The Manosphere Report

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1:48Now it's, I have to get into pilot training.

1:51So you have to compete for that.

1:53So like, no social life.

1:56No drinking. I didn't do anything that people would consider fun for that age.

2:02I had a buddy, and then he called me a couple days later.

2:06He's like, hey, do you want to go to Chili's?

2:08And I was like, dude, you don't get it.

2:11There's no more Chili's. There's no nothing.

2:13This is all I do.

2:16If I get through this program and I don't get a pilot slot because I

2:20went to Chili's one night, I'm going to regret it for the rest of my

2:23life. You're basically like rewiring your brain to do something kind of insane.

2:29So to do that is very painful, especially in a short period of time.

2:33Right. So you can only do that with extreme stress.

2:37It's like the iron in the fire forging it.

2:41That's right. Dale, thank you so much for coming to Idaho and spending time with

2:58all of us. One of the things that was really fascinating to me when I

3:03first reached out to Clay, hey, I really am pondering, trying to figure out this

3:12dilemma of how do we properly influence the next generation amidst of all the turmoil

3:19that's kind of going on that we're witnessing.

3:21That, you know, I think all of us are kind of walking this tightrope of

3:26trying to figure out what that means.

3:28And I remember I was like, all right, well, you know, Clay, you're there.

3:33And he's like, you know who we got to bring in?

3:35We got to bring in Dale.

3:36And I was like, yes, awesome.

3:38So I know it's out of your way, but, you know, your your opinion and

3:43your experience and your wisdom, I think, is going to have a really significant impact,

3:48not only on our discussion this evening, but, you know, in the grander context for

3:53young people. Really trying to, you know, one, decipher the complexities of what they're witnessing

4:00and then the other is to, you know, to continue, I think, what our greater

4:07responsibilities are post -service is to instill whatever we were able to experience ourselves in

4:15our own service into them in some way.

4:17So I appreciate you being here, man.

4:19Yeah, thanks for the invite.

4:20Yeah, absolutely. All right. So there's always this, you know, idea or this question, I

4:27think, of the moment of inspiration, right, of service.

4:33And we were joking, you know, last night about those moments, whether it was, you

4:38know, a movie or it was, you know, some SF guy or pilot that you

4:45met growing up or someone who had served who had this, you know, this aura

4:50about them. And that kind of, you gravitated towards.

4:53So what was that piece for you growing up that really kind of triggered the

5:00initial idea that, wow, I think service would be a cool thing?

5:04Well, I kind of, you know, grew up in the woods playing outside a lot

5:09and completely obsessed with Rambo, G .I.

5:13Joe. That was my favorite part of the interview with Sean was like describing that

5:18period in particular when you lived outside in the tent for months.

5:22And I saw that one summer, I was just like, my God.

5:25What a perfect idealistic experience, right?

5:29Yeah, so I just, I love the outdoors.

5:31You know, I had my survival knife.

5:34The serrated edge with the compass on the bottom.

5:38You put the matches in the fishing line.

5:41Yeah, awesome. I always was, you know, drawn to military culture.

5:45I was that weird kid who wore, like, camo to school, like, K through third

5:50grade or so. So, yeah, I was just always kind of drawn to it.

5:56Then fast forward, like, right out of high school, pretty much broke, not great GPA,

6:03anything like that. So I looked into the military.

6:06I seriously considered the Marines.

6:08I was like, you know, Marines are badass.

6:10They are cool uniforms. Yeah, yeah, great, great recruiting ads.

6:14Yeah, they're badass. Yeah, so I almost enlisted, and then I actually picked up, like,

6:21a tuition waiver for a wrestling scholarship at the local community college.

6:25Yeah. So I decided to hang out in my hometown a little bit longer.

6:31And then over time, that just basically did not work out for me.

6:36Just not mature enough, not ready.

6:39Didn't really have any, like, vision for what I wanted to do.

6:44So my parents were kind of old school and hard ass.

6:48So, you know, it's a thing.

6:49You need to pay rent.

6:50You need to contribute. I felt like I was going to school, and we had

6:55a conflict, right? So guess who won that conflict?

6:59Not you. Not me. Not you, for sure.

7:02For sure. Yeah, so, you know, come home one day.

7:05All my stuff's out on the porch.

7:07It's like, all right, you're done.

7:09You need to figure it out.

7:11You need to, you know, and if I were, like, getting straight A's and going

7:14places, I'm sure it would have been different.

7:16For sure. But I was, you know, partying, coming home at 3 a .m., getting

7:21terrible grades in community college.

7:24So looking back, I see where they're coming from.

7:30So anyhow, I try, you know, now I'm couch surfing at Buddy's houses, living in

7:36the back of my 79 Volvo station wagon.

7:39I put a futon mattress in there.

7:42It's like clean living, man.

7:43Yeah, I just, you know, go to wrestling practice, shower at the gym, and I

7:48made that work for maybe six months.

7:51Oh, wow. And I was like, just, you know, just dead rock bottom.

7:56Yeah. You're like, you're like, oh, yeah, does it get worse than this?

8:01Right, right. Like, terrible grades in community college, living in your car.

8:05You're like, I've got to do something.

8:06Did you have a reference of success, though?

8:08Like, did you, I mean, because, I mean, I know in those moments where I

8:13was in kind of a similar kind of lost mentality, like, my reference was a

8:20reference of not my peers, per se, but it was a reference of people that

8:24were older than me, right?

8:26Like, it was a reference, oh, that's what I'm supposed to be doing, instead of

8:30a peer reference of, like, oh, I'm not living up to what my buddy's doing

8:36right here. Did you have any of that?

8:38Yeah, so, like, I had a good group of friends, and they were, you know,

8:42off to college, doing well, and then I didn't want to just go get, like,

8:47a manual labor job, you know, so, but I had no skills or experience to

8:53do otherwise. Well, you could skate real well.

8:54Yeah. Skating and surfing, wasn't paying the bills.

9:00So, yeah, just, just basically one of those kids that's just at rock bottom and

9:07going, okay, well, I looked at the military a couple years ago, maybe I should

9:11revisit that. And that started, just got that in my mind, like, oh, look at

9:16the GI Bill. So, it really was just, you know, I'll be honest, it was

9:22pre -9 -11, it wasn't this, like, deep sense of patriotism.

9:26I looked at it more of, like, as a means to an end.

9:28Yeah, yeah, I did too.

9:30Yeah, I was, like, trying to fulfill that void that somehow wasn't being filled, right?

9:38Like, I knew I was capable of something more.

9:41I just didn't know how to pick the path to discover it in myself.

9:46And so, the military was a similar thing.

9:49Yeah, and I had an uncle, Arthur Stark, who was a Huey crew chief in

9:56Vietnam, did two tours, went into the Army Reserves, became a Chinook pilot, and then

10:01was in the initial invasion in Iraq.

10:05Back in 03, is a 58 -year -old, one of the most experienced Hilo pilots

10:09in the Army at the time.

10:10Oh, wow. And so, I'm talking to him, and I'm kind of, you know, should

10:16I join the Army? You know, should I join the Marines?

10:19I'm just kind of looking at it, you know, like, what would be the best

10:25opportunity? And he just told me I should join the Air Force.

10:29He's like, your scores are good.

10:31He's like, I've been in the Army, you know, my whole life.

10:33Listen to me. You know, I had always been intrigued with flying.

10:38I had nothing in my background that would suggest I could ever be a pilot,

10:42grades -wise or anything else.

10:45But he explained, he's like, you know, if you're in the Marines, they have an

10:51Air Force, but it's very...

10:52small component compared to the infantry and he's like the army same thing army's about

10:58you know infantry tanks all that fun stuff he's like the aviation component is kind

11:03of an afterthought i mean it's important but it's he's like in the air force

11:08it's all about aviation right and so i looked at it kind of practically at

11:13that time i was like well i could go be a crew chief so a

11:18maintainer on c -17s and that could um give me a skill that i could

11:24do it four years you know have the gi bill and then maybe go to

11:28school maybe do this job um and on the civilian side and have a nice

11:33career so it was really just wanting to get the heck out of my car

11:38at that time interesting yeah it's funny you know you you that i that that

11:45sense of rock bottom right and what that spark how that spark creates and how

11:50it how it how the flame grows was and your uncle obviously was able to

11:55like like get some fuel in you and get you going what was the thing

12:00though that like was that pushed you over was like okay this is the path

12:05i'm gonna take this is what i'm gonna do i i'll be completely honest i

12:10think it was just i had no other options is how i felt yeah it

12:15was it was like well your your test scores are good um no one's you

12:20know i could get a tuition waiver but i'm not a great wrestler i was

12:24good but i wasn't going to get recruited to like iowa or anything so and

12:29i had a couple shoulder injuries and i could just feel that you know coming

12:33to the end of the road on that and uh yeah it was i looked

12:37at it i could either do this and gain a skill and get the gi

12:40bill or i can um you know go do landscaping is how i felt about

12:46it right right and so what was the the the the process to becoming an

12:53officer and becoming a pilot for you then yeah so i enlisted and now i'm

12:59a crew chief and as soon as i joined the military yeah like everything turned

13:03around for me immediately yeah you know i was an honor graduate at a basic

13:07training i was really fit so you know air force basic training it's not gonna

13:11be that hard and then um you know the military is very task oriented yeah

13:17so i didn't you know i i felt like when i was going to school

13:20i was you know i was wrestling i was doing all these things i had

13:23a job just trying to make it make it all work uh i was operating

13:28at a disadvantage you know i'm like well my buddies don't have to do this

13:33all this other stuff and they can just focus on school and competing right and

13:38then um and i've got all these other issues that are making it difficult where

13:43you go into the military and it doesn't matter where you came from it doesn't

13:46matter if you're wealthy if you're poor yeah you're you're you know just judged based

13:52on what you can accomplish right the beauty of meritocracy the last bastion of meritocracy

13:57right yeah it really felt like especially at that time it was a real meritocracy

14:01and so i started having success and that started feeding on itself yeah what was

14:07the first piece of success that you felt besides the honor grad that must have

14:11been huge though because that's a big deal like you're right in you're unsure and

14:15then you have that pinnacle like you're the best of this class like that's yeah

14:20so what kind of put this in my mind was um i so after basic

14:26training i go to shepherd air force base for crew chief school and um that

14:31base also has pilot training so when i'm at the the commissary bx just out

14:38and about i'm meeting these dudes that are you know not that much older than

14:43me and they're going through pilot training and i see the jets you know full

14:47afterburner takeoffs and the t -38 and you're like it you know i thought they

14:52were like sky god that's right how on earth could you get paid to do

14:57that yeah yeah and uh so i'm meeting these guys and i'm just pulling information

15:03from how do you do it you know what do you need and i'm kind

15:06of like reverse engineering it in my mind like how can i get from where

15:10i am to where they are yeah and then i just realized that it's uh

15:16not probable but there is a way there's a way to do it it's very

15:21um you know how the military is they make it very clear for you right

15:26so hey you want to be a pilot well you need a bachelor's degree you

15:30need to compete with your gpa you need to take these standardized tests you need

15:34a fitness test you need your commander's recommendation which means you need to be good

15:38at your current job so i'm i'm looking at all these things and i'm like

15:43you know what like i i think i could do it if i just put

15:47all of my energy into it and so that's basically what i did so just

15:52get to my first base um i start studying and challenging college courses uh i

16:00start taking college courses like in my in my off time and now which is

16:04not a lot because your crew chief which is incredible responsibility and timing and wrenching

16:11i mean like the magnitude of hours that's the thing that i never really comprehended

16:15until i got in with people that keep these vehicles these planes operational is so

16:22substantial it's it was almost like oh my god like it was this missing piece

16:27of logistics that was pretty overwhelming for me to even understand yeah and you know

16:33at this phase of my life it kind of you know when i was young

16:37they uh actually diagnosed me with like add back in the day i just couldn't

16:42pay attention you know yeah and so um luckily it was paper records back then

16:47so you know i never took the medication that's right it was just like it

16:51never happened but now like being a little autistic maybe paid off because i just

16:57was 100 dialed in on work school physical training wow and that's all i did

17:05for basically the next year and a half year and a half that's how long

17:09it took was there any did you have any one significant uh individual influence of

17:15somebody that saw this focus in you and is like i'm gonna help this young

17:21airman yes in any way i can help for him to achieve his dream yeah

17:25you know you look back at things and you look at how uh grateful you

17:29are because like i always say if i if i tried to do this like

17:32a million times it might work out one time right because uh it's just you

17:37know you have to be so grateful because luck timing hard work everything has to

17:41converge in one yeah that's awesome so there was a group commander at charleston and

17:47i got to know him through through work he was a pilot um and uh

17:52i was a crew chief and a flying crew chief so i'd go on trips

17:55on occasion and stuff and i would work really hard and i would study whenever

18:01i had any time on the airplane i mean i i was such a bad

18:04student like if i want to get my standardized test scores i need to like

18:08rebuild the basic basic how to take a test i'm teaching myself like basic algebra

18:15wow i'm like i'm like i'm doing everything i can do to shore up these

18:20areas and uh i think he saw that my maintenance squadron commander saw that and

18:26then after you know a year or so doing it i think they just thought

18:30hey he's young enough and i did take the test and i scored surprisingly well

18:35and now my uh gpa is really good i was getting straight a's you know

18:41because i had that focus yeah a little more maturity you know now school seems

18:46easy because you're comparing it to working 10 12 hour days on the flight line

18:50right right and you're like yeah i can sit here for 45 minutes and then

18:54do my homework yeah yeah yeah it's funny how the the the grind of like

19:00real committed work right how that what your perception of difficulty as a young person

19:10becomes right it's so much more expansive once you realize oh this is what hard

19:17work is yes oh and so 45 minutes just reading a book and committing it

19:23to me oh my like that's easy i do that in my sleep so so

19:27so to speak i think the air force taught me how to study yeah and

19:31how to take tests that's cool and then you're just going like oh okay like

19:35this is not that difficult yeah it's difficult the school is very difficult when you

19:42skip all the time you just show up yeah yeah yeah totally totally but when

19:49i looked at it as a means to an end yeah i'm like this is

19:52my path to doing something cool oh wow you know i'm like i don't want

19:58to go back i want to do you know i always wanted to do something

20:02big something special something fun i didn't want to um just have a normal a

20:09mundane life nothing wrong with that but i was just kind of all or nothing

20:14so that that's kind of when i got that that's cool when was what was

20:18the moment like when you realized that you had been accepted to go to ocs

20:24and to go tour and becoming a pilot what was that oh man it was

20:28actually a terrible experience so i have no idea i put in my application did

20:34all the testing and one day um my squadron commander calls me in i walk

20:41in there there's a jag and the chief and he puts me at attention wow

20:47and he reads me my miranda rights and i'm sitting there going through my mind

20:53what did i go flush i'm thinking of all the terrible things i've done in

20:57my life that i got away with coming back and i'm like and i'm just

21:01going through that you know all these all these horror yep thoughts in my mind

21:06of what i what i what finally caught up with me right from my childhood

21:10or something you know i i i came into the air force on i had

21:14a a waiver for marijuana usage for getting arrested underage drinking all the above yeah

21:20so i was like i have no idea what this is but it's not good

21:25um this is i'm i'm it was terrifying and then uh they all just start

21:30cracking up laughing they're like no you're good uh oh my god congratulations oh my

21:36god those bastards man oh my what that's funny though like not while you're going

21:41through it obviously but like oh my god they were great yeah they were classic

21:45so was that moment you're like oh my god you're like oh my god you're

21:47like oh my god you're like oh my god you're like oh my god you're

21:48like oh my god you're like oh my god you're like oh my god you're

21:48like oh my god you're like oh my I mean, obviously those, those are the

21:51moments that even reinforce your self -confidence even deeper.

21:55It's like, oh no, this is where I'm supposed to be.

21:58I am supposed to achieve something like this.

22:03And so that must've, uh, did that, um, did it alter what was in front

22:11of you? Cause you still had to go through flight school.

22:14Like you still had to go through really complicated things and really dangerous things.

22:20And, you know, and it was not going to be easy, but it feels like

22:24that might've been a moment that shifted your perspective a little bit.

22:27Yeah. It's a time when you're on one course and then you go off on

22:32another adventure, you know, it's like, there's no longer, I'm going to do this for

22:36four years and go home and get a job.

22:39Uh, it's like, no, I'm all in on this now.

22:42Right. So, and that, that must have been unique too, because you're right as an

22:46enlisted person, you know, there is this limitation or the limited nature of the service.

22:54Like, you know, it's going to come to an end, but with something like, you

22:58know, whether going in soft or going in as a pilot or whatever, like it,

23:03it, there's an extension that's relative to it because the boundaries seem to be taken

23:09away. So like, I, you know, I could do 30 years as an officer in

23:13the air force and I can fly all these different platforms or I can, you

23:18know, the, the, it changes perspective.

23:20Yeah. The pilot training commitment.

23:22Um, so from the time you end pilot training, you owe 10 years.

23:27So, and pilot training, depending on any delays, things like that is kind of one

23:32into two years. So yeah, you're signing up for 12 years.

23:37Plus I had two more years of college.

23:38Wow. I mean, but you know, 10 year commitment, honestly, uh, if you would have

23:42asked me to sign a lifelong commitment at that time, I would have done it.

23:46A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.

23:48Yeah. Yeah. So tell me what it was like when you, when all of a

23:52sudden now you're, you're in the program, right?

23:55You're now moving forward with all those different things.

23:58How did you, what sense of your maturity, your peers around you that that must've

24:05changed dramatically. What was all that like?

24:07Yeah. So now I go back to school full time and I'm just a normal

24:12student on a full scholarship with, uh, you know, I'm fine financially.

24:18Right. And I'm a little bit older.

24:19I've been through a little bit more, so more maturity.

24:23And, um, now it's, I have to get into pilot training.

24:26So you have to compete for that.

24:28Wow. So I tackled school just kind of how I just kept that momentum going.

24:33Yeah. And so now I'm a great student because that's all I care about.

24:38All you care about. So like no social life, no drinking.

24:42I didn't do anything that people would consider fun for that age.

24:47Yeah. Uh, I had a buddy who was a maintainer and he wanted to do

24:52the same thing. He kind of saw what I was up to.

24:55So I talked to him about it, kind of told him the path, the mindset

24:58it took. And then he called me, um, a couple of days later and he's

25:02like, Hey, do you want to go, go to Chili's and talk about it some

25:06more? And I was like, dude, you don't get it.

25:09Yeah. There's no more Chili's.

25:11Yeah. There's no nothing. This is all I do.

25:14Right. And not only, uh, I mean, if you're smarter than me, more prepared, maybe

25:19you could, uh, do it a lot easier.

25:23I'm sure most people did, but my mindset was I'm going to leave nothing, uh,

25:29to chance, nothing to chance.

25:31If there's, uh, if I get through this program and I don't get a pilot

25:34slot because I went to Chili's one night, I'm going to regret it for the

25:39rest of my life. Wow.

25:40I just want to really, uh, talk about my incredible partnership with one of my

25:45best friends. Uh, and that's, uh, Evan Hafer and the boys over at Black Rifle

25:50Coffee. Uh, I'm so honored to be a part of their organization.

25:56Um, and just really can't thank them enough, uh, for allowing me to participate.

26:01Uh, what I want you to do is, uh, go to BlackRifleCoffee .com.

26:07Uh, and I want to check out, uh, their new energy drinks.

26:11They have these incredible energy drinks that you can buy at all different kinds of

26:15stores, Walmart, uh, bath sports and others.

26:18Uh, or you can go online and order.

26:21And if you want to put in your little promo code, frog logic two zero,

26:25uh, there you get a little discount on stuff there.

26:28I highly recommend that for me.

26:30It's, uh, my morning coffee.

26:32I am addicted to Black Rifle Coffee's just black.

26:36Uh, I think the tiger stripe camo definitely reels me in.

26:39Uh, the other one I love is the AK espresso.

26:43Uh, this one right here is phenomenal.

26:45Love these, but they have so many different things that you could get at Black

26:49Rifle Coffee. You will love it.

26:51Uh, again, when you go over BlackRifleCoffee .com and you're checking out, type in frog

26:57logic two zero, uh, get your little discount quote, uh, and tell them already rut

27:02rut sent you. So to all those, uh, folks out there who, uh, love coffee,

27:07like I do, please do yourself a favor and go over and check out my,

27:10my brothers at BRCC. Oh, and we've got a cool event.

27:15Coming up that I'm going to be a part of out in Vegas.

27:19It's a staccato shooting, big shooting event with BRCC.

27:23So Jordy and I are going to go out and participate in that.

27:26We'll get some good footage and maybe a couple interviews.

27:29All right. Hey, it's Ben Ferguson.

27:31And I want you to pause what you're doing for just one minute.

27:34And I want you to hear about Alejandra.

27:37She lives in a remote community with very few resources and little to no health

27:42care. So when Alejandra gets sick, her parents have no real options, no doctors in

27:49their community and no money for real medical care.

27:53By the third day, her body was shutting down.

27:56She woke up and just long enough to tell her mom, I can't take the

28:01pain anymore. I can't keep going.

28:03Her parents drove hours to find a doctor who tried everything, but she needed a

28:09private hospital, and that was impossible for her family to afford.

28:14And that is when Compassion International stepped in.

28:17Now, through Compassion, Alejandra was treated, and against all odds, she survived.

28:23She lived because someone just like you took action.

28:28Right now, unfortunately, there are children just like Alejandra who won't survive unless someone like

28:34you steps in. Compassion International partners with local churches, providing children with the support that

28:41they need. Critical medical care, plus food, education, and the hope of the gospel.

28:48All in Jesus' name. So help a child just like Alejandra today.

28:54You can visit Compassion .com.

28:57That's Compassion .com. Do you ever feel like you're drinking from a firehouse?

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30:29Wow. And was that level of dedication, like, was it, was it, what was that,

30:37was it a new experience or had you, had you had, cause I remember, you

30:42know, you talked about, like, I got really into skating, right?

30:46And it was like, that's all I did.

30:48So it, it sounds like you had, you had always had the propensity for all

30:53in, or that full commitment.

30:54Was it different this time?

30:57Was it? It was that same personality trait.

31:00Yeah. And I think if like a lot of kids with ADD, now ADHD or

31:06whatever they, they call it, um, it, you know, you can put that energy into

31:12something that might not help you in your life.

31:16Yeah. But yeah, that, that personality was always there.

31:19I would just obsess about one thing.

31:22Right. Yeah. So I'm sitting there in class and junior high and I'm just drawing

31:26ramps and waves and not learning anything.

31:29But now it's like all that mental energy is just laser focused on this one

31:36goal. And so then now, you know, my commander at ROTC, he sees that the

31:42grades, testing, everything's top notch.

31:46So now if you were to go back to see the people I went to

31:49high school with, they wouldn't even believe it.

31:51They don't even recognize you.

31:53They probably thought it was the most bizarre story they'd ever heard.

31:56Right, right. Dale's a what?

31:58He's a, he's going to be a pilot.

32:00What? Yeah. Yeah. That's wild.

32:02That's wild. It's just, you know, you, you get a little bit more maturity and

32:07then you use those tools you have within yourself to direct it towards something productive.

32:13That's perfectly said. I love that concept, right?

32:16It's, you know, if, and again, like our responsibility to inspire young people to make

32:23harder decisions that have a greater long -term reward for them.

32:29Right. Like in particular, as, as we're referencing our service, right.

32:34And it's worth the pain up front to get what you get later on for

32:38sure. And I see a lot of that with kids that get obsessed with video

32:43games. now and they're probably very difficult very complex huge like cognitive load and um

32:50and they throw everything into that and you look at those kids and you're like

32:56they actually have a ton of capability tons and if they use that that focus

33:01they harnessed it and were able to use it as it when they get a

33:03little bit older yeah to something else they want to do yeah they could crush

33:08well i agree with you i i i believe our our kids are so capable

33:14now and so um they can absorb it seems like they can absorb information but

33:21then utilizing the information and uh and a physical drive towards an ambitious end right

33:28like oh i want to become this and so i'm going to redirect like you're

33:33saying and to the steps however many thousands it takes to get there right and

33:38if you can if you can master one yeah domain yeah you probably can do

33:43it elsewhere 100 and i and that's the messaging that is now starting to turn

33:49whereas before if you have adhd or you're on whatever meds or you're like you're

33:56kind of like written off right and and you know whether you go down the

34:00conspiracy theory that that was all intention i but like i i watched it with

34:04my best friend growing up who was in six different high schools he never could

34:09sit still he was this but then after he graduated he went to paris island

34:14became a marine and it changed his life and now he owns a multi -million

34:18dollar landscape business you know and he he's that obsessive guy like you give him

34:24like he one time bought 200 acres and planted 25 000 orange trees but him

34:30and another guy you know just an animal he's an a like he won't quit

34:34you know i remember he called me and he's on his back and i'm like

34:37what's that noise he's like i'm spraying myself with the hose because i almost died

34:41from heat stroke and i'm like what are you doing he's like i'm planting 10

34:45000 orange trees today and i'm like what like where's your crew so you're like

34:4950 i'm like what are you doing man you know but but you're right it's

34:53that it is and joe rogan's calling it like a superpower now right recently he

34:58said with with i think the over on it was but so you have now

35:02this ultra focus and you make it through college that which must have been interesting

35:08obviously because you've got that other experience but your focus what was the moment like

35:13where you got picked up to go to flight school and what was that transition

35:20because now like you're back with a ultra competitive arena right everybody wants is putting

35:29in everything and so what was that like yeah you know every step up you

35:35make it's narrowed down and the competition is tougher yeah and so start pilot training

35:41you know you're with 30 35 people and four or five of you might end

35:48up in a fighter and i knew i wanted to fly the a10 and maybe

35:52just one of you how'd you know you wanted to fly the a10 so when

35:55i was going through crew chief school the first airplane that they teach you to

35:59work on is the a10 okay because it's like it's the perfect uh aircraft to

36:04demonstrate how these systems work okay because say you learn about a hydraulic system you

36:10can just pull off the panels and you're like there's the reservoir there's all the

36:14hydraulic lines there's the valves you know and electrical system everything like that it's just

36:19all transparent right in front of you and so while i'm doing that you know

36:24i'm sitting in the cockpit of the jet looking through the heads up display looking

36:29over my shoulders at the wings going like i can't believe people get paid to

36:34fly this thing yeah my instructor was a uh a10 crew chief he was a

36:39gulf war veteran and he told this story i don't even know if it's true

36:43but he's talking all about the a10s and all the great work they did and

36:48he's like described them just as a bunch of cowboys and outcasts and they're like

36:53the redheaded stepchildren of the air force and i'm thinking of like you know pappy

36:58bowington and it just appealed to me so much that was it but the one

37:02thing he said that i don't know now if it's true he's like this guy

37:05he's a surfer he came up over our unit he flew upside down he gave

37:10us the hang loose i could like i could see his blonde hair like coming

37:14out of his helmet and his uh yeah the expression on his face and and

37:19so i'm just getting this this picture in my mind of like this is the

37:24group of people that i want to be a part of that's my tribe yeah

37:27yeah that's really cool it's funny you know a lot of times the stories don't

37:31even need to be true it's just the right timing and the right person telling

37:35it can plant that seed to where you can convert that into a lifetime of

37:41ambition right if the story's told well enough and the story is you know and

37:46like he's talking to you right and whatever 10 true yeah whatever reason he was

37:53articulating the hang loose and he knew your background and all that is like this

37:58person will gravitate towards the power of that image and that mindset and so it

38:04must have been cool so now you're you're in flight school everybody's grinding and what

38:11don't forget to keep track of that image and all that means um so that's

38:11a pretty alert for him for the oh what what's going on next yeah so

38:13i do uh an exchange program with the navy so i do my primary flight

38:18training with the navy flying the t -34 and uh out in pensacola and met

38:23my best friend of now like 25 years john deloney who went to fly f

38:28-22s and f -15s but um and he and i kind of just buddied up

38:34right away and we're like we are gonna so once you get halfway through pilot

38:39training they track select you right so you're going fighter bomber or you're going i

38:44love those videos where the dudes are on stage and they're waiting and it shows

38:47the best it's got to be the coolest feeling ever so we're like we're not

38:52hanging out at the beach or he had my exact same mindset so we just

38:57fanatically prepared for every sortie um you know pilot training i'm like a lot of

39:05elite military training they're not there to build you up build your self -esteem up

39:11they don't have time to tell you about everything you did great um so it's

39:16just the the debriefs are just brutal yeah it's just how and and you're like

39:21i don't know if i'm good enough you know yeah you start feeling that self

39:25-doubt creeps in yeah but you look around and you're like oh everybody feels that

39:30way and you know from the way i grew up i think i had a

39:34lot of resiliency and then from wrestling it's just you're just like okay now is

39:40the grind and now is how you're going to separate yourself by um like you

39:45know not backing down not not giving up not letting off i mean the very

39:50first day of pilot training they raise their hand like who wants to be a

39:52fighter pilot and everyone raises their hand and then like three months later they're like

39:57who wants to be a fighter pilot and like half the class raises their hand

40:00wow just because they're like i don't want to get kicked in the teeth for

40:05the next 20 years right that's right because it never ends ever ever right and

40:10so is it is it the pressure never ends or the responsibility like what do

40:14you mean never ends the pressure so it's it's the the kind of the general

40:19understanding is if when you get to track to select and you go heavies it's

40:24going to be a little more chill like the time of um worrying about washing

40:31out which you still can i'm sure and just like like they say you know

40:36they eat their young it's just it's brutal like you know you could i've seen

40:41people like almost done with pilot training have a bad week and they're out yep

40:48and if they had gone that easier route under the heavies it'd probably be pilots

40:51right now you know so um it's just you have to ask your it's a

40:56real gut check yeah i like the way you describe that and and it's it's

41:00perpetual right like you're you're doing the gut check every day all day every minute

41:08like end of the day you're looking at your face going man i didn't do

41:13what i needed to do today i'm going to come back stronger tomorrow right it's

41:18it's that that pressure you place upon yourself now right and that that and it

41:23did you ever feel like um it it it got away from you or it

41:30became distorted in a way where maybe that doubt did begin to overwhelm you a

41:36little bit yeah so uh i finished up t -34s and i both john and

41:41i were selected to go fighter bomber track and um you know that program was

41:47was uh difficult but i felt like we kind of had it handled especially by

41:52the end and then i go fly the t -38c which you go from 150

41:58knot prop plane to now a supersonic jet with a tiny wing wow that kills

42:04a lot of people you know if you are in the coming in to land

42:09in your final turn you forget to drop the flaps you get a little slow

42:13you might just stall wow i mean yeah if you if you're around long enough

42:18in this community and you know several people who've died in that airplane oh wow

42:22and so um it's the real deal you know it's it's like okay uh you're

42:27gonna solo in six sorties and so they say it's like drinking from a fire

42:32hose right and if um if you get behind uh you're just you're not you're

42:40probably not going to be able to catch up i mean because the way that

42:43the training program is built it's like for the average student you get to an

42:48end of block you take that check ride and then you move on to the

42:53next block and there's no not much slop uh for you to do remedial training

42:59you know so you're just vit like the hanging from the wingtips you know barely

43:04and uh this program was the absolute most brutal experience of my life i get

43:11to my first check ride and just bomb it so wow i was i had

43:16come from the navy so i was not really yet spun up on the way

43:21the air force did things and i'm just kind of getting a handle flying the

43:25jet and um i'm learning how they deal with emergency procedures and it's um and

43:32i just get absolutely crushed wow so now there's six guys right and four of

43:37us are probably going to fly you fighters and maybe want to get an A

43:41-10. And at that time, the way I saw it was I either get an

43:45A -10 or I am an abject failure and I don't want to do anything

43:49else. Just that, that kind of obsessive mindset.

43:54And so the rest of that program, um, it was just agonizing.

44:02In what way? The, the pressure, the, the, was the, was the skillset agonizing?

44:08It was difficult. It was difficult airplane to fly.

44:12Um, the, you know, you look back on it and you're like, the skills you're

44:17learning are just the basics, but at the time it's all new and it's going

44:22so fast. And you're moving like the, the, the, the, the, the sheer speed alone,

44:28right? You're, I've had it described to me as just if, if you have a

44:35doubt, you're too late, right?

44:38Like here's how I'd explain it.

44:41So when you, there's procedures you do for every phase of flight, right?

44:46And like my first flight in a T -38, I'm still thinking about my pre

44:51-takeoff checks and the jets already like in the airspace and I'm like, it's like

44:57CPU overload, you know, like it just happens so fast.

45:02Like all, you know, all the switches you need to throw gear flaps, change the

45:07radio, do all this. And you're like, how can I ever do this?

45:11It's key. It's right. It's a, another person described like this to me, going from

45:19college football to pro football.

45:22It's probably similar, right? The speed is like nothing you can comprehend until you're at

45:28that speed. And then it's like, I have to figure out how to stay at

45:32this speed, right? Cognitively, right?

45:35Processing everything in, in, in not just in an effective way, but like in a,

45:43in an offensive way to where now you're, your head.

45:46Yeah. You're head of the game.

45:47And so what was that process?

45:49Yeah. I mean, you're basically like rewiring your brain to do something kind of insane.

45:54So to do that is very painful, especially in a short period of time.

45:59Right. So you can only do that with extreme stress.

46:02It's like the, the iron in the fire forging it.

46:06Right. And what's interesting about this process is it like melts down everybody's ego.

46:15And then I like, it reveals your true self.

46:18Like they, they find out what you're made of.

46:22And if you have a weakness that you kind of papered over previously and it

46:28wasn't discovered, they're going to find it and exploit it and crush you and wash

46:32you out because of it.

46:33Interesting. Like I remember for, for in ours, they would expose like your, your inability

46:43to be team centric and your focus when you were in excruciating pain and that's

46:50what they would pick at.

46:51Right. And so you're miserable, you're freezing, you're, you know, your hands are swollen and

46:57it's like, they'll put a guy next to you who's worse and needs help.

47:01And you're like, fuck you, man.

47:03I'm going to just sit over here by myself and make, get through my own

47:07agony. So how do they do it with you?

47:09How do they induce those places to expose?

47:14Yeah. Just if you have a weakness, they're going to hammer it.

47:18You're not going to, so say there's a profile and maybe you suck at one

47:22particular thing and you're not going to get away with not like mastering it.

47:30You know what I mean?

47:31They're not going to just gloss over it.

47:33Yeah. Okay. That's good enough.

47:34There is no such thing as good enough.

47:36Yeah. And I saw like, um, people who had a hard time taking feedback.

47:43Yeah. You know, I had a really good friend.

47:45I won't call him out with too much details, but he was like top engineering

47:50student, you know, honor grad cadet wing commander, a whole life full of success.

47:58And he got into pilot training and, um, he had a really hard time not

48:05being told you're great at the end of the day.

48:08You know, I think it really ate at him and it, it bothered him so

48:12much. I think the instructors started sensing it.

48:16So they did it worse and he couldn't sleep at night and he just kind

48:20of melted down and ended up self eliminating.

48:23Oh wow. And he wouldn't have a great career in another career field because it

48:26wasn't for him. But if there's any personality problem, any selfishness, ego, it just, it

48:34gets revealed. Was there, was there camaraderie though?

48:39Was there a peer support?

48:41I mean, you're all in this very intense, high stress, you know, vetting process.

48:48How did you guys support each other?

48:50So yeah, now we're with six, six dudes and we're just kind of in it

48:54together. And I'm still with my buddy, John and we just, yeah, you, you, it's

48:59like you against your team of the students against the instructors.

49:02Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. And so - It must have been everything from, you know,

49:09you leave the schoolhouse, come back, you guys sitting debriefing with each other.

49:14What what did you do different?

49:16What did you do different?

49:17Oh, I did this. Did you do this?

49:18What did that instructor say?

49:19I mean, we used to sit around for seemingly like hours to say, all right,

49:24if you're if you get this instructor and he starts saying and if you do

49:29this, like, don't do this while he's in front of you.

49:31Was it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, cool.

49:34You're great. You're the best friends of your life.

49:37Yeah. You know, and then on into the A -10.

49:39But all the people you train with, you have a bond with.

49:43That's cool. That's really cool.

49:44And I think that's a component of it's a component of the the validation that

49:55we need. Right. Because it's yeah, you want obviously you want the validation of your

50:00instructors because then you pass and get to do what you want to do.

50:02But it's like that peer evaluation.

50:04Like, no, man, you're good.

50:06Like, you're legit. Like, you're good.

50:08You deserve to be here.

50:09You know, tell me about when you when they said, all right, you you're going

50:13to be an A -10 pilot.

50:14Yeah. So it's another moment of truth.

50:17Right. I my instructor or my flight commander had told me there were no A

50:21-10s in my drop and he knew how bad I wanted it.

50:25And, you know, not only did I want to fly the A -10, I wanted

50:27to do close air support.

50:29And so, you know, I told him that if I didn't get an A -10,

50:34I was going to cross commission to the Marines.

50:37And I found this because I was already planning what I was going to do

50:40if I didn't get an A -10.

50:42Plan B. And he just laughed at me.

50:44He's like, yeah, that is a program on the books.

50:46The Air Force is never going to approve you to do that.

50:49I'm just seething. Yeah, that's funny.

50:53And then come to find out.

50:56So there's multiple pilot training bases.

50:58He called another flight commander at another base and they did a swap.

51:03So they gave an F -15E strike eagle to them, took their A -10.

51:07And then I found out I got to go fly the hog.

51:10So there was someone who orchestrated that for you.

51:14Yep. That's cool. That's really cool.

51:16That stroke of luck or that stroke of not it wasn't luck because it was

51:21a conscious decision to get you where you wanted to go.

51:25What's that? That's got to feel amazing.

51:27Like somebody that moves an F -15.

51:31It's not like it's simple.

51:32You're not just like, hey, this guy's about ready to retire.

51:36It's like, no, we're going to swap physical airplanes so you can go achieve this.

51:41Yeah. I mean, it was just somebody, you know, his call sign was Dragon.

51:45Great guy. Of course it was.

51:48Yeah. He just took the time and effort to do that.

51:52And it's something you'll never forget.

51:54You'll always appreciate that. And I bet that really resonated with you as now you

51:59moved into this, like you're operational.

52:02And as you climb that proverbial ladder of responsibility too, those are the lessons you

52:07never forget, right? As you gain command, right?

52:11I guess. Yeah. You always remember the good ones and the bad ones.

52:15Yeah. And you're like, I want to be like that guy whenever I have the

52:20sway to do so. Right.

52:22That's cool. All right. So when was the moment where now they're like, all right,

52:28you're going to go to combat?

52:30And what was that like?

52:31What year was that? Yeah.

52:32So I finished A -10 school in 2005, got to my first unit in Alaska

52:39and I get there and no one's there because they're already in Afghanistan.

52:43Wow. So before you're combat mission ready, you do a little local spin up.

52:49There was an instructor, stayed home.

52:52He was just deployed previously.

52:54Another great guy named Gecko, but his wife, I think he had a new baby.

52:58So they left him at home and it was just him, one guy at the

53:01squadron. And so he trained me up and I got fully qualified.

53:07And I'm just chomping at the bit to get down range.

53:11You know, 9 -11 happened when I was in college and I'm just like, I

53:15just wanted to get in a fight.

53:17I'm like, this thing's going to wrap up.

53:19Right. That's what everybody felt for those first like six years.

53:23I think it was like 06, 07.

53:25Everybody's like, oh, this isn't ending.

53:27Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I'm going to be the only A -10

53:32pilot of my generation with no combat bona fides, you know?

53:36Oh, my gosh. So I'm like chomping at the bit to get down there.

53:40My commander, he's like, no, dude, you're too inexperienced.

53:46And we're already halfway through our deployment.

53:50And so just hang tight and you'll get in on the next one.

53:53And I'm just like, like that wasn't okay with me.

53:57Yeah. And then so something happened down range.

53:59I heard, I don't even know the details, but somebody got busted for some operation.

54:06And did something wrong. Yeah.

54:08And they sent his ass home.

54:09And I heard through the rumor mill that morale was low and everyone was just

54:14kind of at each other's throats.

54:16Yeah. That kind of mid -deployment.

54:17Mid -deployment malaise, right? And so I'm like, I'm going to throw a Hail Mary.

54:22And I sent an email to my commander and I'm like, hey, sir, I know

54:25you said that I can't come, but I've got an idea.

54:30I'm going to get, I want to get a giant cooler and I want to

54:33fill it up with. Okay.

54:34Thank you. alaskan salmon halibut you know elk steaks i'll deep freeze it i'll get

54:40um i'll get dry ice and we can have an alaska cookout and that was

54:47my pitch and i'm you know like and i you know i just i just

54:51want to get down range i'm like i'll sweep floors i'll do mission planning i

54:55i just want to participate yeah and he's he wrote back he's like all right

55:00get your ass out here how long did it take you to get the all

55:04the stuff together yeah i just like so in alaska like when you show up

55:09they give you like an alaska starter pack yeah yeah like a big box full

55:13of like alaska everything yeah and so i just went around to all everyone's house

55:18where all the deployed people and i'm like hey contribute a few yeah that's cool

55:22that's cool and so i like lugged this massive cooler from fairbanks alaska all the

55:29way down the world down range and so what was that moment like i mean

55:34getting on the ground 05 you said and now it's 06 06 okay 06 and

55:40afghanistan it almost because of the intensity of fallujah ramadi that the the the insurgency

55:47you know it seemed those were interesting years in afghanistan but you guys were still

55:54working a ton weren't you yeah i you know i didn't employ any weapons in

56:00that uh deployment it just kind of ebbed and flowed and it was kind of

56:04like you know they're building up you start you know that insurgency was growing right

56:08right and so it's kind of that transition point from okay i mean it was

56:13i would say well into the insurgency but yeah it's kind of like you're saying

56:17you realize oh this is going to be a long war yeah yeah but yeah

56:21it was just a great experience i flew on the wing of the most experienced

56:25a10 pilots you know because yeah they wanted to keep a close eye on me

56:29yeah he's the new guy yeah and so yeah it was just incredible i remember

56:33you know and it hits you too i mean shortly after i got there you

56:38know there's um casualties you know they come in um then they do the ramp

56:45ceremony you see the flag draped coffins and you're like hey this isn't you know

56:51this isn't training anymore people are depending on us yeah so yeah just it hit

56:56me and um i remember like one of the first things i was informed i

57:03was like you know there's a few people out there that you know you'll live

57:08to you'll learn to live to love and and one of them are your a10

57:12pilots right that's what we live for that's right it's like that that those your

57:17uh your apaches right those guys that are yeah the medevac you're right the people

57:23are on those those those dust off birds like there's groups of pilots that really

57:28embody that that the extension of of the commitment right and and that's a an

57:35important piece just instilled in the community yeah from day one day it's like we

57:40will support these guys yeah you know you kind of get that ground perspective and

57:46it's like we're gonna we're gonna support you or we're gonna die trying that's right

57:50that's the mindset that's so cool so after you got back from that deployment how

57:54soon before you ramped back up and went back over uh so it was a

57:58while so after that uh i went i got home i finished up that tour

58:03and just training in alaska and then i went to south korea did a year

58:07out there okay just flying the dmz and yep was that interesting yeah it was

58:13a great experience um yeah just korea is awesome it's a cool culture yeah really

58:18uh it's a lot of partying and drinking because everyone's there remote away from their

58:23family yeah and so um plus the koreans drink pretty hard too yeah yeah and

58:30uh at that point though um i um so i had back and neck issues

58:37going back to when i was a wrestler and a skateboarder and stuff just a

58:41lot of battle damage from my age yeah and then i'm out in korea and

58:45you have all the gear you know all the survival gear harness all the stuff

58:49attached to it you've got your helmet night vision goggles and you're just getting you

58:54know as you're pulling g -forces you're getting compressed all the time yeah you're you

58:59know looking behind you pulling you know the human body is designed to do a

59:03lot of things but not what we do but not just get scrunched consummate g

59:09-forces yeah i just the the impact of it like i i've been in one

59:14ride with a a friend of my father's wealthy guy bought two migs when the

59:20sell -off oh cool and got to go up in one of those things and

59:22we did like a one of these seven g things like this and afterwards i'm

59:27just like no way man i was like the impact of that as a career

59:33is so intense right this what it does to your body so yeah you start

59:39experiencing all this yeah so like still to this day i've got like numb fingers

59:45like and i started like so um a few months into that tour like one

59:51day i go to put my flight suit on and i literally can't tie my

59:55boot and as a pilot the last thing in the world you want to do

1:00:00is is to the flight dock you just avoid it because you don't want to

1:00:04get grounded right but you know i put it off um in in uh korea

1:00:11i was a ford air controller and so um you're very useful there for all

1:00:15these training exercises and stuff so i was just flying my ass off so i'm

1:00:19having the time of my life and um but you know i flew as much

1:00:24as like 20 sorties in a month which is quite a bit wow that's a

1:00:29lot yeah and uh and i'm you know my mentality i'm not gonna slow down

1:00:34and so my body basically one day was just like i'm done you're you i

1:00:40can't tie my boot how can i how can i go fly today right and

1:00:44uh so i went to the flight doc and they do the mris and everything

1:00:48and he's like oh man you've got like terrible degenerative discs and you've got this

1:00:54pinched nerve and all these things and yeah you're you're grounded like and it's going

1:00:59to be for a while so at this time i felt like um you know

1:01:06i had achieved everything i ever wanted to achieve but i'm just second assigned assignment

1:01:12into this i'm not ready to be done yeah yeah and uh so they gave

1:01:16me an option they're like you can't fly an ejection seat because if you go

1:01:2020 g's if you have to pull the handles you're going to be toast yeah

1:01:24paralyzed right yeah like it yeah like it's you just can't you're not ejection seat

1:01:31qualified wow so i had to swallow that tough pill and they gave me two

1:01:36options they said you can go fly um these small isr airplanes for uh afsoc

1:01:43so air force special operations command and if you do that you will never come

1:01:48back to the a10 because that's a different magic com even if you get healthy

1:01:52and okay and like or you can go fly the mq9 which will fall under

1:01:58air combat command and if you do that um if you get can get healthy

1:02:05then you can apply for a waiver and try to get back to the a10

1:02:10at the end of that assignment so that's what i did yeah so did my

1:02:14year in korea finished that out and um you know was grounded for like the

1:02:19last couple months which was just miserable i'm watching my buddies fly all day you

1:02:25want to contribute and you just feel like a piece of shit yeah it's interesting

1:02:29that sense of let that you're letting your team down you're letting you know and

1:02:35it's like you you can't help but go like i didn't do what i needed

1:02:41to do to take care of my body so i could not let my team

1:02:44down right wherever you go you go back to the place of i failed you

1:02:49just feel you're like you just feel weak you're like i couldn't do it but

1:02:53they could what's wrong with me right right so uh but then from there i

1:02:58went to vegas and did uh the next four years flying the mq9 hey it's

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1:06:00How was that? Was that interesting?

1:06:02Yeah, the way I describe it is, um, it's like take all of the tasks

1:06:08of flying close air support because we did very similar missions in Afghanistan, but strip

1:06:14away everything you love about it and just leave the tasks.

1:06:17And that's what it is.

1:06:18And that's what it is.

1:06:19That's what it is. It's all the checklists.

1:06:21It's employing weapons. It's talking on the radio.

1:06:24But it's not, you know, walking out to the flight line, feeling sun on your

1:06:30face, smelling the jet fuel, smelling the gun gas.

1:06:33Feeling the G's. Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:36Wow. I never imagined it like that.

1:06:39Like, I guess I never imagined that pilots, like, you know, or, you know, you

1:06:44always imagine it's some, you know, dorky kid that learned how to do it as

1:06:49a hobby, but it's real pilots.

1:06:52Yeah. Well, now they have, they have, it was a newer program at that time

1:06:56and it was a high demand asset because they did amazing work.

1:07:01I mean, it saved a ton of lives.

1:07:03All the IDs, the rocket emplacers, just general security, route clearance, like, so many lives

1:07:11saved. I get it now, you know, that was ramping up.

1:07:15And they were, at that time, they were just pulling fighter pilots, heavy pilots, bomber

1:07:20pilots. And they were just, they would, like, go to squadrons and be like, you

1:07:23will send me six pilots.

1:07:25Right now. And they're leaving tomorrow, practically, you know.

1:07:28Wait, what? So you're just some dude in your fighter squadron and you're going to

1:07:31fly. Wow. You, you know, unmanned.

1:07:33Yeah. And now the program has evolved beyond that and they have their own training

1:07:38pipeline. Right, right. So they don't just ruin fighter pilots anymore.

1:07:42Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whole squadrons get destroyed, right?

1:07:45Yeah. But I look back on that time as probably one of the most impactful

1:07:51times of my life because instead of deploying for four months or deploying for six

1:07:57months, I was in the fight with my brain for the whole tour.

1:08:04Four years. So I watched that war unfold for four years.

1:08:07Wow. And so you get really good at studying insurgency.

1:08:12Yeah. I mean, I could, we could throw the sensor onto somebody walking and you

1:08:17could instantly see if they're walking a little suspicious or if there's a pixel sticking

1:08:22up out of their, uh, over garment.

1:08:25It doesn't look quite right.

1:08:26It's probably an AK -47 underneath there and let's watch them.

1:08:30And you just, you know, you learn a lot about how they were.

1:08:33Attention to the details, right?

1:08:35At another level. Yeah. Yeah, because you're like, you don't have the distractions of the

1:08:42physical pain or wherever. So it becomes, it becomes a derivative of how focused you

1:08:49can be. That superpower. Oh, I'm going to get so focused.

1:08:53I'm going to understand their tactics, their movements, their coordination, how they fight.

1:08:59And then I'm going to bring everything that I've learned against that.

1:09:03That's really cool. Yeah. And, you know, once, um, I accepted just getting kicked in

1:09:09the junk, right. And my ego was bruised.

1:09:13I mean, I, you know, when you, when you go from a fighter squadron to

1:09:17a UAV squadron, your, your buddy's like, it's like you have AIDS or something and

1:09:24they might catch it from you.

1:09:26Yeah. Yeah. Like everyone's like, I don't know what happened.

1:09:29I don't want it to happen to me.

1:09:32Yeah. And so it's, it destroys your ego.

1:09:35Right. But I quickly shifted my mindset.

1:09:39I was like in the eight, 10, they hammer into you.

1:09:42It's all about the guys on the ground.

1:09:44It's not about you. It's about bringing Americans home.

1:09:48Right. And I'm like, if I truly believe that I will take everything I've learned

1:09:52up to this point. And I will use this new tool that's been given to

1:09:57me and I will use it to the best of my ability.

1:10:00And at that time there wasn't a ton of close air support experience in the,

1:10:05in the unmanned squadrons. So, you know, and I, I just came as a forward

1:10:11air controller in Korea with, uh, Afghanistan experience.

1:10:15So, um, before long, I'm like lazing in bombs from, uh, F -16s, controlling the

1:10:23stack, pulling people in and out.

1:10:25And, um, my squadron commander is like, okay, you are a flight commander.

1:10:29You're an instructor. You're an evaluator.

1:10:32You're like all of that at one time.

1:10:34He's like, you're going to do all of these things.

1:10:36He's like, you have, you're like, you're going to get all these quals and you're

1:10:40going to help me build this program, build this program.

1:10:44Wow. And so, um, again, I just had to put the ego aside and say,

1:10:49it's interesting that you talk about it like that.

1:10:51I put the thing that's going to restrict the greatest growth I could have off

1:10:55to the side. And then the great.

1:10:57Greatest growth comes to me naturally because that those people who are what like, like

1:11:02EM says, we're always being assessed, right?

1:11:05You're always being assessed. They see your ability to subdue that thing, which for most

1:11:11of us is always the thing that gets in the way of our greatest achievements.

1:11:16You subdue that. And then all of a sudden he's like, here, you get everything

1:11:21and more in this new role and build this, you know, critical aspect of modern

1:11:27warfare. Yeah. And, you know, now I'm there, like we were working six on, one

1:11:33off. So six days a week, we're just so undermanned.

1:11:37And now it's 2000, basically 2009 through 2012.

1:11:42And so, you know, through this surge, through the Marines in Southern Afghanistan, heavy fighting.

1:11:50Yeah. And so, you know, um, I was in Afghanistan for some of that and

1:11:55it was just crazy. All the complex base attacks they were trying to, trying to

1:11:59pull. And, and so it was like, yeah, this is, uh, I'm not happy about

1:12:05it, but right now it's not about me.

1:12:07It's about those guys down range.

1:12:09Yeah. And, you know, so I accepted it, but I never gave up that I

1:12:14wanted to go back to the 810.

1:12:16Right. And so at that time, they're like, uh, they're, when we got there, they're

1:12:21like, um, we know we told you that you have an opportunity to go back

1:12:26to your former community. Um, and we didn't lie, but the truth changed.

1:12:31I remember that line. We didn't lie, but the truth changed.

1:12:35Oh my God. They're like, you are now an MQ9 asset and you need to

1:12:41accept it. And you're going to go and teach at the MQ9 schoolhouse.

1:12:45Wow. And this is what, this is your new life.

1:12:48And, uh, I just, I didn't accept that, but I combined it with an insane

1:12:53work ethic. Yeah. And so just, again, I finished up that tour and in another

1:13:00miracle and a small window, uh, they, um, let a couple of guys go back

1:13:07to their former communities. And now I had let my body rest for four years

1:13:11and I had done physical therapy and I had a bunch of injections and all

1:13:16that inflammation was down quite a bit.

1:13:19And I'm like, I'm feeling pretty good.

1:13:20Got a waiver and got back to the 810.

1:13:23Oh, that must've been exciting.

1:13:24Yeah. Right. And so what was that next?

1:13:27I mean, now you have this breadth of experience responsibilities.

1:13:32Like, I mean, at what, what rank were you at this point?

1:13:35Um, so now I think I'm like a senior captain, major select.

1:13:39So I pinned on major right around that time.

1:13:43Wow. So like you're now like back to where you wanted to be, but even

1:13:48at a more substantial level, how did you manage that?

1:13:52Was it a different, um, um, a difference, like going back to those leaders who

1:14:00saw in you, like, is that what you were trying to model at that time?

1:14:04Or were you just really focused about getting back in that aircraft?

1:14:07Yeah. So I was, I was having to kind of catch up on time lost

1:14:12too, you know? So being out of the jet that long, the airplane had transitioned

1:14:16from the 810A model to the 810C model.

1:14:19So we went from steam gauges and we had this weapons panel with like analog.

1:14:25So you select your weapon, you put the delay, the, you know, you tune everything

1:14:30in right there. It's like a physical switch.

1:14:33Wow. Wow. And now it's all digital.

1:14:35Right. And now we have a targeting pod and GPS guided munitions and all this

1:14:39new tech. So, um, so getting back, I went to an operational squadron and it

1:14:45was just like, I need to keep that focus and get my quals, get, you

1:14:50know, two ship, four ship and instructor pilot qualified.

1:14:54So I can kind of catch up to my peers who never left the airplane.

1:14:58Wow. So if that's a, that much farther ahead than you were.

1:15:01Yeah. A lot of the guys that I had started with were now instructors, you

1:15:05know, and I'm like kind of, I had a lot of experience, but I was

1:15:10rusty in the jet. So I had to spend a couple of years, just a

1:15:13hundred percent focused on flying again.

1:15:15And then again, I had a great commander and, um, he kind of put me

1:15:22back on a normal career trajectory in the 810.

1:15:26Okay. So that must've felt good.

1:15:28Yeah. Like you had done your time, right?

1:15:32Whatever that pathway is that took you out over here.

1:15:35And now you're back on that path again.

1:15:37That must've been, I just had so many kind of miracles in my career where

1:15:42like, it's just, it's, it's incredible that I was able to kind of, you know,

1:15:47I dealt with some things that I didn't want to do, did them as best

1:15:50as I could. And then overall.

1:15:52Well, that's what I always try and tell guys, because there's a lot of things

1:15:56that I fought against in my career unnecessarily because of that ego.

1:16:00And like, I tell young kids now, like, Hey, just whatever you're doing, feel grateful

1:16:06that you get to do what you're doing.

1:16:09And then if you do it really well, at some point, someone will be like,

1:16:14Hey, you did really well.

1:16:16Here's your reward. Yeah. Bloom where you're planted.

1:16:18That's right. That's right. That's right.

1:16:20It's not like in retrospect, it looks like it all worked out.

1:16:23Perfect. If you were to live it it wouldn't have felt that way you know

1:16:27but i think if you do put that work in it usually seems to work

1:16:31out that was my experience yeah so after you're back how many more times did

1:16:37you deploy yeah so i go back in 2014 yeah and now um i'm you

1:16:43know flight lead got all the quals and stuff and um got to do everything

1:16:48i always wanted to do yeah you know support those troops and contacts and that

1:16:53was an interesting time too because that was like what it was during isis build

1:16:57up and it was you know kind of a shift more towards like northern and

1:17:01syria and those areas and so but the mission for you guys doesn't change right

1:17:07it just doesn't matter what terrain it is it's really just about that support troops

1:17:11in contact you report to it yeah get the dope and yeah yeah that's cool

1:17:17can you can you tell one story that you know you supported guys on the

1:17:22ground and then you were able to either meet those guys or meet you know

1:17:27the ground commander or whatever it was to where you could bring a face to

1:17:31you know that that beautiful a10 coming up behind you right yeah i mean you

1:17:37you would see the guys on occasion back at bagram and they they were stoked

1:17:42you'd swap patches and stuff that's cool and just looking them in the eye yeah

1:17:46you know you you have that camaraderie yeah that connection right yeah the link the

1:17:52link that takes place you know i think you know although the the mission sets

1:17:58are are there's a there's there's different right obviously the path to achieve competency and

1:18:06those mission sets are similar but once they overlap with each other and that that

1:18:11that that dedicated support of one another it fuses it right it makes it interrelational

1:18:17right to where that pure um that pure bond doesn't matter that you're in an

1:18:24a 10 squadron or seal team or an oda team it's like man it's that

1:18:28brotherhood that coexists and absolutely yeah that's really cool um so how long did you

1:18:34get to fly before they made you uh become the boss yeah take over so

1:18:38it was amazing i pretty much got to fly the rest of my career wow

1:18:42so after that tour i became an instructor for the new students yeah coming in

1:18:47uh out in tucson at the at the school a10 schoolhouse i just i love

1:18:52that assignment you know you it's like you know you see yourself and how fired

1:18:57up you were at that time some people didn't enjoy it they thought it was

1:19:01too basic yeah you know and but i loved it i'm like yeah i love

1:19:05teaching if we're just flying around the flagpole on their first sortie yeah that's kind

1:19:10of boring for me but this kid it's the first time he's ever flown this

1:19:15jet this is awesome did you run into any kids that were like you that

1:19:19had been air crew and were fighting to become pilots and in that trajectory at

1:19:25all i don't know it's yeah i don't think i met any former crew chiefs

1:19:29they're there they happened i knew some like in the squadrons but it was pretty

1:19:34rare okay but yeah just that that's when you're telling me that that i was

1:19:38like that seems like it's so rare that that actually it comes to fruition i

1:19:42think a lot of kids or young people are like oh i would love to

1:19:45go fly they just don't have the focus and the determination to jump through all

1:19:51the different hoops to get there right yeah yeah i think they make the application

1:19:56process so such a pain in the ass because that's like the first level of

1:20:01filtering that's right you're not willing to jump through all these hoops you don't want

1:20:05it bad enough that you don't want it bad enough that's cool that's cool to

1:20:08and that's a critical lesson right i think that's one of the biggest lessons that

1:20:13could ever be taught right and seems to escape so many different levels of instruction

1:20:19right some i think in some athletics you can it's it's easy to implement that

1:20:25type of of of filtration but like most other places it just doesn't exist right

1:20:31it's like you'll finagle your way to a position where you're meeting the minimum standard

1:20:38right and that's what it is right yeah exactly right um all right so at

1:20:43what point did you determine like this is it like i'm i'm i know i'm

1:20:48done and that's it yeah so um i ended up as a squadron commander it

1:20:55was of a range a training range out in florida which was cool you know

1:20:59it's it's not where they're going to send their commanders that are going to be

1:21:02future four -star generals yeah yeah but um to even be a squadron commander from

1:21:06where i came from i was very it's impressive i was blessed yeah yeah that

1:21:11really is a uh there's a uh uh there's got to be a a substantial

1:21:16sense of of um um gratitude yeah that you can ascend and be in a

1:21:24place where they're like hey dale we're gonna make you the squadron commander of this

1:21:27like it's a true um acknowledgement right yeah it was it was amazing and then

1:21:34um you know coming near the end of that assignment is when you kind of

1:21:39have to make a decision are you going to continue or or do you want

1:21:44to start planning on your next career yeah so my uh group commander called me

1:21:49in and um we talked about uh going to school so air war college yeah

1:21:55and it's not that i was like this great officer but i think at a

1:21:59lot that time a lot of guys were going to the airlines yeah so he's

1:22:02like hey like where do you want to go to air war college like here

1:22:05are the timing the options and uh at that time i've got two young girls

1:22:10you know now they're growing getting a little bit older and i start to see

1:22:13kind of the um uh the impact all the moves they're having on them yeah

1:22:19you know when they're little it's not so bad can't tell now they're making friends

1:22:22and then you're moving again and um and covid hit so now the whole world

1:22:29is really weird and um just started really thinking about what i want to do

1:22:34and if you go the 06 path you know you're going to spend probably 10

1:22:39months at school and you're going to go to staff for a year maybe two

1:22:44and then they're going to look for you an 06 command and then you have

1:22:48to like wear the rank for i think two years before you can retire in

1:22:51it so i'm like this is like a five -year commitment yeah i'm like i

1:22:55can get out at the end of my commitment and um uh and they're still

1:23:01relatively young and they can have a normal childhood still so that was really the

1:23:07deciding factor did you ever have the contemplation like because it seems to me like

1:23:11the and what i'm interpreting as you briefly described this is like man the the

1:23:17the principle the defining principle drive was to get in that aircraft and fly it

1:23:23yeah it was not to move into an 06 or run a command or get

1:23:29to the pentagon or the you know any of that yeah it doesn't seem like

1:23:33that i had accomplished everything i ever dreamed of now um and so yeah i

1:23:40never was motivated by rank or position and so the thought of um kind of

1:23:46you know once you get above 05 it's kind of more political gamesmanship and yeah

1:23:52it just didn't appeal to me and i i honestly am probably a pretty pretty

1:23:56crappy staff officer i hate making powerpoints and slaving away at the screen budgets yeah

1:24:03yeah i like willed myself to do it as squadron commander just to do right

1:24:08by my people yeah but it wasn't a natural fit and so i i think

1:24:13for a lot of reasons i just knew it was time it was time yeah

1:24:16so often i think you know there's a um there's a long -term focus that

1:24:23had been that's always a um it seems to always float around veterans which is

1:24:33the idea of the transition and the idea of like what next and how do

1:24:38i how do i separate from this mindset you know and and then i would

1:24:44imagine in in where you got to like it's so intense and it's so critical

1:24:51and it's so there's such a profound it's such a significant asset to the mission

1:24:57right so you're there you're there and you're engaged and you're teaching and you're flying

1:25:02and then all of a sudden you know you separate and you kind of have

1:25:06that and it lingers it lingers and then it just starts to fade off and

1:25:11goes into this other space what was that what was that like for you so

1:25:15like post -retirement yeah yeah yeah still kind of going through it i guess yeah

1:25:20right it's not that long ago in the window for sure i was like man

1:25:25he's still kind of there right yeah it's a tough it's a you know it's

1:25:29it's great yeah i mean i feel like at the end of my career i

1:25:32was kind of like a spent round yeah kind of physically emotionally yeah yeah just

1:25:37just done you know i didn't have anything left well the focus the main the

1:25:42maintaining of that focus that you talked about in the beginning of the mindset shift

1:25:47no this is my life you know and clay had talked about it's a lifestyle

1:25:52like you are all in on this lifestyle and you're going to live it you're

1:25:56going to live it the best that you can live it and you're going to

1:25:59stick with it as long as you can and then the exhaustion that inevitably presents

1:26:05itself because for me they always manifest my physical limitations that emerged right or the

1:26:11you know the the whether it was the tbi or whatever it might have been

1:26:15right it was like man there's some aspects of that that i'm i can't run

1:26:20from anymore and so did you begin to experience some of the decline of focus

1:26:27or the fatigue or all those other things i think so i mean um the

1:26:33kind of the way i describe it is have you ever ran with someone who's

1:26:37just way more fit than you right yeah yeah so like yeah they're running and

1:26:42they're at 140 beats per minute yeah and you're at like 170 beats per minute

1:26:46so for me to keep up in this career field with like the capabilities i

1:26:52brought to the table i was running at like 170 beats per minute right for

1:26:5720 years yeah yeah where people that were just smarter and more capable were at

1:27:01like 140 yes probably better than me still yeah and so yeah by the after

1:27:0620 years i was freaking trashed right and um i couldn't couldn't do it anymore

1:27:12so as you know you know we moved back home moved out to oregon and

1:27:17i think it took me like six to nine months before i even realized how

1:27:25much stress i was holding on to yeah like oh i don't my phone's not

1:27:30gonna ring and i'm gonna have to go get my crap and get going you

1:27:34know what i mean like you're just so wired in a certain way of thinking

1:27:38yeah and so uh you know i still still i'm working on just kind of

1:27:44adapting to my my new life well what we what we do is we i

1:27:50think there's a lot of guys that have a tendency to replace that stress for

1:27:54another stress and so you know you've got a working farm you know you you're

1:27:59you log right you're raising children right you're staying active right you've got this you

1:28:06know uh um whether you want to believe it or not substantial presence on social

1:28:12media and influence now i although i hate that word but like it's you know

1:28:17there there's a role that all of that has given you and into this new

1:28:22space is it you find yourself and we talked a little bit about some of

1:28:27the opportunities that have been presented to you recently and and and you know the

1:28:32the how that would get you back to something similar to the old lifestyle but

1:28:39then you also realize the power and the gratitude of of what you do have

1:28:43and the pace that you're in control of now so yeah you know they always

1:28:48try to bring you back right more opportunities come up yeah they want to suck

1:28:52you back in every time yeah um you know now i'm just really focusing on

1:28:58like having like a good life is made up of a whole bunch of good

1:29:03days stacked together right so instead of getting um kind of you know thinking too

1:29:10far in the future and well maybe i can do this and make this much

1:29:14money that's insane right like it's like well no like can i wake up spend

1:29:21time with my family feed my animals go surfing come home do some work yeah

1:29:27you know spend so you hang out with my friends who i've been friends with

1:29:31since high school yeah yeah so um yeah i'm just trying to be more intentional

1:29:36yeah i think um when i took off on that journey i like shut out

1:29:43huge portions of my my brain you know what i mean and it was just

1:29:47single focus on this one thing and then you get done and you start to

1:29:52kind of unpack you know more issues that maybe you're running from when you started

1:29:58when you're 19 that's right so now i'm just kind of um just like the

1:30:04kids say touch grass right get regrounded yeah but yeah we do i think type

1:30:10a personality you have a tendency to keep keep striving right put put fill it

1:30:15with some new ambition right yeah and to be honest i haven't fully figured out

1:30:20what that's going to look like you you know i mean from my perspective of

1:30:24of just i mean very limited understanding i i i have of you but what

1:30:30i'm able to interpret you know it is like man you you are doing those

1:30:37things you are able to you know sit there and and appreciate right what you

1:30:45have and what you what you get to have right because of what you earned

1:30:50before and now like the choice is yours as to what's going to take place

1:30:55tomorrow or today or whatever you know and that's powerful yeah you know now i'm

1:31:00working with my dad and his leather shop i can't i by the way i

1:31:04cannot wait to order i want to order like two of those belts before you

1:31:07go for it's cool you know it's like um it's it's i feel like what

1:31:13i'm doing right now when in a decade i'm going to look back and say

1:31:18that was time well spent so that's that's really my focus that's awesome and then

1:31:22one last question because i would be letting down our entire surfing community if i

1:31:28didn't ask why is surfing so important to you and what does it help you

1:31:33um what does it help you do in the grander context of your life yeah

1:31:38so surfing's the one thing i've pretty much held on to my entire life you

1:31:43know other than when i was in the air force but you know my dad

1:31:46taught me how to surf when i was a little kid and um and then

1:31:51we still surf together now and it's just it's it's hard to explain you sound

1:31:56like the guy from you know spicoli when you talk about it this is sore

1:32:01bodie thank you bodie yeah yeah but it's like man you just it's literally is

1:32:07the greatest i think thing you can do i mean you're immersed in the ocean

1:32:13which is filled with minerals right and you're absorbing them in your skin you're getting

1:32:18that sunlight in your eyes and you're just riding the energy of the ocean and

1:32:23it like you're not thinking about the past you're not thinking about the future you're

1:32:28just locked in yeah yeah and then when you're waiting for the sets you're having

1:32:33good conversations with your buddies and uh you know i think a lot of middle

1:32:37aged guys as you get older um a lot of times it's just work you

1:32:43know family responsibilities a lot of your friendships fall by the wayside and uh you

1:32:50know a lot of maybe the physical things you do getting out of your mind

1:32:54and getting into your body you just kind of can let those things go too

1:32:58so surfing is just my outlet for um for all of that and and what's

1:33:04great about is it's super low impact you know there's no you don't see many

1:33:08like 40 year old skateboarders no they're out there but 50 or 60 yeah right

1:33:14tony's the freak out there right right yeah so but you like i surf all

1:33:19the time with guys in their 70s and even older yeah um because you land

1:33:24in the water so it's something you can do the rest of your life so

1:33:27yeah i love it that's awesome well dale thank you so much and i'm looking

1:33:32forward to tonight man all right thanks for having me brother yeah absolutely thank you

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