Wellness Unmasked: Marriage, Birth Rates & Pro-Family Policy Solutions with Kevin Roberts
2/17/202632 mincomplete
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0:29T's and C's apply. Welcome to Wellness Unmasked.
0:33I'm Dr. Nicole Sapphire, and today we're tackling a question that really sits at the
0:38intersection of health, culture, and policy.
0:40Why are Americans having fewer children?
0:43Why are fewer Americans married?
0:46And what, if anything, should government do about it?
0:49Now, I'm sure you remember about six months ago, we had Emma Waters from the
0:54Heritage Foundation, and she actually talked about how that we are seeing fewer babies being
1:00born in the United States, and our birth rate has declined so much that we
1:04are entering a level where we're not going to be able to repopulate over time.
1:08You've heard Elon Musk talk about it.
1:10We need more babies, babies, babies.
1:12But the data is real.
1:14And what we're going to talk about today is I'm bringing on Kevin Roberts.
1:17He is the president of the Heritage Foundation, whose organization recently released a sweeping report
1:23arguing that declining marriage and family formation are what's central to America's demographic crisis, and
1:30that policy should actively address it.
1:33So we're not just talking about the problem.
1:35He's coming up with the solutions, and that's what I like.
1:38I don't want to just hear people complain about something.
1:40I want to go forward with what we can do about it.
1:43So we're going to talk about the data, not the dogma, and what the evidence
1:47actually shows about family structure and child health, where critics say these proposals may go
1:52too far, and how we can balance values with outcomes.
1:55Because in medicine, as in policy, intentions matter so much more than the results.
2:02So let's get into it.
2:03Well, joining us to discuss this very important topic is Kevin Roberts, who is the
2:07president of Heritage Foundation, who was a part of the effort in putting together this
2:12really important report. So Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today on Wellness
2:15Unmask. Well, it's a pleasure, Nicole.
2:18Obviously, I'm proud of my colleagues, but we're also all grateful to you for all
2:21the work you've done over the years to promote these same kinds of policies.
2:25So let's dive right in, because as you said, I've been talking about this for
2:29a while. It is concerning.
2:31You know, there's been a lot of conversation as to people just aren't having babies
2:34anymore. And part of that is cultural, but some of it's economic as well.
2:40In the United States, you know, we look at the birth rates.
2:43And while we're now kind of where Western Europe is with the decline in their
2:48birth rates, we're not quite as extremely low as East Asia, which, by the way,
2:53they had some very intentional ways to reduce birth rates.
2:57We don't have to get into those.
2:58But what do you think here in the United States is the main driver?
3:01Is it a cultural shift or an economic shift?
3:04Well, I actually would, without being evasive, I think I would ascribe equal weight to
3:09those. I think that you have cultural trends across the West, really across the developed
3:13world now, which usually will correspond, that development will correspond with declining birth rates, at
3:19least. In the United States, we've seen, maybe because of some additional social, cultural, political
3:24pressure, a decline in marriage rates.
3:26It's the economic area where you really see those factors in the economy affecting both
3:32of those things, marriage rates and birth rates.
3:34Our claim in the paper is not to be dismissive toward those factors, culture and
3:39economy, but also to say there's another factor that has clearly been proven to have
3:44an impact on negative, a negative impact on marriage and birth rates, and that's government
3:49policy. And so as a right of center policy group, we wouldn't usually look to
3:54government policy other than in this case, we think that we might be able to
3:57use it to reverse those declines.
3:59Well, I mean, that makes sense.
4:02You know, in theory, when you talk about it right now in the United States,
4:05I think our, you know, fertility rate is like 1 .6, which is well below
4:09that replacement threshold. But if you look at some of the European countries like France,
4:15France spends heavily on family benefits, much more so than the United States, but they're
4:20also sitting at 1 .6.
4:22So, you know, how do you, how do you, you know, counter that?
4:26Well, the two points, number one, our thesis is that reversing government policy alone is
4:32not going to fix this, that in fact, you do need to see those cultural
4:36and economic patterns or factors that have gone into declining marriage and birth rates reverse
4:42as well. But we also know, getting to the second point, that the law is
4:46a teacher. In this case, policy can be a teacher.
4:48And so we're, we believe that the cultural and economic trends in the United States,
4:53for example, are more positive as it relates to marriage and birth than it is
4:57in France, that if all you can do with federal policy is eliminate all the
5:02disincentives to marriage and birth, that you might provide a little bit of a boon
5:07to both of those rates.
5:08But the second thing that we would say too, is that if you look at
5:12examples other than France, say Hungary, Israel, to some extent Singapore, there are some positive
5:18examples where those expenditures on incentivizing marriage and birth have worked.
5:23To be really honest, and we are in the paper, of course, the data is
5:27mixed in some of those cases, but it's not wholly negative.
5:30And so what we're arguing is, if nothing else, on almost a pilot basis to
5:34see if this one, changing this one element in government policy can be helpful.
5:38So what are some of those policy disincentives that you talk about in the report,
5:44but also that you are seeing that you think is possibly contributing to the lower
5:47marriage and birth rates here in the United States?
5:49Well, in two big buckets in federal policy, the largest of the two is safety
5:55net programs. And there, since the misnamed War on Poverty of the 1960s, we have
6:01had explicit disincentives in our federal policy in order for women to receive benefits.
6:07For most of that time, the one exception would be the 1990s, when there was
6:11an excellent work requirement and marriage requirement for some of these policies.
6:17We have for 50 or 60 years explicitly disincentivized women with children for getting married
6:22because that would actually have a negative impact on their benefits.
6:27We believe eliminating those would be important.
6:30But the second thing, and this is the new part, this is the second bucket,
6:33is a couple of new proposals we have.
6:35One of them is to piggyback on the great idea of the Trump accounts, which
6:39have been in the news over the last couple of weeks.
6:41And we believe that we, as a society, should actually plus up those Trump accounts,
6:46in essence, by providing additional benefits, $2 ,500, for men and women who get married
6:52by the age of 30.
6:53And we believe that if you increase the marriage rate and you also have some
6:57reversal in some of the cultural and economic trends at a macro level, that you
7:01can see an increase in that fertility rate from 1 .6.
7:04But there's a second new idea, Nicole, that I want to touch on.
7:07We're equally excited about this.
7:09You and your audience may be familiar with the adoption tax credit, roughly $17 ,000,
7:14for the excellent practice of adoption, which we want to continue and expand.
7:18We believe that we should expand that to include births, natural births, for married couples
7:23if they're having children. And we would lower the cost in a single budget year
7:30for Congress by extending that credit over three years, getting into the weeds here in
7:34terms of the policy. But we have really smart people at Heritage who are trying
7:37to weigh all of these details.
7:38And we believe that if we make these two changes in policy, that we'll begin
7:43to see at least a small incremental improvement in both the marriage and the birth
7:47rate. Those are both actually very, very interesting.
7:51I want to go back to the first one, the incentives for encouraging marriage by
7:55the age of 30. I would imagine that you, from the critic side, you would
7:59hear if the incentives are encouraging earlier marriage, how do you prevent higher divorce rates
8:04later on? And is there even data on that, whether you get married earlier or
8:09later, you know, regarding divorce rates?
8:11There is data on that.
8:13In fact, the paper looks at that very thoroughly.
8:16This is a 150 -page paper.
8:18So we try to look at this from every angle.
8:20We took three years to do the research on this, which is a way of
8:24complimenting my colleagues for their work.
8:26But to your point, you might think that there's more data which would suggest if
8:31you're incentivizing people to get married earlier that there's going to be a higher divorce
8:35rate. We actually have a lot of data in the paper which would point to
8:38the opposite. And so what we're not trying to do is, you know, create some
8:42strange artificial incentive for people to get married who shouldn't be getting married.
8:46And the reason, to the point that you imply in your question, that we would
8:51like to have earlier marriage is because that's going to have an increase in the
8:54birth rate, given the relatively short window for maternity for women.
8:59Well, as a physician, obviously speaking, our bodies as women were created to have babies
9:05when we are younger. So when you actually are having older women having babies, that's
9:10when you're starting to see higher risk of maternal but also fetal complications.
9:14So I, for one, am for marriage and having children at younger ages because I
9:19believe that that's truly how biologically we are created.
9:22But here's a question that I have for you regarding the incentive for people to
9:27get married earlier is, is there evidence that delaying marriage is the problem or is
9:33it economic instability before marriage is a problem?
9:36Because we're seeing a lot of people who are waiting to get married these days,
9:39because we're seeing a lot of people who are waiting to get married these days.
9:40And there's a myriad of reasons.
9:42A lot of it has to do with women wanting to be professionals, be out
9:46in the workplace. Hello, I'm a full -time practicing physician.
9:49I'm one of those women.
9:51But I also think that we are in a state of economic instability and people
9:55are, these women or even men too, are graduating college and economically, you know, they're
10:01still living at home. You see people living at home longer than ever before.
10:04So in parallel, should we also, should specifically the federal government be working on how
10:10can we make people more economically stable so that they are wanting to get married,
10:15not just relying on credits to get married?
10:18Well, 100 percent, you know, both of those trends, the cultural ones you outlined, which
10:22are good things, which is that women like yourself who want to be full -time,
10:27in your case as a physician, of course, these are good cultural trends.
10:31But they have had an impact on at least the age at which women are
10:36wanting to get married, or some women at least.
10:38But the economic side is really important too.
10:40And so what we're saying in this paper is that while we focus on some
10:44policy solutions at the federal level, and we'll be releasing some subsequent papers that focus
10:49on similar state -level policy.
10:50solutions, that if the government, as the current presidential administration is doing, is also focused
10:56on all of those factors that go into the affordability crisis, then that is going
11:02to be an additional boon for this.
11:03I just want to put a real fine point on that.
11:05I hear this, of course, anecdotally, not just from my own children, but also from
11:09the preponderance of heritage colleagues who are under the age of 35, but the data
11:14bears this out too. If you look at two industries where, and one of these,
11:19of course, is really important to you, the healthcare industry, where essentially the third -party
11:23payer system has artificially increased costs, we have a similar phenomenon in education, especially higher
11:29education. We believe that if the administration and Congress continue their reforms in both of
11:35those, obviously they've made more headway with higher education reform, that you're beginning to eliminate
11:40some of those factors that go into the delaying of marriage and to the phenomenon,
11:45as you said, of postgraduate young people in their 20s coming back home to live
11:51because they literally can't afford rent.
11:53I mean, even contemplating a mortgage is completely out of the question.
11:57So that's a way of saying that there are five or six or seven factors
12:00here, and we're encouraging policymakers to put their hands on all of those levers.
12:05Obviously, on the cultural and social ones, those are in our control as individuals.
12:09And if enough of us start making the same kinds of decisions, then we're going
12:13to see those patterns reverse as well.
12:14You're listening to Wellness Unmasked.
12:16We'll be right back with more.
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12:48T's and C's apply. You know, you self -admit that Heritage Foundation, you yourself are,
12:56you know, to the right of center.
12:58And so if we want some of these policies to not just be adopted and
13:01piecemeal when a Republican's in the White House, but to be continued to carry on,
13:05which is, you know, what we would need for our birth rate to go up,
13:08it has to be more bipartisan.
13:10So for the critics who argue your proposals, you know, implicitly favor traditional gender roles,
13:16you know, how can you, you know, make the messaging to be supporting women who
13:21both want the careers and families without forcing a choice?
13:25Because obviously what you have, some of the critics will say, well, if you're just
13:30saying, you know, family first, marriage first, babies first, then you're not necessarily respecting the
13:34women who want to be, you know, have the financial independence of having a profession.
13:40How can we, how can we frame that messaging to get a little bit more
13:44bipartisan support? It's a really important question.
13:47And I'll mention something about the bipartisan nature specifically in Washington, but the, the, the
13:52real core of your question about messaging so that people understand people might not usually
13:58follow the prescriptions of a, of a heritage policy proposal would understand where we're coming
14:02from is we're not, we're saying that individual choice is vitally important here for both
14:07women and men. And what we're trying to do is to craft a set of
14:11proposals that if men and women so choose to get married and have children, that
14:16there are at least policies that make that happen.
14:19And no way are we suggesting that people must do that.
14:22Obviously, this is not anything that we would propose.
14:24It couldn't be required. But the second thing is we know from data, I think
14:28about the great research that our friend Brad Wilcox has done at the University of
14:32Virginia on this very question, that a majority of American working women would like to
14:38spend at least a little more time at home with their children.
14:41And so we know that not just from the standpoint of our own ethos and
14:44heritage, which would be never to voice this kind of thing on anyone, but also
14:48from Americans themselves, this is what they're saying.
14:50Let me also say, if I may, Nicole, a comment about the bipartisan nature of
14:54this. We are philosophically right of center, but we will work at Heritage with anyone,
14:59anytime, any political party, or any political movement to get work done.
15:04For example, we have great common cause with the Secretary of Health and Human Services,
15:09Mr. Kennedy, who's going to be at an event soon at Heritage.
15:13But I'll also say, one of our heroes and sort of the person who inspired
15:17an aspect of this paper is the left of center politician, Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
15:22And we wish not only for this issue, but for so many that people, there
15:27were more people like Mr.
15:28Moynihan in Congress today, where we might disagree on some things, but on this matter
15:33itself, because it's civilizational for the American Republic, it far transcends any kind of partisan
15:38affiliation we have. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.
15:42And I love to hear that so many people are being involved.
15:45You know, one question that I have for you, because I saw a couple of
15:48articles about some critics in the report.
15:51They talk about what a quote -unquote good family was, or, you know, what the
15:56ideal environment for children, specifically as a married biological mother and father household.
16:02And so for critics saying that you're potentially excluding single parents, LGBTQ plus families, blended
16:09families, whatever it is, you know, what is some of the data that backs up
16:13what was put forth in the report?
16:16Well, there's a lot of...
16:18of data that backs that up.
16:19The first thing I'll say, though, is we're not suggesting that anyone is lesser than
16:24or somehow unimportant in American society.
16:27We're saying that because of the data, the social science data from Brad Wilcox at
16:32Virginia, my friend Mark Redneris, a sociologist at the University of Texas, point to the
16:36ideal. And each of us, at least according to my worldview, each of us is
16:40going to fall short of the ideal.
16:42But the ideal in terms of what's best for children, what's healthiest for American society
16:47is a family in which there are biological children, if that's possible for mom, and
16:54those children to be raised in a stable household.
16:57In fact, Wilcox's research over the last 15 or 20 years is entirely convincing on
17:02this point. So it's been sort of twofold for us.
17:05Of course, as a think tank, we're going to lean on the data, but we
17:08also want to reassure Americans that we ourselves, you know, the authors of this report
17:13are flawed and and can't live up to the ideal.
17:16But we have to recognize because of the data and because of history, especially in
17:20the United States, that the ideal is something we can aspire to, especially in federal
17:25policy. Yeah, I mean, you know, facts matter.
17:28And that's kind of the one thing that I try to always get to the
17:32point when I speak, you know, this really became evident during COVID.
17:36You talk about what you know, what you don't know, you admit when you're wrong.
17:41But when you're talking about some of these things, you know, very easily you can
17:44be labeled a bigot. I mean, we saw that even with transgender ideology.
17:48For anybody who's been speaking against the hormonal and physical mutilation of children in the
17:54last several years, like myself, we were called names like a bigot.
17:59And then you just saw one of the biggest medical groups, the American Academy of
18:03Plastic Surgeons, just come out and say, hold on, we don't think you should be
18:06doing it. Um, so it's important to follow the science, follow the data and admit
18:11when you're wrong. And the reality is there is data or there are data that
18:15show children in stable married households have better average mental and physical health outcomes.
18:22You know, that's not conjecture that that those are facts.
18:25Um, is marriage alone the causal cure for all ailments of children?
18:30Of course not. Um, but stability, low conflict and economic security truly explain most of
18:37the benefit. And you see that a lot in a two parent household.
18:40Um, you know, and so that's one of the frustrations I have because so easily
18:46a lot of things that you put forth in this report are just, um, criticized
18:51and people try to turn them into some sort of extremism, um, negating the fact
18:57that they're built in objective data.
19:00No, that's right. And, and, uh, I mean, hats off to you for your work
19:04across the board, especially starting with, with all the, uh, the, the COVID emphasis on
19:09truly trusting the science. I'll add one element to this as an educator by training.
19:14I've spent a lot of time, um, educating, but also working on, on policies, especially
19:20for economically disadvantaged Americans. And across the board in studies, you know, these, these are
19:26studies from left of center groups to right of center to dead in the center,
19:30politically across the board, all of that research shows that the single most important attribute
19:36or the single most important factor for educational attainment is stability of the home.
19:41And this research that we're doing regarding family policy now to, to your point squares
19:48with that data. And so it should be a real boon for anyone who wants
19:52to ask big civilizational questions that once again, transcend Republican and Democrat.
19:57I mean, these go straight to the heart of being human, obviously, but also this
20:00love we have for the future of this great Republic to just make those decisions
20:05based on the data and, and put some of the political noise off to the
20:09side so that we can do what's best for American families and children.
20:12So President Trump, since entering the White House, you've seen a boom when it comes
20:17to supporting mothers in the workplace.
20:19And I don't think I've ever seen as many children in the White House.
20:22But some policy things that he's done, he's established the Trump accounts to cede long
20:26term investment funds for newborns.
20:28They expanded the child tax credits and related family tax benefits, and also signed some
20:34orders, I don't remember the details, aimed at lowering IVF costs, and really just expanding
20:39access. So, you know, while we see that there is some movement to try and
20:44increase the birth rate here in the United States, interestingly enough, conservative think tank is
20:50saying the, the answer to improving the birth rate is more government intervention.
20:55So if you, if you had your nethers, and you had President Trump's ear, what
21:01are the three things that you would say currently that the federal government is getting
21:05wrong, not necessarily implemented by President Trump, but just existing policies?
21:09And then what are three things that have to be done if we want to
21:12take the marriage and birth rate crisis seriously?
21:17On the negative side of the ledger sheet, the things that government's gotten wrong, and
21:21to be clear to your question, I think the Trump administration is trying to fix
21:25these, but number one, eliminate the disincentives to marriage that exist in safety net programs.
21:31There are several of those, and some of those actually could probably be eliminated by
21:36executive order. It's better for the long term, obviously, if it's legislative.
21:40Can you give, do you have, can you give a specific example of that just
21:43for those of us who aren't?
21:44Sure. Food stamps. Food stamps.
21:46broadly defined, and also Medicaid, two big examples, not just huge drivers in the federal
21:53budget, but huge drivers in human behavior by tens of millions of Americans.
21:58And so addressing that, which Congress has begun to address, but, you know, we'd like
22:02to see a little more of that reform.
22:05I'm sorry to interrupt you.
22:06Here's a quick question, though.
22:07So right now, if you are a single parent, you get, you know, a higher
22:12percentage than if you're married.
22:14Is that essentially what you're saying?
22:16That's correct. And so if you're a single parent, while there are cultural and non
22:21-government economic factors that may go into your decision, along with individual choice, we believe
22:25federal policy at least ought not to be aggravating those factors by, in essence, paying
22:30you more to remain single.
22:32So for the people who would say, well, what about the woman who either their
22:36husband was tragically, tragically died, or husband left them, you know, she didn't do anything
22:42wrong, but now she finds herself single.
22:45She obviously shouldn't be penalized to receive less.
22:49But I think maybe what needs to happen is people who are married, you know,
22:55each individual should receive the same amount as she would as a single parent.
23:00Is that what you're kind of proposing?
23:02That's exactly right. We're obviously not wanting to disadvantage anyone in those tragic situations, whatever
23:06they may be. But we're just saying that for people eligible for those benefits who
23:11are married, the amounts ought to be the same.
23:13It's actually a matter of equity for them.
23:16The second thing is there are, to move from the federal level, Nicole, to the
23:21state level, there are state policies that mirror federal policies because of administrative rules by
23:27these relevant agencies. The Department of Agriculture, which of course controls a lot of those
23:31safety net programs. My friend and one -time colleague, Brooke Rollins, Secretary of Agriculture, is
23:36working hard on that. But that is still some work that needs to be done
23:39in spite of this early success.
23:41And the third thing is, which may seem esoteric for someone or unusual for someone
23:47who's focused on hard policy, there needs to be a rhetorical shift among policymakers toward
23:54elevating marriage and elevating birth.
23:57You know, we know that the law is a teacher, but also the rhetoric of
24:00our leaders can be a teacher.
24:01And so we're encouraging everybody across the political spectrum to do that.
24:06On the positive side of the ledger, there are some real opportunities, as we've talked
24:11about two of them, the tax credit, basically additional benefits in the Trump account for
24:17men and women who get married by the age of 30.
24:19Number two, expanding the adoption tax credit to be an incentive for children and your
24:25own family. And then the third is, this is where federalism is really important to
24:30us. We believe that there ought to be federal grants that are block grants to
24:34states so that they can mirror those policies at the state level.
24:38I cut my teeth in policy work working on state policy.
24:41And I can tell you, just to really remind you and your audience of something
24:45you know, the state legislatures can be a lot more nimble.
24:49They're a lot closer to the problem or to the opportunity.
24:51And we think that there's a real opportunity here for the federal government simply to
24:56block Randall out of this money and let states once again become the laboratory for
25:00figuring out this innovation and family policy.
25:03More coming up on Wellness Unmasked with Dr.
25:06Nicole Sapphire. This podcast is brought to you by WISE, the app for international people
25:11using money around the globe.
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25:37T's and C's apply. So if five years from now, let's say the Trump administration
25:43adopts a lot of the, you know, the proposed policy that you're suggesting, not just
25:49Trump, but the states as well, you know, what specific data point should Americans look
25:53at and say, well, this worked and, you know, future generations looking back at now,
25:59you know, what do you think they'll say we actually misunderstood about families to get
26:03us to where we are now?
26:05The specific data point, if you forced us to be focused on one, would be
26:09the overall fertility rate, but we're really homing in on the married fertility rate.
26:13That's really where we think the, you know, in the control room of American policy,
26:18we might see as early as five years if by some chance, Congress were to
26:22pass these policies. This year, we would see that success.
26:25But the other thing is, and we're really clear about this in the paper, two
26:29things, if I may. The first is an institutional humility by heritage that we don't
26:34believe we have all the answers here.
26:35We don't believe that the two policy proposals we've made are the end all be
26:39all. But sort of like you said, regarding the COVID data, if we get five
26:43years down the road and we realize, oh, actually, those weren't the best things to
26:47do, we'll say that. And that's what these nations, Israel, Hungary in particular, have done.
26:52They've adjusted along the way.
26:54So I believe we'll have the humility to say that.
26:56But the second thing is, we wanted to start a conversation.
26:59And so hopefully, what say in the year 2031, we will realize is, gosh, just
27:05as the fertility rate had come down to 1 .59, we realized this isn't just
27:11something that culture and the economy will control.
27:14It's something that the federal policy, federal government can actually play a role in.
27:19And while it might be small, it might just be one of those factors, it
27:23is a factor. And if we succeed in doing that, then I think we're going
27:26to be really optimistic about the future of the American family.
27:30Well, I think it'd be very interesting to get you in a room with Elon
27:33Musk, who inarguably is one of the most brilliant humans to walk the face of
27:36this earth. And while he has been very focused on the birth rate, I think
27:40having 14 children, maybe himself.
27:43But you're saying it's not just about increasing the birth rate, having more babies.
27:48You're saying it is about having more married babies or babies while a product of
27:54marriage. So what would you say to Elon Musk?
27:56What would your message be to him if you sat down with him?
27:59Well, first of all, I would look forward to that conversation and that topic and
28:03many others with him. We're big fans of Elon at Heritage.
28:05I would say, I would remind him, and he knows this.
28:08So, you know, this is just a reminder.
28:10The family is the most important institution.
28:12And we're grateful, I would say to Elon.
28:15We're grateful for your advocating for the birth rate.
28:18And so rather than chide him for that or make what might be misseen as
28:22a sort of moral judgment about that, we would instead say for us as a
28:28society, as a civilization, certainly for us as an organization, focusing first on marriage has
28:33many benefits that redound to the rest of civilization, not just those of us who
28:37also have the benefit of being in married families.
28:41Well, you know, I don't know if you know my story.
28:44I had a son when I was very young, not married, but I am now
28:48happily married for about 15 years.
28:51And I am a huge proponent of being married, having children.
28:55I find it to be much more fulfilling economically, emotionally.
29:00It's not ideal having a, being a single parent.
29:04And I don't wish that on anybody.
29:06So I am a huge supporter of the message of marriage first, and then have
29:11babies, babies, babies, because we need to get this birth rate up if we want
29:14to continue on. Thank you so much, Kevin, for coming on.
29:17I really appreciate the message.
29:19And not just the message, but also you, you're not just complaining about something.
29:23You're actually putting forth solutions, which you don't really see a lot these days.
29:26And I appreciate all the data forward solutions that you and Heritage have put forth.
29:31Well, thanks for the interview, Nicole.
29:33We at Heritage to that point believe in being for something and then explaining how
29:37we can get there. And also just want to commend you, not that you need
29:40to hear it from us, but it is heartfelt for your own witness on all
29:44of these matters. God bless you for your work.
29:46Thank you so much. The declining birth rates, they're not just an abstract statistic.
29:52They actually reflect real pressures on the families, real trade -offs parents are making, and
29:56real consequences for the next generation and the following generation.
30:00So today's conversation shows just how complex this issue is.
30:04Stability in the household matters.
30:06It really does. Economic security also matters.
30:10It's not black and white.
30:11It's not going to be extremely simple to fix because we also have to hone
30:16in on cultural matters and policy choices, whether well -intentioned, can have ripple effects far
30:22beyond what's written in paper.
30:23I understand. If you have a single mother, you want to give her more credits,
30:28more money, anything you possibly can to support her because you know she is struggling.
30:33But does this disincentivize someone to actually become married?
30:38I don't actually know the answer to that.
30:40But the Heritage report is full of data showing that we need to make sure
30:45that we are treating people as the individuals and not based on their marriage status.
30:50It's an interesting way to think about things.
30:52The challenge isn't about choosing sides.
30:54It's choosing solutions that will actually improve the mental, physical, and economic health of our
31:01families, specifically our children, without creating new harms in the process.
31:05So that's the lens we're going to keep bringing here on Wellness Unmask.
31:09I like to ask hard questions, follow the data always, and staying grounded in real
31:14-world outcomes. Thank you so much for listening to Wellness Unmask with Dr.
31:18Nicole Sapphire. I'm Dr. Nicole Sapphire.
31:20Make sure to listen to Wellness Unmask on Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, wherever you get your
31:26podcasts, and we will see you next time.
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