suicide and things like that.

7:17And they're saying like that content should be policed.

7:19We've had some situation, I know there was a situation a few years ago in

7:23Michigan where there was, where the kid was being kind of told he had to

7:29pay money, extorted, like because he, they had convinced him to send a picture.

7:33So there were some dangerous things going on on their platform.

7:37And I do feel like if your platform has things like that, there should be

7:40some way to police it.

7:42Again, I struggle with the idea that I guess I understand giving them the warning,

7:49like potentially saying, just so you know, this is how this is built.

7:52This is how you can get sucked in.

7:54But I do think we live in this world where we have to force ourselves

7:58off. But we do have a situation where we're almost kind of constantly forced back

8:02in because even the schools do have devices in schools.

8:06Like my kids get a Chromebook.

8:07Other kids at their old school, they got an iPad and they were told, find

8:12videos on YouTube. Use this as a resource.

8:14So it is kind of conflicting information.

8:17I think that's exactly right, Tudor.

8:19Of course, personal responsibility is not something that we should give up on.

8:23And it is on parents to make sure that their kids are not using this

8:27technology, you know, too much.

8:30But even the most engaged parents have found this to be a real problem for

8:36exactly the types of reasons that you've said.

8:39And so I think the kind of most positive outcome of these cases is that

8:46it reflects kind of a growing acknowledgement and consensus among Americans that we we recognize

8:53that these online platforms are problematic.

8:56We're using them more than we want them to be used.

9:00And again, far more concerning, they are kind of putting kids at serious risk of

9:05harm. And so I think we can balance personal responsibility with the fact that we

9:12need a little bit more support from something else out there.

9:17And so I think this consensus does seem to be taken or we should take

9:23this as a sign that we government can be involved and should be involved.

9:29So what is the next steps?

9:30Because if if one if one group can sue and they get this money, then

9:35isn't there? I mean, wouldn't you think there could be endless lawsuits behind this where

9:40people are going on? I did.

9:42I mean, I haven't gotten my laundry done like I should because I I've caught

9:46my cell phone. So I'm like, oh, my gosh, I could have just done the

9:49laundry for the last 20 minutes.

9:50You know, we have it.

9:51Hasn't it happened to all of us?

9:52And at what point is this where you're just like, you know what?

9:56My I got fined because my lawn isn't mowed and that's your fault.

10:00You know, like at what point do we how do we stop the loss?

10:03Definitely going to be a difficult problem.

10:05So first, we don't know that these decisions are going to stick in both cases

10:10in New Mexico and in California.

10:13Meta has said that they're going to appeal in the California case.

10:18It is not unreasonable to think that the verdict could be weakened or even reversed.

10:27And that's because there's not a super strong consensus around, again, these sort of causes

10:34of mental illness, mental health and addiction.

10:37And so we've got to wait to see how that plays out.

10:41But liability and the incentive to bring a lawsuit is definitely going to be something

10:50that we should be wary of.

10:52And it's not necessarily going to be something that incentivizes these platforms to proactively make

10:59them more safe. Is there something, though, that came out of the lawsuit where if

11:04they I mean, you talked about they didn't have this these warnings.

11:08Is that something is that like at at a point when you see, OK, well,

11:12if they had this and this, is that the next law that's going to be

11:15passed? Like, does that bill go in front of Congress and like, oh, if you're

11:18a social media company, you have to have somebody click something?

11:22Because I heard someone saying the other day that in certain states now you have

11:26to put before you open any of these apps, you have to put in your

11:29birth date and people are getting really annoyed that they have to put in their

11:32birth date every time to open the app.

11:34And then I think, well, what if you get to the point where it's like

11:37you have to click OK that you've read their policy every time?

11:40I think I mean, if that's what it takes to keep people safe.

11:44But I do think that kind of just also becomes like a numbing thing where

11:47you're like, I'm putting in my birth date and then you're not actually paying attention

11:50to why. It's a box check.

11:52You're you're exactly right. I mean, it's actually literally a box check.

11:57Yeah, right. Yeah. I think it is a difficult problem to solve enforcement.

12:02And so there has to be some creative thinking about this.

12:05But putting some friction between use seems reasonable.

12:11I think there are also kind of unique ways we might think about restriction that

12:16might seem counterintuitive. For one example, we might not want to require accounts to be

12:25set up because then even if someone is underage or young, their data isn't necessarily

12:33being collected. So we're not stopping them from viewing content.

12:38But at least we can kind of protect them in that way.

12:42We can protect their data in that way.

12:44I see. Yeah, that's interesting.

12:46I wouldn't have thought about that.

12:47But I guess that is something that you at this point, maybe it's these lawsuits

12:51kick these things off. And then that's when lawmakers start to go, OK, now that

12:56we've seen how the public feels about this and we've seen how the jury feels

13:00about this, how do we take what has happened in the courts and turn that

13:04into law? Although I think sometimes that also becomes a bit of an issue because

13:11then you never know what government's actually going to do.

13:14It's so true. Again, there's upsides and downsides to everything.

13:17And I think we need to weigh those trade -offs in a very measured and

13:25balanced way. We do know that these platforms are making kids less safe.

13:29In New Mexico, you know, there were a lot of scary examples of children being

13:35exploited. And the jury in the California case really felt like Mark Zuckerberg's testimony was

13:42not necessarily consistent. They, you know, reporting kind of described them as getting bad vibes.

13:50And so these are things that we need to consider.

13:54One thing I heard, I heard that there were some things that they said and

13:59I didn't hear what it was, but I heard reporting where it was like, there

14:02were some things that were said in the courtroom that led people to believe that

14:06they knew they were putting kids in harm's way.

14:09And they were, there had been like chats or maybe it was like email conversations

14:14where the people that worked there were kind of like, yeah, this is really going

14:17to do this, but who cares?

14:18That's right. It sounds like from reporting that Mehta's own research was definitely influential in

14:25the jury's decision. So again, all these types of trade -offs are ones that we're

14:32going to have to face when we're addressing this complicated problem.

14:34But to your, you know, original point of making sure that we're thinking about parental

14:40responsibility, I think that we should not undervalue how much social pressure and social norms

14:50can play a positive role here.

14:52We should think about stigmatizing social media use more.

14:57I mean, we don't say it necessarily, but we all have that friend who posts

15:04a hundred selfies a day and pictures of their salads.

15:07And it's, you know, a little silly or I don't want to say pathetic, but,

15:14you know, we're not looking at it in a very positive light.

15:16We could maybe be a little bit more honest and upfront about that for the

15:21greater good and start, you know, shaming each other a little bit for being on

15:25these platforms too much because.

15:28You know, it's so funny because I've heard people like from my generation, and this

15:32is obviously a different thing, but these, you know, kids now are coming to school

15:36with these furry outfits on.

15:38And one of our friends the other day was like, like, and you think about

15:42this when we were young, there were bullies.

15:44You would never have been allowed to come to school as a furry.

15:47And I think that's, I mean, to a certain extent, you know, that's true.

15:51I'm certainly not a fan of bullying, but I do think, so I will tell

15:55you my kids at their school, somebody, and we don't know who this is, but

16:00there's some account that posts, like if you post something ridiculous on your social media

16:05and it's run by the seniors.

16:07And then if anybody in the high school posts something ridiculous on their social media,

16:12they post it on this school site.

16:15Now it's not sanctioned by the school.

16:17They're not happy about. and it gets passed down from senior year to the next

16:22senior year. But it's funny the way my kids react to it.

16:26They're like, oh my gosh, I can't post anything like that on social media because

16:29it could end up on this site.

16:31Mom, mom, don't post anything on social media.

16:34So they're like yelling at me, don't you dare ever post anything of us on

16:38social media. And I just kind of wonder if this is also new.

16:42And I look at my mom's generation and my mom, sometimes it's like your mom's

16:50the first one to comment on your Facebook story.

16:52You're like, mom, don't publicly comment on my Facebook story.

16:56And you see your parents' generation, they're like putting all kinds of stuff out there.

17:01And then I feel like my generation is like a lot of stuff about my

17:05kids, but now it's starting to get political.

17:08Like my friends are like, my kids played soccer and then the next post is

17:12like abolish ice, you know?

17:14So that's the mix. And then I, but I look at my kids' generation and

17:20they're, all of their posts are very artistic, like, you know, things that I saw

17:24that were cool, but not really personal and not really about them.

17:27And I wonder if they're sort of learning this a little bit on their own

17:30too. I think that's probably right.

17:32And I also, I learned a term from your show actually, sharenting.

17:37Is it sharenting? Yes, I just learned that word too.

17:40And I don't think we've talked about it on here, but I was like, that's

17:43such a good point. My kids hate sharenting.

17:44It is a good point.

17:45And I think we should all just kind of be more aware of what we're

17:48posting and do we really need to do that?

17:52But yeah, maybe kids are learning.

17:54So listen, so explain what that is for people who haven't heard what sharenting is.

17:58And it's also kind of, we're somewhat shaming people of like, don't put your kids

18:03out there all the time.

18:04So from what I understand, sharenting is posting pictures of your kids on you, the

18:10parent's platform. So if you have an Instagram account and you're on vacation and your

18:14kids look super cute in their, you know, athletic beach clothes, you're posting photos of

18:20them. But we don't necessarily know if our children want that.

18:25And also those images are still being put online for them.

18:29They're still kind of being put at risk.

18:32Some of these photos end up on pornography sites.

18:36And so we should be wary of the type of content that we're putting out

18:41there, even if it's something that seems sort of harmless to us.

18:44Let's take a quick commercial break.

18:46We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon podcast.

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19:51Attention, fans of jury duty.

19:53The groundbreaking comedy series is back for season two.

19:56Featuring an all -new cast, this installment takes the comedy out of the courthouse and

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22:10I think it's something that we should do here.

22:12It was like Scottish or it was something from Scotland or something.

22:16They had a thick accent that I seem to remember it being a Scottish accent.

22:20But and I showed my girls because these kids get out of the car with

22:24their parents and the guy that's like pumping gas is like, so are you going

22:29to join the club? And the kid's like, and then the next one's like, your

22:34soccer game was amazing. Like they walk into the store and this little old woman's

22:37like, your soccer game was amazing, Amber, good job.

22:40And then they get to check out and they're like, so did you make the

22:44play? Are you going to be in the school musical?

22:47And it was like, stop sharing everything about your kids.

22:50And it was so scary because I thought, it's true.

22:53I know I see somebody that I, you know, I have all these people across

22:58the state that are political friends, but they post everything about their life and then

23:02they don't really know anything about me.

23:04I see them and I think, I know everything you did last week.

23:08It's a weird thing. I recently went smartphone free for a week to test this

23:13out because I think another challenge here is if we're asking kids to be off

23:19their phones, but we are buried in our own.

23:22It's sort of like, how seriously do we expect them to take us?

23:25And the types of kind of things that I experienced and felt not having my

23:33smartphone on me were not exactly what I expected, but all good.

23:38I felt much more local.

23:41I wasn't driving far because I wasn't using my GPS.

23:45So I was going to the types of places I knew I could get without

23:49having to plug in an address.

23:52And you just kind of have an opportunity to be bored.

23:55And then when you're bored, sometimes you actually do the things that you should be

23:59doing, like cleaning the kitchen or cooking dinner that you've been putting off because you're

24:04doom scrolling. And we as adults are guilty of this as well.

24:09So if we can be off our phones ourselves more, that's going to help us

24:14encourage our kids to be off our phones more.

24:16And we're going to get more of a positive feedback loop.

24:19Again, I don't want to imply that this is easy or even possible because so

24:28much of our lives are really online.

24:31But you do see little communities of people springing up and agreeing, you know, we're

24:36not going to be on the phones.

24:38And Jonathan Haidt really deserves a lot of credit for this.

24:41You know, he's raised so much awareness.

24:43People thought that, you know, we were just going to have to throw our hands

24:47up with the phones. And I think these cases show us it's not true.

24:53We're getting somewhere. So we shouldn't abandon our own efforts right now either.

24:58Well, I also think that we have to somewhat understand how technology is a part

25:03of, to your point, it is a huge part of our lives, how it affects

25:06our kids and how our kids will learn how to use technology to, quite frankly,

25:12just get out of things, too.

25:14I walked into my daughter's room last night.

25:17She's going to kill me for saying this.

25:18I walk into her room.

25:19It was like late, right?

25:21I'm like, who are you talking to on the phone?

25:23And she was like, Mom, I'm not on the phone with someone.

25:26I'm writing a paper. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you're not writing a

25:29paper. You're just talking. And the computer is writing the paper.

25:33Like, she's talking to text, essentially, on her Chromebook, just puts the microphone on.

25:39It writes the paper. What?

25:42Part of me is jealous.

25:43But the other part of me is like, really mad.

25:46I'm like, what are you doing?

25:47That's this is let me define writing for you.

25:50None of what you're doing right now is writing, you know, like, but they they

25:55and then the other night I was with a group of parents.

25:58And the one parent was like, oh, my son has learned to master AI.

26:02And I'm like, oh, how cool.

26:03What does that mean? And she's like, he hasn't written a single paper in college.

26:06And I was like, I'm that's not what I thought mastering AI was meaning.

26:11Like, what do you what?

26:12And she's like, he takes three different AIs and puts all the information into all

26:18three and then mixes the paper up.

26:20And actually, he had special, like a special.

26:23So the teacher came to him specially and said, well, I feel like I should

26:27give you an award. Your writing is so good.

26:29We're so impressed with your writing.

26:31But and she's like, and he's never written a thing.

26:33But I was like, I don't know that I'd share that so proudly.

26:37I think this is actually a very serious problem.

26:40We're laughing about it, but we're going to have to think about this and think

26:44about what education means. And education may look very different in the next couple of

26:51years because it is totally possible for us to outsource our thinking.

26:59And we have to remember that what's easy isn't always good for us.

27:04And it's going to take real discipline.

27:06And again, it may take other solutions, community solutions, private sector solutions, government solutions.

27:14whatever they are. We have to think seriously about how much we want this in

27:19our lives. It does feel like the ball is rolling.

27:24But again, we felt a couple of years ago about social media.

27:28It's game over. We can't do anything.

27:30And we shouldn't give up on AI either.

27:32You know, when I was a kid, it was you wrote your you like typed

27:35out your paper and your computer didn't know you were typing on a paper.

27:39It had no idea what you were doing.

27:40Right. So you had to actually do it yourself and put in the grammar.

27:43There's no grammar check. But, you know, now they all have these Chromebooks or these

27:48iPads that they come home from school with and everything is interconnected and the teacher

27:53can watch you while you're doing things.

27:56But you're still able to do a lot, get out of a lot.

28:00I will never forget. There was this girl who just, you know, did a quick

28:04video on social media. But it struck me so hard because I feel like this

28:08is my kid's generation. She's like whispering at work and she was like, I am

28:12a 22 year old woman with a job and I can't spell.

28:15I do not know how to spell.

28:17And she's like, I'm pretty sure that my little sisters at home, I don't think

28:21they can spell either. And I thought, but that was like my one child spelling

28:26was during the pandemic. Like the critical parts of spelling was when she was out

28:31of school. And she's like, Mom, I don't need to spell because the computer spells

28:35for me. I'm like, oh my gosh, how do you not know how to spell?

28:38How do you read if you can't spell?

28:40I mean, but people can't spell.

28:41I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all because I feel like I can barely

28:44spell. But yeah. See, this is like, but you don't need to spell, but you

28:50do need to spell. Isn't it weird to not know how to spell?

28:53I don't know. I mean, these are new questions we'll have to face.

28:55But I think that there is some benefit to thinking about ways that we can

29:00reduce technology in schools, even when it comes to just doing things pen and paper,

29:07not even necessarily phone bands.

29:10Right. I think you have to think more.

29:12Like you have to really stretch your brain when you're doing things like that.

29:17And somehow I feel like my oldest daughter, she's got like, you know, calluses on

29:21her fingers. I'm like, what are those from?

29:22She's like, I'm writing all day long at school, Mom.

29:24I'm like, oh, how are you?

29:27Do you go to a different school?

29:28Like, how is this possible that you write and your sister is talking to text?

29:32Like what is happening? But I mean, I think part of it is the kid,

29:36you know, because I have, she is like the oldest, you know, and you can

29:40tell there's a difference in your kids.

29:42My oldest is like, I'm going to do everything by the book.

29:44I'm going to do everything right.

29:46My middle child is like, if there is a way to figure it out, I'm

29:49going to figure it out.

29:50And that's my creative talent is to get out of doing work.

29:53Like, you know, I just think that's what she thinks.

29:55And sometimes I look at her and I'm like, that's smart, you know, but I

29:59don't like it. It's like the kid, the AI kid.

30:02I'm like, that's intelligent, but awful.

30:05As with everything, trade -offs, right?

30:07I think being creative and learning how to problem solve is a benefit, but we

30:12also should be wary of things that seem to come too easy.

30:17One of the reasons that I think a lot of young people feel disconnected right

30:22now or feel like they don't have purpose or feel depressed is because we aren't

30:29actually giving any reason for them to feel like they've accomplished something.

30:34And we're very quick to say what's hard and what's uncomfortable and makes us upset

30:42is a negative thing. It's a mental health problem now and not necessarily a challenge

30:47that we need to overcome.

30:48And so I think we need to be more aware of how we can inject

30:54resilience culture and, sorry, inject resilience culture and reject therapy culture.

31:02I feel like I am constantly telling my kids, like, you are meant to feel

31:05miserable sometimes and it's fine.

31:07And I'm like, what is wrong with me that I have to convince them that

31:10feeling bad about something is occasionally okay.

31:14But I think we live in a society where we're constantly like, how can I

31:17make this better? How can I make you feel better?

31:20How can I make you happier?

31:21You know, and if you're at all unhappy, there's a difference between being depressed and

31:25being unhappy about something. There are times I'm unhappy.

31:28I'm unhappy when I walk in in the middle of the night and find her

31:31not writing a paper, but talking a paper, you know, it's like, I'm unhappy.

31:35I'm not depressed. And then if I do get upset about something, they're like, do

31:40you hate me? And I'm like, good grief.

31:42That's no, this is there is discipline.

31:45There are times when discipline is necessary.

31:47And discipline is because I love you so much, you know, but we live in

31:51a society where it is becoming harder for kids to understand that you, there's so

31:57few consequences. I mean, even if you, gosh, there's no consequences.

32:02I think about like, you know, if you didn't get home in time to watch

32:05your favorite show, you're just never going to see that show again.

32:07When I was a kid now, it's like, you can, you can go back and

32:10rewind TV. Like there's like literally nothing you can't do.

32:13When I was a kid, if you had to do a research paper, you'd go

32:16to the library. I don't even know why we have libraries anymore because my kids

32:20have, they're like, what happens at the library?

32:24Drag queens read at the library.

32:25I'm like, that's all they know about libraries now.

32:28You know, I'm like, no, we used to actually go there to do research.

32:31Like, why don't you go on the internet?

32:32I'm like, that's not a thing.

32:34Like, this is what happened, you know?

32:37And I feel like because of that, their lives are so easy.

32:41And it And I do think that life has to you, you have to experience

32:45some hard things when you're young, because the reality is adulthood is very hard, regardless

32:50of the Internet. So if if your young life is very easy, anything hard feels

32:56like a disaster. And then we have everybody talking about mental health.

33:00And before we got on, we were talking about how we have these mental health

33:03clinics in schools now. And I think it's a disaster.

33:06I'm like, the last thing I need is somebody going to my kids and being

33:09like, you, you let me label you here and not at the school.

33:13I don't want them to be labeled.

33:15So I have people there's people in Michigan right now, conservatives in Michigan right now

33:21that are like, we've got to have more mental health clinics in our schools.

33:25Who, why do you want someone you don't know giving your kid advice on what

33:31label they should have as a mental health?

33:34It is really hard to push back on a mental health narrative because no one

33:40wants to come off as if they don't support kids.

33:43But I think we really need to recognize that without giving kids the perspective tutor

33:50that you were talking about, telling them that, you know, it's OK to feel upset.

33:55You don't have a condition if you are sad sometimes or stressed.

34:00If we don't do that, then they do believe they have something wrong with them.

34:04And unfortunately, a lot of our mental health policy and nearly everything that happens in

34:09schools really just drives home that message.

34:13If you feel upset, seek help.

34:16Something might be wrong. It might be the sign of a bigger problem.

34:20Everyone should get therapy. There's nothing wrong with that.

34:23All of these messages are sort of all the messages that we're sending kids all

34:26the time. They don't need to hear that.

34:28All that that's doing is having them diagnose themselves or pushing them towards some formal

34:35diagnosis. Let's take a quick commercial break.

34:38We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon podcast.

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38:01accommodations now for all these things.

38:03So they don't have to take their tests at a normal class period.

38:07They can take extra time.

38:09They can take extra time.

38:09They can take extra time to type papers.

38:12And it's like these kids are getting this pushed on them.

38:16And that's what bothers me about having someone else talk to my kid about mental

38:20health because they have these professionals and they're like, you have this and you should

38:24have an accommodation. So this happened in my family, actually.

38:27My niece was born without her left hand and she's incredibly gifted.

38:31She's in all the AP classes.

38:34And her teacher came to her and was like, look, it's going to take you

38:39longer to type. So you need an accommodation.

38:42And she was mad. She's like, I'm fine.

38:44I don't need an accommodation.

38:46And he went to the school and was like, look, I need her.

38:50I need to schedule her an appointment with the like whatever the person is that

38:54gives you these accommodations. They had someone on staff that would do it.

38:57My sister was really mad.

38:58She's like, are you kidding me?

38:59I get to make this decision like she doesn't want this.

39:02And I give my niece kudos for saying, I got this.

39:06I don't need an accommodation.

39:08But think of the pushback they had to give.

39:11So that's what my concern is.

39:13He was telling her you can't.

39:15And she had to look at the adult and go, no, I can.

39:18I'm fine. It's definitely becoming really problematic.

39:22Of course, we want to make sure that there are resources available for students with

39:28disabilities that do truly impact the way that they learn.

39:33But we should be thoughtful about how we're not necessarily setting students up for the

39:38real world by accommodating very minor things.

39:42And we're not only trying to sort of screen for problems among those students that

39:50we believe may actually have a learning disability.

39:54We're now doing things like universal screening for mental health problems.

40:00We're having all kids fill out surveys multiple times per year that ask them questions

40:06about how they feel, if they've considered committing suicide, how they would commit suicide if

40:14they decided to do that.

40:15There are real serious questions we should ask ourselves about the need to ask all

40:21students this type of information, particularly younger students.

40:25We're asking students this type of thing at age five.

40:31And those students are trying to give you the right answer because they're used to

40:35tests that have a right and a wrong answer.

40:38And I will say, I've heard the kids, I've heard my younger kids talk about

40:41this with their friends. Like, what do you think the right answer is on those

40:45questions? It's not that they're giving their answer.

40:48They're trying to please the person who's giving the test.

40:51Are we supposed to think this way?

40:53Are we supposed to think that way?

40:54How can people who deal with children that age not understand that they believe there's

41:01a correct answer and they're trying to find it?

41:03They're not thinking about how they feel.

41:05They're trying to please you.

41:07I think we really should be, as parents, we should be thoughtful about opting our

41:13kids out of this type of screening.

41:15What parents should recognize is that mental health screenings, even in clinical settings, are not

41:22recommended for everyone, so universally, because they present so many false positives.

41:30Screenings intentionally look at any sign of distress or discomfort through a clinical lens, through

41:37a medical lens. But think about how many times a day we feel like sort

41:40of tired or sort of uncomfortable or not necessarily happy.

41:43That means we're going to capture a ton of kids that are kind of feeling

41:49those normal emotions of human life and consider them at risk of a mental health

41:56condition. If we are not doing this and not recommending this in clinical settings, why

42:03would we want to do this in schools which have less protection, which are, you

42:10know, being administering these screenings with professionals who have fewer medical credentials?

42:17It really doesn't make a lot of sense.

42:20Well, and then what happens is once they've seen somebody like this, and in my

42:25state, we've talked about this many times on this program, once you're 12, your parents

42:30don't have access to your medical records unless you sign them over as your proxy.

42:33So once you have this in your school, if you have somebody telling you, you

42:38know, you're depressed and you need a medication.

42:40I mean, we had this where we had somebody say this about one of our

42:44kids, and then it was a battle to get the psychiatrist to stop calling her

42:48house. I'm like, she's not going to go on medication.

42:51But once they get you into the system, you're almost concerned that the government is

42:55going to come. Like, they're going to have CPS come to your house and be

42:58like, look, you've been recommended for medication.

43:00She now has to take it.

43:02And I talked to your point about the test.

43:05I was talking to the kids about it, and my daughter said to me, but

43:09when it says the question of like, have you felt overwhelmed in the last week?

43:14She said I did because we had a really big test.

43:16And I'm like, but that's not what it actually means.

43:19It's like, I can't describe it to her because she's too young to understand what

43:24they mean by that. Most mental health conditions that are serious and debilitating do not

43:30manifest until late teens and early 20s.

43:33And so most of the time, what we're seeing with kids are...

43:37are just kind of normal problems of living, challenges of adolescence.

43:42I mean, the phrase teen angst we never hear anymore because now it's a mental

43:47health condition. And so we are pushing people towards these clinical diagnoses.

43:53And to your point, Tudor, it is a little concerning, but in many states, the

44:00age of requirement for parental consent is lower for mental health services than others.

44:07And so in states, you might be as young as 12.

44:11Other states, a counselor can provide services if they think a child is mature enough

44:16at any age. And so these are real downsides of trying to bring the mental

44:21health system into schools, which, by the way, aren't even teaching kids how to read

44:26very well. So I'm not sure why we think that they can do this.

44:29That's what I'm like. Could we focus on what's supposed to happen at school?

44:33I mean, certainly that's how we feel in Michigan.

44:35We're 44th in the nation.

44:37The kids are struggling to read.

44:39We are still coming back from the pandemic in many ways.

44:43So, you know, I agree with that.

44:46And I appreciate everything you had to say today.

44:48I think this is, to me, it's very fascinating, but sometimes it's things that we

44:52don't think deeply about how to have those conversations with our kids, but also how

44:57to push back when it seems like Big Brother is kind of coming in and

45:01trying to take over all of the health care for our children.

45:04And I think there's a good balance, but I think it's a discussion that needs

45:07to be had. Because like I said, even when I look at the differences between

45:11how my mom views social media, how I view social media, how my kids view

45:15social media, and how they view all of that technology when it comes to actually

45:21learning, these are all things that we as parents don't have a guidebook on and

45:26we're just kind of figuring out.

45:27So I appreciate, I appreciate everything you had to say today, and I appreciate what

45:31you do. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

45:34Absolutely. Carolyn Gorman, thank you so much.

45:36And thank you all for joining the Tudor Dixon podcast for this episode and others.

45:41Go to TudorDixonPodcast .com, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or you can watch it on

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The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Big Tech Liability, Kids & the Social Media Mental Health Crisis