The Manosphere Report

0:24How am I sounding? Yeah, I'm going to definitely have to turn on.

0:30I had two breakfast tacos today.

0:35Are you talking quietly on purpose?

0:38No. I'm going to have trouble hearing you.

0:41I'll talk louder. This is the register of the podcast.

0:46Okay, so it's like NPR.

0:48Hello. Hi. All right. So I should take my voice down.

0:53It's okay. Yeah, it's fine.

0:55We'll mix it. Testing. One, two, three.

1:00This is the register of the podcast.

1:02No, you just talk the way you want to talk.

1:04Yeah. You can like figure out the sound.

1:07You know what I'm saying?

1:09Yeah. All right. Well, do you want me to go again?

1:13I'll try to talk like this.

1:14I'll try to keep it consistent.

1:16All right. Let's go. Are we recording?

1:18Oh, cool. We're back. We're in...

1:25Shh. We're in Austin, Texas.

1:30We came to town for the FUTO conference, and we have two special guests today.

1:38We have the CEO of FUTO, Mr.

1:41Aaron Wolfe, and his director of operations, friend of the pod, return guest, Razeeb Khan.

1:46That was good. That was a good intro.

1:48This is very professional. I'm not used to having other people do everything for us.

1:54Should we just like jump into it?

1:56Let's go. Yeah. Let's go.

1:58Let's do it. Well, I guess my first question for you guys is, what is

2:04FUTO? What does it stand for?

2:06What kind of projects were you funding before?

2:09And what is your mission now?

2:12Because I'm guessing none of our listeners have any idea who you guys are.

2:16Yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, FUTO is kind of a reaction to the way that

2:21big tech companies have basically lost all respect for their customers or for the people

2:29using their software. So if you look at the way a company like Google puts

2:34all this R &D into things like the browser and Android and their search engine

2:39and all these things, and they do give us good tools, Gmail even.

2:42And, you know, they do give us good tools, but we're not actually their customer.

2:47Their customer is marketers that want to influence our behavior.

2:51So that means they start doing all this creepy surveillance of our behavior while we're

2:57using the software and start learning how to influence us.

3:00And that's actually their product.

3:03The product that Google and Facebook are selling is us, the people.

3:09Right, there's, like, that adage that, like, if you're getting something for free, then you're

3:15the product. Right, exactly, exactly.

3:18So I'm just a software developer who, like, I do kind of see it as

3:24my, you know, as somebody who started programming at a young age and I was

3:30able to write some software that people found useful, people liked.

3:34Like, I do see it as my kind of mission in life is to write

3:38software for people like yourselves that you can enjoy it.

3:41And it's like there's an honest relationship between me or whatever company I'm working for

3:45making software and you enjoying the software.

3:48So Futo is a software development company.

3:52Yeah, for the most part, yes.

3:54Most of the employees are engineers.

3:56Okay, and previously you were funding other people's projects and now you're embarking on your

4:02own projects, is that the idea?

4:04That's fair to say. Futo really got going in 2021 and our first kind of

4:11endeavors were we found some fellows, we found some companies to invest in.

4:18And that was, you know, basically based on, well, let's just, like, you know, I

4:25was looking at it from the standpoint of, I have, you know, a lot of

4:29money, I don't really get interested in the sort of things that most venture capitalists

4:37would get excited about with the funding that I had.

4:41I was like, well, I just kind of want to build an organization that I

4:46would want to work at.

4:48Sure, but in terms of, like, giving an elevator pitch to consumers, to clients, what

4:53would that be, what kind of software are you developing, what is your base, that

4:59sort of thing. So, everyday software that you use.

5:01you use like we are like a browser like well we were helping somebody make

5:07a browser there's things that are really hard to do so a browser takes a

5:11ton of money and it's not clear how you can uh how you can uh

5:19well the browser i i i guess maybe what i should say is there's a

5:27lot of work to do here like it's a whole computing ecosystem the browser is

5:30part of it um we're working on different elements of the software use every day

5:34the most prominent thing that we have right now is our image product which is

5:39basically what you get on your phone when you uh have an android ios phone

5:44you get a little application that you take photos you have photos on your phone

5:48you usually put them in icloud or google cloud um our image product is okay

5:55what if i just want to what if i don't want to give my photos

5:58to big tech well i can run a linux server and then i can put

6:02those photos on my own linux server um so that's they that's the kind of

6:06thing that we're trying to do it's a software that you use every day um

6:11it is something that so it would be like sorry i'm a little bit of

6:16a luddite so say a little bit a little bit say i didn't i don't

6:20want to put my photos on the cloud i could then download a different app

6:26and use that you'd have to do right now or this is all very uh

6:31difficult right now right now you actually have to be able to run your own

6:35linux server we're working to make it so you don't have to do that what

6:37is a linux server so linux server is um so linux is the operating system

6:43that um kind of built google and built facebook and it was done by uh

6:48open source developers who actually just did it for love of the game for love

6:54of the game linux torvalds is uh just this you know really hardcore developer just

6:59like wanted to make an operating system and make it free for people unfortunately what

7:04happened was companies like google and facebook um and a company i worked for yahoo

7:09we wound up using software like that and then we build all these data collection

7:14services on top of it um but anybody can run linux so there's a lot

7:20of uh enthusiasts in the world who do run linux um it's not that hard

7:25to do it it takes you know if i i walked you through the steps

7:30to run linux it'll probably take you know take us a half an hour for

7:33you to get linux running on a little server in your home problem is it

7:36does take maintenance and so you'd have to server in my home well i guess

7:41this is the way the internet was yeah like um my sense is that most

7:46like consumers would be happy to trade their privacy and data in exchange for like

7:51the consolidation the centralization the convenience yes tech platforms offer them and i think even

7:58when they're made aware of all the horrible breaches and abuses they don't care i

8:03don't really care but that and you know how do you sell a product like

8:06this and this is what i'm telling people all the time because there's so many

8:09kind of nerds out there who are building stuff and they're like oh because they

8:13the people who do care about it they're like oh well we built this and

8:16it works great for me and then if you try to use it you're like

8:19this is a pain in the ass i'm just going to use what's easy right

8:22well we should make it easy if we made it easy you might use it

8:26if it was as easy as google you might use it if you just had

8:28a choice um i mean the real choice you have to make hopefully if we

8:33can execute on building the good products is well instead of having um you know

8:41i buy an android phone for really cheap and then i get all the stuff

8:44for free and i'm getting surveilled and like manipulated and i see ads well what

8:49if you spent a little bit more and you got something that was just as

8:53good and just as easy and convenient but it didn't uh do all all the

8:57all the surveillance of you like that that's kind of what we're hoping that we

9:01can get people to make that decision um and then maybe you're i mean there's

9:05going to be a lot of people are just whatever i'm going to take the

9:06cheapest thing but well what is like i guess the like alarmist doomsday big tech

9:12scenario that you are trying to combat like what's i know that like yeah you

9:18might not want to be surveilled you might not want to be manipulated but like

9:22what's what's the real harm i mean it's the consolidation of power ultimately it's about

9:29you know company you know big companies big tech works yeah just sorry to interrupt

9:32but like well i mean consolidation power the deep platforming that we saw five years

9:37ago for example of a bunch of people you know around five years ago that's

9:41because the big companies there's like you know four or five of them that control

9:46your social media presence well if they just decide to x you out what are

9:50you gonna do about it right you don't you don't have your own unique position

9:54place on you know back in the 1990s people had their own you know worldwide

9:58web page and all these like little homebrewed things that they would have and that

10:03was very decentralized and it was also a situation where you know there wasn't i

10:07mean there were ways that the you know the web host could remove the pages

10:11i mean but but it was kind of a pain in the butt whereas like

10:13okay like you put all your information like you use twitter as your primary medium

10:17of communicating with the world well i mean you could just be disappeared really quickly

10:21as a lot of people were yeah i mean i can see that but i

10:24think even in terms of something like you know when you get like algorithmically served

10:28as which can be annoying and a nuisance but very often those ads are like

10:33pertinent and real like relevant i've clicked through just and bought stupid bullshit on the

10:38internet on that now obviously this tech is a world that attracts a lot of

10:42people who are like anti -authoritarian anarchist libertarian and stuff like that um but are

10:48we just talking about like swapping one set of gatekeepers out for a new set

10:52of gatekeepers and who decides who the gatekeepers are in that scenario so you don't

10:58have to do it that way you know google consciously when they built something like

11:02youtube they consciously made it so that they would be the gatekeepers we are building

11:06things in a way that there are no gatekeepers so for instance like youtube could

11:12have easily done this when they when they built themselves when they built themselves up

11:16it's like well there's one recommendation engine for youtube that's it if you go back

11:2110 years before youtube or five years before youtube if you uploaded anything you'd have

11:26six search engines that were competing fierce the six the search engines would compete fiercely

11:31with each other to connect their people searching with the content they wanted to find

11:36well now you just have google that's connecting you to the video you're trying to

11:40find and that's it why couldn't google have built a system where you could plug

11:46in your own search engine or other people could make search engines from the data

11:50they could have done that but they didn't because obviously you you know if you

11:54want to be a trillion dollar company you want to keep control of as much

11:58as you can yeah and you're subject to all sorts of like profit motives and

12:02political incentives and that that seems to be the bigger thing to combat but that's

12:08difficult for like any one company to do it yes um can you talk a

12:13little bit about um your background where you're from what you were doing before you

12:17started fudo people are familiar with razee but not with you i'm not familiar with

12:22me well you've been on the show yeah i mean they know you as like

12:25a geneticist and a poster okay yeah that's fair okay not and your new role

12:30is okay director of operations um okay yeah so i guess you know as i

12:36grew up in tucson um i had a computer and i like got to i

12:42was a nerd didn't have a lot of friends so i programmed programming has always

12:46been kind of what i like doing because um you know it if it does

12:52what you want it does what you tell it to do and it's your fault

12:55if it doesn't do what you're expecting it to do actually when you program it's

12:59like a control thing yeah it's like yeah it's kind of interesting yeah um so

13:03and when i was in um grad school i went to uc san diego and

13:07i was just i was just the internet was just starting i really liked uh

13:12board games so i built a little board game uh service where you could play

13:15games like chess or hearts or backgammon or or spades or checkers whatever on the

13:22internet with your friends so this would be an early this is something i launched

13:26by myself in 1997 um and it very quickly picked up steam and like i

13:34had like hundreds of people playing games yahoo which is uh you know kind of

13:40the proto google i like to say like yahoo is the failed google yeah or

13:46um if i get it really obscure it's the uh count fenring to uh google's

13:50paul oh my god he always hates it when i use that analogy what's that

13:55what's that what is that a reference so you know paul paul and dune oh

14:00there's actually the benedict okay i know that i know men like dune paul is

14:07the messiah yeah and he is the he is the um successful messiah he is

14:13the yeah he's the one that he actually took and the benedict a generation before

14:18paul tried and they created count fenring who had just not quite what they needed

14:23do you like david lynch's dune i do like david lynch's dune yeah quite good

14:27it's actually his most coherent film i like it more as weird as it is

14:33i like it more than the newer ones but but anyway so back to uh

14:37yeah so yahoo was uh you know i i joined yahoo there was like there's

14:41like a 500 employee company when i joined um and i was there six and

14:47a half years i did yahoo games which was you know got very you know

14:51we had like 10 million people playing every month at some point um we had

14:56like you know nothing we didn't we weren't doing doom or any kind of anything

15:00like uh you know triple what they would call triple a games but you know

15:05we were doing we had a nice service people used um and then i left

15:10yahoo in um 2000 uh 2004 and after that i just i was i had

15:19kind of plans i started programming my stuff world of warcraft actually got released though

15:23like that year too and it somehow uh it captured my mind because like i

15:31could the nice thing about world of warcraft was you could like work really hard

15:35and there was no bullshit i was like if you worked really hard you got

15:38everything you wanted you know like people would appreciate you like doing a good job

15:43there was no politics and there's hardly any politics in world of warcraft um like

15:48you would still have to be in a guild with like 40 people to get

15:52stuff done so there was big organizations but you you you you you you you

15:56you there was also very very clear clearly it was very clear who was pulling

16:01their weight and who wasn't so i kind of like that environment yeah but how

16:05did how did you end up um starting fudo from that um so yeah i

16:10mean honestly i just kind of did random gigs with my friends for many years

16:15and that's how you made money i would so okay so i left yahoo with

16:20a decent amount of money because i was aqua hired by yahoo and then we

16:24were told that you were a billionaire is that true yes that is true how

16:27did you become a billionaire okay i guess yeah i mean it's it's basic i

16:31mean so when i left yahoo i uh i basically invested in companies that annoyed

16:37me like if that makes sense so i would invest in even if i didn't

16:41use their product in fact i i invested in google i invested in uh apple

16:46i invested in facebook i invested in um tesla like just any like i've never

16:55like i was not an apple person when i owned apple stock um but i

17:00kind of could see how they were doing so you made money investing in these

17:03companies and now you've turned against them yes um i was always a prince who's

17:07waging war on it's it's more of hedging my emotional state so i was really

17:12not happy with microsoft in the 90s because they were like a big bully company

17:16they were doing lots of anti -competitive things and i was like well now that

17:21i have money to invest i know these companies are going to piss me off

17:26just as much as microsoft but at least i'll i'll like tag along for the

17:31ride um and then also i i would say a big thing that also helped

17:35was i invested in whatsapp which wound up getting acquired by facebook so that was

17:39a big big uh windfall there too so just kind of all accumulated over time

17:44um my net worth doubled every few years for 15 years you know yeah um

17:51do you think that american dream is still alive um do you think that it's

17:59changed you in any way like what's your mind frame um anything like that yeah

18:05the thing that changed i think when i hit i do have to say when

18:08i met this guy i met this i met him four years ago i think

18:11it was a party uh at um at a certain person's house that we actually

18:16hung out with yesterday um here in austin and he was showing me something on

18:20his iphone and look i was i knew he was rich but i wasn't like

18:24super no i would i would i had an android or android yeah how did

18:28you know he was rich because he was wearing flip -flops uh no okay there's

18:31some funny stories about that but i'm good friends with his former former director of

18:35operations ian mason he's like oh my um my boss is just this rich guy

18:38so which i didn't know that you were the rich guy for a long time

18:42because way he dresses you know um but um he showed me something on his

18:46android and the phone had like cracked screen so it's like well this is how

18:51he lives um yeah i imagine that your personal expenses are pretty low yeah do

18:58you mostly just invest your money or you've thrown it into this company or so

19:02my goal is to eventually throw it all into this company um you know we

19:06have to build our capabilities before when did you start fudo 2021 okay yeah and

19:13how did you link with razib um just in austin i think you know i

19:18started i started it with ian um in 2021 and ian was trying to get

19:23me out of my uh shell i was still playing world of warcraft in 2021

19:28private servers not not the microsoft crap but um i was uh you know ian

19:34would try to get me out of uh out and go to the parties same

19:36kind of parties that razib was at and that's where i met actually there is

19:40there is like i'll just like i put the lore explicitly because it's kind of

19:42a funny story um in 2022 in september of 2022 um my friend john carney

19:49who is a economics journalist at breitbart said that um alam bokhari had moved to

19:54austin who also worked at breitbart technology at the time and so i um he

20:00was like you should have dinner with him so i was like okay and so

20:01i messaged him on twitter and he's like let's have dinner and then i was

20:04like can i bring my friends and so he brought uh well he brought ian

20:07was one of the people he brought and then i got a message from dick

20:10anania um and i didn't know that yeah i got a message from him actually

20:15i got a message from him he was like oh i heard you're going to

20:18have dinner with ian mason he's lame and i'm like who the fuck is ian

20:22mason like i don't even know like i didn't know that he was i was

20:24gonna have dinner with this guy but um anyway alam had told someone else a

20:28mutual friend and he had told richard and anyway so um i became friends with

20:33ian and obviously ian works for him so i would see i would see erin

20:37around um i will tell you one really quick story it was like at like

20:40the return the magazine return back when pulos was running it at the party and

20:45like most of the people there were wearing like dress shirts some people wearing jackets

20:48and he came in his dropbox hoodie i believe in his flip -flops and he

20:52was having some hors d 'oeuvres and it was you know kind of you know

20:56semi -fancy and he looked definitely out of place and i was just like chilling

21:00with some buddies and i heard the servers having a discussion whether they should go

21:05talk to that guy because he didn't look like he belonged there i was just

21:08like no don't worry about it he actually does belong here and they're like well

21:10i don't know he doesn't i'm like don't worry about it he's rich and they

21:13were like okay and i'm like trust me you're probably gonna get in trouble with

21:17your bosses so they like didn't bug him i don't nobody would yeah they would

21:22have been fine they would have been fine you wouldn't cared oh yeah i don't

21:25care like i'm so long i'm going i'm just saying that the bosses would be

21:28like you know how bosses are yeah so what is the futile like is there

21:35a mission statement i mean the mission there isn't actually an official mission statement um

21:41or do we have an official mission statement the conference is called don't be evil

21:45yeah don't be evil that's kind of a play because that used to be google's

21:49that was actually in their documents even um when they when they like did stuff

21:53with google um yeah our mission is to destroy google and apple and facebook and

22:01like have them not be so powerful so and this is something that you feel

22:06like a ethical inclination towards it's a said like you're i guess i'm asking part

22:11of it's ethical yeah i see it as ethical because i do see a lot

22:13of dishonesty from big tech yeah and the way they relate with their customers but

22:17it is also just it's like i said earlier i feel it's like my mission

22:21my mission in life for whatever reason is like i can program i should be

22:26trying to do the best i can to make good like to the extent that

22:30the world is having to deal with kind of this this software ecosystem that is

22:35causing problems that's partially my fault as a as somebody who's capable of writing software

22:40so are you i guess are you motivated more by like a sense of justice

22:45or duty or competitiveness really like i want to win like but but in a

22:52like in a fair way you know like not i don't want to be i

22:55don't want to be winning i don't want to be better at them at screwing

22:59over customers i want to be better than them at making a good product do

23:04you think power ultimately corrupts like if you no i would do the another back

23:09to dune power attracts the corruptible yeah okay i see power attracts the corruptible yeah

23:18i think i think it there is some some some of it is like i

23:23would guess that a lot of these people they just stop seeing themselves as being

23:28like on the same plane of existence with kind of like everyday people i think

23:33when you get like in the position of someone like mark zuckerberg yeah um you're

23:38just kind of like well these people are just i control them they're like i've

23:44got my like you probably developed my strings connected to them some level of contempt

23:48for like normies or npcs yeah and i think probably the autism that's yeah prevalent

23:56in the tech sector inhibits like m like an empathetic ethical business model from but

24:02you do i mean look at the end of the day i mean zuckerberg is

24:05where he is because he does know how to abuse like he does kind of

24:09see the weaknesses in people he'll give people these products that are very abusive that

24:14he would never have his own family his own children using right and he'll have

24:17them using it i mean have you seen the famous picture of uh zuckerberg with

24:21a tape over the camera on his laptop right yeah so he does stuff like

24:26that like you could probably find it if you should people do be doing that

24:30um i actually don't do that myself uh i you know there's kind of a

24:40little bit of competition now in in big tech so android and ios you know

24:45do try to make sure that a facebook app isn't turning on the camera on

24:50you like just when you're randomly using your phone so those things are you know

24:56i i don't like to be a tinfoil hat guy like i don't think that

25:00uh zuckerberg i don't believe that if i have facebook installed on my phone that

25:07when i'm not using the facebook app they're not going to have access to the

25:10camera or if i turn off access to the camera using the software controls on

25:13android i trust that it works i don't even trust that but i don't care

25:17because it's kind of it feels futile um but it's inspiring that you don't think

25:23that i have a question i have a question there are people that if you

25:29if you if you focus enough put enough time you can you can shift yeah

25:33yeah i mean if i like zuckerberg's does the the the brain rot that this

25:38stuff can induce in children probably is more serious than kind of the tape over

25:42the camera yeah well yeah well i have a question um i've noticed it's people

25:49remark on this phenomenon where sometimes you say a word like levi's and then you

25:55go and look at instagram and you get ads for levi's is that because you're

25:59they're that ass listening to you i don't i actually i haven't looked at this

26:05deeply i always figured that's not actually happening and it's just a coincidence and people

26:08think it but maybe like it's because i did something else on my phone pertaining

26:13yeah something like that yeah i mean i think you could test this if somebody

26:16really wanted to do a hardcore test i've i've i've actually because i've talked to

26:21people especially that's from me and i've like made jokes i've like a trainer like

26:26we're talking about like well is it your time of the month now and like

26:29so we'll have all this conversation about like him maybe needing as a joke like

26:34him maybe needing some menstrual cycle products and to see if they they come up

26:39and they didn't come up right so like we actually did some of these that

26:41some of these experiments as a joke yeah i mean they should they would know

26:47that you're both male probably how would they know that by all the other they're

26:51down you they're down I mean, men have to buy these products for their girlfriends.

26:58Okay, anyway, change the subject.

26:59Fair enough. I don't like to talk about that.

27:03But also these technologies are stupid and limited in some ways.

27:06I have a question about AI that's really a question about tech more broadly because

27:10there's always this discourse about AI that it will be apocalyptic and a doomsday in

27:19this kind of cool Blade Runner sci -fi way where it'll take all of our

27:23jobs and it'll take over our lives.

27:26And I guess my sense is if AI is soulless and scary and dangerous, it's

27:32in a much more mundane way because it's not so much that it's going to

27:38gain sentience, it's that it makes people less sentient because it deters people from developing

27:44skills and brings more slop into the world, whatever.

27:50But should we really be worried about AI?

27:56Is the hype a little overrated?

27:59I think there's nothing but hype with AI right now in both directions.

28:05I mean, clearly it is making people's jobs less important.

28:10An Uber driver is less important now as Waymo starts taking off, right?

28:16You know, I used to always lament.

28:18You know, I used to always be like the guy who could navigate, right?

28:21And so as soon as smartphones come and everybody's got a smartphone that can navigate,

28:25I was like, oh, I suck.

28:27You know, I'm less important now because nobody needs me to help them navigate, right?

28:32So it's going to make a lot of people less important.

28:36And it could, I think it's going to increase the IQ necessary to have an

28:42impact that you might want to have in the world, right?

28:44So there's going to be a lot of people who are kind of maybe lower

28:47IQ who just can't do anything productive that they used to be able to do.

28:54But isn't that already upon us?

28:56And is that necessarily a bad thing?

28:57I guess like, I don't think it's totally overblown, obviously, that AI is going to

29:03take over some people's jobs and like render them obsolete.

29:07But it's mostly like low skilled workers and like white collar women.

29:12Lower and white collar seem to be really.

29:14And what, I guess my question for you guys is what happens to those people?

29:19Where do they go? Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, I guess, you know, we

29:22have more and more people in this world who are kind of like having trouble

29:27justifying their existence. But I mean, to be fair, like, you know, even within our

29:31lifetimes, not necessarily yours, because you guys are millennials, it's like, you know, the number

29:35of secretaries, like, and what they did was radical.

29:39So those women, mostly women, they went and got other jobs.

29:43So I think, I think one of the problems.

29:45But there's only so many jobs.

29:48If like a huge sector of the working population isn't able, you know, not everyone

29:54is going to be able to find another job.

29:55I mean, if you have a, I mean, the whole idea is increased productivity, right?

29:59Yeah. Look, I've been of the opinion that like 90 % of white collar jobs

30:05for the last 30 years have been busy work.

30:08Yeah, they're bloated. So can we find busy work for people?

30:12We're going to have abundance.

30:14The AI, I mean, I mean, Peter gave a good talk yesterday.

30:17We are going to have abundance.

30:18We have abundance. And it's okay, so we have busy work for people and we

30:24trick them into thinking they're doing something important.

30:27But with the bad actors out there that are powerful, even if there is abundance,

30:33it doesn't mean that it'll be distributed.

30:37Yeah. I think the problem is less technological than it's like political or social in

30:42terms of it could, I mean, you know, what's China going to do with AI

30:45and all these? They're going to create a massive surveillance state.

30:48And I think that's the problem.

30:49It's not that, I no longer believe, or if I ever did, but I don't

30:54think that there's going to be, you know, a singularity with artificial general intelligence in

30:57the next like 20 years where all of like human life disappears or something weird

31:01like that, right? Yeah, people think of this in terms of like some hostile AI,

31:06like HAL in 2001, A Space Odyssey or whatever, like takes out humankind.

31:10No, I mean, to me, the thing that I don't like the most about AI

31:14is the central, it makes the centralizing forces that we're fighting against at FUTO more

31:21powerful. So AI is going to help big tech more than it helps little tech,

31:25I think. Big tech, AI is going to help, like Razeev said, governments do surveillance

31:29and governments have more control.

31:31So I don't like AI because of those things.

31:35At the same time, you know, we are trying to do everything we can at

31:39FUTO to have local models running on your own computers that you have some more

31:45control over that are there for you.

31:50I don't, the Terminator thing I think is ridiculous.

31:53Like it's always going to be a human who's in, or a group of humans

31:59who are in charge and they're going to be using AI to be more in

32:02charge than they already are.

32:04I mean, I think that's still scary.

32:06It's like the big takeaway, I think, is that for all like the dooming and

32:12fear -mongering, AI is like a useful tool for already smart, already skilled people.

32:19to like streamline their workflows and build stuff they want to build um i another

32:27question i have about um the abundance uh issue is that like i think we

32:33are already in an era of abundance in the sense that like in the united

32:37states for example you're practically rich if you're a poor person like as opposed to

32:42poor people in the united states are obese yeah that's what rich people used so

32:46it seems like abundance is pretty evenly distributed and i think the bigger issue that

32:52it creates is like some kind of existential or spiritual crisis among people yeah and

33:00that is true i mean a lot of programmers getting affected by this actually that

33:04where they're like especially like less capable the less capable programmers are like what's what's

33:10my point now because the ai is maybe better than me at this point right

33:15yeah and yeah it's just i don't know people got to figure out their purpose

33:20in life and it doesn't have to be you know what it was before it

33:24probably won't be professional we're not gonna do it we can make some references to

33:27dune lore here because that is like the premise of the dune universe where humans

33:32were basically like we matter and like we aren't ends unto ourselves and we're gonna

33:37abolish computing and artificial intelligence because they trivialize the human you know importance in the

33:44world sorry what who does the dune universe okay that that that erin like referenced

33:51now you're getting okay okay wait receive how many of those hats do you own

33:57uh he's wearing a cowboy hat yeah i have um well i have i have

34:01three hats that i rotate between you look like james brown many hats go on

34:06but yeah i'm wearing a cowboy hat for the listener so um you're like an

34:10indian guy who's larping as a different type of like i was confused as a

34:15american at a party recently so you should get a long braid yeah my hair

34:20is getting longer like several people when i wear a cowboy hat i'm like wait

34:25are you a native and i'm like i could be you know but anyway um

34:28in the dune universe there is an age of abundance like in their in the

34:34lore like in the deep it's because the future history and you know humans are

34:38basically just like allowing computers to do everything and they're fat and they're happy and

34:43there's a cultural revolution basically where people are like you know we need to destroy

34:48the computers and destroy the robots because we don't do anything for ourselves and we

34:53have no purpose and what ends up happening is there's a conflict between humanity and

34:58the machines and in the end the humanity wins and something called the butlerian jihad

35:03which was led by a woman named serena butler and um they basically destroyed i'm

35:09so stupid i always thought that butlerian jihad was like some meme term that people

35:14were like made up about um judith butler and her adherence anyway go on now

35:19see like this is like totally transformed your view of a meme now yeah yeah

35:24so they destroy they in the dune universe if you watch and a lot of

35:27the listeners will watch the movie in the movies uh they have high tech they

35:31have like high technology but like computers replaced by something called mentats which are which

35:35need calculators they're human calculators you know and so humans basically like they didn't genetically

35:42engineering because they can't do that but anyway um but they bred themselves the benny

35:45jesuit bred themselves to replace a lot of the functions of machine of computing right

35:50and that's because computing had taken you know the worth out of humanity so you

35:55know science fiction has written about this and there's like all sorts of like scenarios

35:58right and we are we're probably yes probably it's this century we're on the precipice

36:04of having to confront these issues um how do you see the um taking shape

36:08or taking place like how do you think that's going to go down if you

36:12have to predict in our world yeah um i mean i think we will have

36:18like some sort of like i suspect that in the next generation like you know

36:22our current religious like you know configuration of like christianity and islam and judy you

36:27know like all these religions they've been around for like over a thousand years right

36:30there hasn't been like a new great religion in a while um i i i

36:35suspect that there will be some sort of it might not be like a new

36:38religion it could be a new way to interpret christianity but i think um i

36:43think it's gonna mess i'll just swear it's like it's gonna mind fuck when when

36:48ai gets smart enough that like a lot of people will be like this is

36:52a conscious well organism there was that i forgot it's not or something about um

36:58like women using like ai companions yes to give them like therapy and advice and

37:04emotion or like i mean there's many people fall in love with their ai yeah

37:07yeah i see that but those people seem brittle her yeah um do you think

37:13people are capable of religious faith and mass in this day and age because they're

37:19capable of like religious fervor or um i think definitely they absolutely are okay uh

37:26if something like tesla is it's a religious bitcoin to use some like non -traditional

37:32examples yeah though the people that are obsessed with tesla or bitcoin or believe in

37:38um i'm saying this is a tesla showholder by the way you know i mean

37:42elon's a big dune fan right elon and grimes were big dune fans yeah like

37:46i've been to grimes place in austin that's like there's a lot of dude dude

37:49memorabilia on this she loves it she's always talking about it yeah so i mean

37:53you know he believes and he's also worried about i know he's worried about the

37:55machines do you guys fuck with battlestar galactica i loved that show me too i

38:02like i like them both i loved when i was growing up i loved the

38:061970s version and then i really loved the uh the donald ronald moore version yeah

38:11yeah that's the one i saw yeah so people like me who don't have tech

38:16literacy uh are they kind of doomed no i think you just make make friends

38:25make real connections with real people and have some people who are tech literate in

38:29your sphere i think that's amazing okay i would say i would say something different

38:32like you know i want to jump in because you're talking but in terms of

38:35what kind of jobs can people do i mean you're creative right yeah creative people

38:38like artists like have not disappeared even though painters have not i mean okay there's

38:42not that many painters but painters have not disappeared even though there's photography but artists

38:46i can make it depends i think people will purchase things that humans make you

38:51know people will watch things that humans do even if like unless like you know

38:55unless you want to get plugged into a machine and live some artificial sensory existence

38:59you know and like just like pump up like you know you're well the right

39:03with the wga strikes and stuff that's a big yeah uh point for them is

39:08like they want protections from ai which i think is a little futile delusional you

39:13got to adapt and also if if you're like a writer and you you're worried

39:18that ai will take over your job maybe you're not that good yeah that's a

39:23problem i also think i mean dasha had the best line about this uh which

39:27kind of actually answers your question about how like um it's not so much that

39:31um ai cannot mimic human consciousness it's that it cannot mimic the human subconscious so

39:37i think like authentic original humans whatever that means will be trading at a premium

39:41right like if you're creative yeah if you're if you add value as a human

39:46being yeah you probably will continue to add value because at least like from what

39:50i can see currently like so ai writing for example it's like b right like

39:55you know it would be like a bsa it's not like an a essay it's

39:59a bsa i mean in a way it maybe if you didn't know what ai

40:05was but now that everybody does you can always tell when something is written we're

40:10adapting to it in real time like we have certain expectations and those expectations the

40:15m dashes and all of that i mean i'd also like to point out like

40:18i'm i'm kind of not i don't know i don't want to pretend like i

40:24know what's going to happen a plausible outcome though is like any day we could

40:28just realize oh the ai is plateaued and it's not going to get any better

40:31than it is right now like probably maybe 20 chance you know ai never gets

40:38to the point where it can do anything that people are saying it's going to

40:42be able to do it's really bad uh cheating at scrabble it's it's pretty i

40:48mean it's good at certain things chat gpt is not i mean i feel like

40:52a computer was better well that's just i mean that's i kind of get disappointed

40:56with the ai researchers because they don't even focus on winning at games anymore that

41:01was to me like the cool accomplishments of ai like when you know in the

41:0590s when ai beat became the best chess player or like i think 10 years

41:10ago it became the best go player um those were cool accomplishments and i'm sorry

41:15ai can kick your shit kick the shit whatever you call it whatever you want

41:18it's not an all of them but scrabble is gonna you're gonna lose you're just

41:22gonna lose to an ai wait did it i mean gary kasparov was that yeah

41:25that was in the 90s so that's cool he deserves it um but i like

41:31as a user as a consumer of someone who's trying to cheat at online scrabble

41:35i put the screenshots into chat gvt and it like can't it can't come up

41:41with words it like can't even read the information it's worse than me but that's

41:45only because llms are not good for playing games right but if you actually had

41:49like a custom coded bot to play scrabble it would win every game but isn't

41:58that i mean it's amazing that people that chess is still as popular as it

42:03is yeah it's kind of neat i like so that's maybe a good point that

42:07like you know for whatever reason chess is more popular now than it was 40

42:12years ago before you know ai became the best chess player so that's not just

42:18about winning it's not always about winning right right i mean like people still you

42:22know ride horses i mean people like to do things the game love of the

42:25game yeah what's your chess elo do you know i am i actually don't like

42:29chess so i've never gotten i the only game like i play like that is

42:33i play do play backgammon because i i programmed a backgammon game recently so i

42:38was like okay i'll play backgammon but i i don't have the patience for chess

42:42i just like what about blitz you can play a quick one oh i think

42:46you have to get good at not blitz before you get good at blitz though

42:49yeah yeah i i play uh chess compulsively but almost as like what's your low

42:55it's low it's like a thousand it's like not very good um i think you

43:00would i think you would i think you would beat me i'm like staring at

43:02the blank screen and she's like going i'm watching fraser i'm playing chess i have

43:06adhd so i have to do so you're still enjoying so i remember in the

43:1190s i was like well because i already kind of hated chess when that happened

43:15I was like well good I'm glad I hated chess because and all you people

43:18who still like chess are stupid because the computer is better than you but I

43:21don't care it's yeah it's fun for people to keep playing chess mm -hmm how

43:27do you guys feel about Austin I guess he asked us that question yeah let's

43:33talk is I mean so I moved to Austin more than 10 years ago now

43:37I think you moved here like you move here a little earlier yeah I moved

43:40here in December 2015 what drew you to Austin honestly so I am NOT I'm

43:49a very introverted guy so it doesn't really matter that much where I am I

43:57honestly picked when I was leaving I knew I had to leave California because I

44:02didn't the reason why we had to leave California was because I wanted to do

44:06things like futa with my money I didn't want to give it to a corrupt

44:10government in California so in Texas allowed me to do that there's several other states

44:15that allow you to do that yeah yeah what does that mean they don't pay

44:22we don't have a yeah that's why people but people always say that as like

44:26a reason for why they moved to Austin but you could hypothetically like live in

44:29any city in Texas like correct he's not gonna be living in Dallas yeah it

44:33all seems fun I've never been there but that's where you want to live if

44:36you want like a big house in Plano with four kids and a wife with

44:42big blonde hair it's a whole lifestyle yeah that's fine but I'm just like this

44:46is not him no I know I get the attack if you want to do

44:48culture in the arts you come to Austin do you do you see any like

44:53commonalities between Tucson and Austin funny enough I think Tucson and Austin were about the

45:01same size when I was growing up and it's amazing how much Tucson has failed

45:05since then compared to Austin why do you think Austin has succeeded well if you

45:09just look at the population itself but just like we have an actual skyline and

45:13Tucson still has the exact same three buildings that were downtown that I had when

45:18I was growing up I don't know why I mean I would there's like little

45:22things that I like about Austin like having town lake it's like a nice lake

45:26in front of you know downtown you can ride your bike around it that's really

45:29nice like that makes a big difference just having something like that but I just

45:33I'll be honest I didn't know what I was doing I just knew I had

45:36to leave California I kind of want to stay on the west coast I was

45:39really looking hard at Seattle area but I knew one person in Austin and I

45:45knew nobody in Seattle so I knew it to Austin yeah it was kind of

45:48like yeah I'm from the Pacific Northwest and I don't personally perceive this but enough

45:53Californians partly it's because they're Californians but the people in the Pacific Northwest don't like

45:57people from California but people from California that move to Portland or Seattle often say

46:00there's you know Pacific Northwest freeze Seattle freeze people are like very insulated and they

46:06hang out with people they grew up with the people they know from high school

46:08or college and so it is difficult for Californians from what I've heard going to

46:12Seattle for example as opposed to Austin where I feel people in Austin are actually

46:15very very welcoming and very very open a lot of us are transplants I think

46:19that's part of the issue yeah but I think like it must be just the

46:23native Texans themselves because there are you know I do meet Austinites and they're also

46:26like pretty like you know like sometimes they when I first moved here in 2016

46:29there was a lot of complaining about gentrification but I don't really hear that anymore

46:32people just giving up it's like okay we're just chatty and friendly yeah it's like

46:36we're just gonna grow there's gonna be newcomers and as long as we don't change

46:39things too much we've changed things some like keep Austin the music scene and the

46:42art scene has had some issues because tech money you know but it's funny that

46:46people find that to be a draw because like my criteria for moving anywhere is

46:51that people don't talk to you the idea of like moving somewhere people are friendly

46:55and want to talk to you but both Tucson and Austin have like kind of

47:01burnout tweaker weird quirky deadhead energy I guess slacker that's still here it's in pockets

47:10actually there there's certain like there's certain like shops that I've gone into where I'm

47:14like wait am I in Portland like the vibe is like totally Portland all of

47:18a sudden whereas there's you know a lot of the other if you go to

47:20the domain which I don't know if you guys know the domain it's like by

47:22like you know towards the north where all the tech companies are and it's like

47:24there's a very Silicon Valley vibe down to like the fact that you're surrounded by

47:29like women and sour do you have a prognosis for Silicon Valley like why are

47:39there so many tech billionaires in California when they could optimize so to speak in

47:47Texas it it I mean for me it's the it's so nice there with the

47:53weather and the ocean and the mountains and then you know for me it was

47:58like okay I've you know I went from Tucson to San Diego Silicon Valley I'm

48:04like okay like there's nowhere to go now I've I've made it to Silicon Valley

48:07and then but then so that that doesn't change that it's hard to lose that

48:12it's not really hard to lose that so it'll just be there forever and you

48:15the the geographical advantages you it's impossible like Austin can never replicate those things unfortunately

48:23so it's basically California is like California is messing up a lot to drive people

48:30to Texas to be honest but yeah what's your sign I think I'm Leo yeah

48:37Leo nice what day August I mean August 18th so weird that you would be

48:47introverted our model keeps failing over and over again i know just like talk authoritatively

48:53about this and know nothing about it um i have another tech question what um

49:00percentage of tech do you think is fake bullshit and where does the actual value

49:06lie uh so i mean that's kind of there's a continuum right like there's a

49:14there's how fake 100 fake uh if you're talking about the companies in silicon valley

49:22not that much honestly i've dealt with a lot more fake tech since i tried

49:26to like engage with the um the kind of the peripheral like like kind of

49:31the anti -establishment tech 95 of the anti -establishment tech scene is fake uh in

49:39my opinion if you look at something like um i mean i don't know like

49:44i maybe i i think i'd maybe if you ask me like a specific example

49:48i can tell you how fake i think it is but like obviously apple is

49:51doing incredible products like apple is doing incredible products like that yeah why are you

49:56an android guy so it's a real simple uh you know i just get people

50:01ask that because i admire apple so much for making a good product there's one

50:07simple reason why i had to become an android person early on which was the

50:11side loading of applications so as a software developer i was able to self -publish

50:17when i did um my game site i was able to self -publish on the

50:19internet um with the android and ios duopoly you have to get their permission to

50:29publish your your applications but there is a like android is like kind of smart

50:35because they actually do realize developers you know kind of like oppositionally defiant developers such

50:41as myself find that unacceptable so they have side loading so what is side loading

50:47side loading is basically i can create an application and i can just give you

50:51that application i could even send it to you like in a direct message and

50:55then you can install it i can send it to you you can download it

50:58from my own website and then you can install it on your phone it'll try

51:01to scare you a little bit before you try to install it on android it'll

51:04say like are you sure you want to install an application from an untrusted source

51:09but it's still possible and so that was that's why i'm an android like that's

51:13it because apple's just too apple's too controlling yeah too closed like it's impossible to

51:20uh succeed in the apple ecosystem without giving just a 30 percent uh tariff to

51:26them basically or whatever you want to call it 30 percent of what you make

51:29are there any technologists that you admire um yeah i mean the people who yeah

51:37there's people who build great things i admire so um in terms of uh you

51:43know i love bram cohen cohen who who invented uh bit torrent right like that's

51:48you know one of the you know satoshi whoever he that might be obviously uh

51:53very admirable what those people are doing bitcoin bitcoin yeah satoshi i just heard i

52:01just learned about him i'm learning a lot this weekend like yesterday no like today

52:06someone like just said his name um well okay so last night at dinner there

52:15was sort of a heated discussion about um effective altruism oh yeah i was uh

52:21yeah what were they talking about i guess the nature of the question was um

52:27do effective altruists believe or do they just believe they believe and like are are

52:34they religious zealots or are they i don't quite understand i was having this conversation

52:38actually separately just uh with the no less wrong people or something that's an overlapping

52:43i didn't under yeah i didn't understand really what i had a hard time following

52:48but the idea was that that they are trying to uh regulate overly regulate ai

52:53because they want to control it so they've convinced themselves that their purpose and i

52:58mean they've just it's kind of a cult like we talked about religion right yeah

53:01so they've convinced themselves that you know it's their purpose in life to stop ai

53:06from the ai apocalypse right so i think they're wrong um and i don't i

53:13don't think there's i don't i don't think their techniques are going to be successful

53:16but do they really believe that i guess or do they just want to control

53:20it oh they definitely yeah that's absolutely true i mean you look at look at

53:26open ai it's hilarious right like it was all about it was open ai was

53:30founded because they didn't want google to control ai and then so sam altman and

53:35then sam altman tries to control open ai and then elon musk is like oh

53:38well i should control ai and they're just fighting over who's controlling ai and they're

53:41pretending like it's altruistic they don't seem like they are anti -ai they just seem

53:46like they want to like be they're all fighting over who gets to control it

53:49it's really like a stupid question to ask whether they're like um serious adherence to

53:54the faith or are just doing it to seem credible or for the clout or

53:59whatever uh but they'll admit they have no answers is is gatekeeping necessarily really bad

54:06uh it can it's like anything it's it's a it can be good or bad

54:12depending on you know how it's used um gatekeeping is you know been very effective

54:17for apple with the i was just complaining about the gatekeeping that the app stores

54:21do yeah it's clearly been very effective too at keeping a high quality of applications

54:25for apple users so you know it's i so with the question of digital sovereignty

54:33and big tech overreach i guess my question is like what's the best case scenario

54:41and what's the worst case scenario i mean worst case scenario is you know we

54:47live in mad max future instead of star trek future right so um by the

54:52way star trek future is complete bullshit but i like to call it i like

54:56to call it the star trek mind virus that some people are afflicted with but

55:00anyway you know a future of abundance maybe it would be a better way to

55:04say it um that's the best case scenario yeah so in terms of like what

55:08path gets us there i have chosen a side i've chosen a side of decentralization

55:14and and trying to keep entities from getting too powerful like that's kind of my

55:18philosophy that's my side i might even be wrong but like i've chosen that side

55:23right like i i so i could i get from my standpoint i i feel

55:28like you get a more fragile uh civilization if you have too much centralization of

55:34power and if you have a fragile civilization then it can't recover from some potentially

55:40uh you know catastrophic event that may be a less centralized uh civilization could survive

55:46yeah yeah exactly but something like china they're very centralized and hope to be more

55:55so um and yet they seem strong until they're strong until they're not maybe brittle

56:01i always assumed i thought they would be fragile because they have like a looming

56:06demographic crisis right but i mean that that's gonna really kick in and like you

56:10know 20 or 30 years they still have a lot of people you know like

56:14a lot of working age people yeah and what happens if they take taiwan well

56:18i mean i think they probably will right it'll probably be uh i don't know

56:22isn't that isn't that they were supposed to take taiwan yeah i think they're just

56:27i think they're just playing the slow they're not gonna have to take it they

56:30just convince more and more people they're disappearing they just convince more and more the

56:35generations do just decide they want something else over time and so the taiwan youth

56:42could could very wind up being again this is where big the tech and soft

56:48influence can convince the younger generations just want to be part of china and then

56:52there's no there's no issue in america do you sense a generational because i sort

56:56of see it with zoomers and and i am millennials and i feel like when

57:00we started using the internet we had this really like you know every we just

57:06gave so much of our data because we you know yeah early internet was so

57:11much about like welcome to dosh's page and like here's all this stuff about me

57:15and i see younger people being less less willing to do that yeah that's a

57:20lot of info about you yeah but we were like yeah we just kind of

57:23like mindlessly did it unironic and sincere and really oh let's just uh tell people

57:28our tastes and preferences and create a social network of similar gullible retards i i

57:35think that uh nobody we haven't really talked about this yet but a huge anybody

57:38who's like doing electioneering for in like our western democracies knows how to get the

57:44results they want by spending money on these things so that's a huge part of

57:47it too is just you can get the result you want by influencing what people

57:53see and um you know making sure that you the right people have their voices

58:00removed things like that what's the futo keyboard just a really simple thing it's kind

58:06of the embodiment of what we're trying to do it's so if you're using android

58:10keyboard you're sending all this data to google as you type or if you're doing

58:14voice um recognition or voice prediction uh android keyboard is just a way to interact

58:20with your phone and your applications without google knowing what you're doing we don't have

58:24it doesn't even have a connection to the internet so android keyboard only has a

58:28connection to the application that is uh that you're using that you're typing into so

58:34if i have an android and i don't have a futo keyboard and i'm like

58:37typing a note then google has access to it yeah google has said they don't

58:44have access to your um what you're typing and they try to blind it so

58:49there's all this cryptography that's going on that some of it's real most some of

58:54it's not real um and they they've published papers saying that even though you everything

58:59you type is being sent to google that they're scrambling it in a nice cryptographic

59:06way but voice to text they're not like voice so if you're using voice a

59:10keyboard is also responsible for voice to text if you use that feature so and

59:14our keyboard futo keyboard does both uh voice predict voice to text and text prediction

59:20and we don't have a connection to the internet we just want people it's very

59:24simple proposition we made a keyboard for you we are hiring engineers we try to

59:28make it as good as we can for you pay us for using our software

59:33are there any other products you'd like to um um we're working on our polycentric

59:40product um this is something that's been in the works for a while we've kind

59:43of had some stumbles like finding the right engineers to work on it what's polycentric

59:48oh yes budo needs engineers i actually have good good um good feeling about polycentric

59:55now um because we have some new people in place um what is polycentric so

59:59polycentric is what i feel like um publishing should be on the internet and the

1:00:05idea is basically instead of publishing to a specific platform that can uh censor you

1:00:12or manipulate you as a creator through um you know like a youtuber gets quite

1:00:18a bit of uh guidance from youtube about how to maximize their their reach um

1:00:24instead of that we just want people what we're talking about earlier we want people

1:00:28to just publish to the internet and create an ecosystem where there's lots of people

1:00:35creating ways for your audience to find you based on the fact that you just

1:00:39published it to the internet we are like truly the cloud we like you publish

1:00:43something you publish it to multiple servers so you don't publish it to just one

1:00:46server you publish it to multiple servers as a publisher that just becomes a part

1:00:51of the public record instead of something that's a inside you know google's database that

1:00:57they can just delete or hide anytime they want it's part of the public record

1:01:01that you publish this and how people who are interested how can they learn more

1:01:08uh futo .tech is our site we've got a lot of information there um you

1:01:15know we have an x account we have an x account futo underscore tech on

1:01:20x um we publish we do publish videos on youtube because we're trying to reach

1:01:25the audience where they are which is unfortunately on youtube so is it is youtube

1:01:29still youtube's huge yeah yeah wow yep it's it's uh everybody was on tiktok now

1:01:36well tiktok is harder to actually communicate with anybody more than just uh silly silly

1:01:43uh like dances or whatever so we we do try to have substance when we

1:01:48communicate with you know people and so youtube is what we're using now we also

1:01:53publish to youtube competitors as much as we can you know they're very niche the

1:01:58youtube competitors but we do we do publish to them too um if you're here

1:02:03in austin we do our lunches every friday um if you like programming if you

1:02:07want to talk to other people who are working on on tech and care about

1:02:12making good products which is honestly like i've been very happy that we found a

1:02:17lot of people like that that are are like me and just they want to

1:02:21build a good product for people there's prize pride of workmanship you know you're you're

1:02:25good at programming you should want to you shouldn't want to build something for google

1:02:28or facebook you don't need to come you don't come to the photo you don't

1:02:34need to yeah but you should also be kind of like sad at what they've

1:02:38done to your work i think sure sure yeah i mean basically it's like you

1:02:42know you just people have to sell out to some extent more or less right

1:02:45but it's like you don't have to be happy about it you know it's just

1:02:49how it is okay well thank you so much thank you guys thank you it

1:02:56was great talking to you good luck with your ventures yeah if any of you

1:03:00listeners want to go work for fudo you know every every it is rare that

1:03:20you know the people who can do this stuff are rare people so it's not

1:03:23a lot of them but they do all have friends you know they have friends

1:03:26who are listening to your probably they might be listening to your podcast yeah you

1:03:30know you never know if you might be out they might be out there yep

1:03:35okay all right i'll see you now thank you thank you that was fun you

1:03:48you you you you

Austism