The Manosphere Report

0:12so you had a pile of notes and then you just folded them up like

0:15did you commit them to memory no i've just these two things i have the

0:18links i sent you guys oh okay and just some stuff there i just saw

0:21the pieces of paper that you folded i was like what's in there that's just

0:24how did first of all i want to i want to talk you through like

0:30when you were a younger man before you had looked into this what was your

0:34opinions on medical science what was your opinions on vaccines were you skeptical or did

0:39you just kind of assume that everything that we're told is exactly how it is

0:42and the experts have only the best interests of human beings in mind and not

0:47not money i had what you would effectively call the mainstream view vaccine saved humanity

0:53me too we'd all be dead without them um you know they are the uh

0:57there was the bible given to moses at sinai and then there were vaccines yeah

1:02that's basically you know i think it's anybody that didn't consider themselves a fool you

1:09know if you would you would have to be a fool like a real fool

1:12to ignore all this medical science which is the reason why there's so many people

1:16alive today that would have died and a lot of that's true with penicillin antibiotics

1:20there's a lot of stuff that's saved a lot of people's lives um but the

1:25vaccine one until this covid epidemic i would have never questioned it i mocked anti

1:30-vaxxers i was like these people are silly don't they know all the good things

1:34that vaccines have done and the there's the blatant propaganda that we were force -fed

1:40like one of those ducks are trying to make fog wall with it just made

1:45me stop and pause and go is the whole thing like this is this whole

1:50thing just a dirty money laundering operation because it kind of seems like that's at

1:56least part of the reason why they were telling people to get boosted when they

2:00knew it wasn't working and and telling young people that didn't need it to they

2:03wanted to make a lot of money that's the only reason why you would do

2:06any of those things after a certain amount of information is out and so it

2:10just made me stop and think about the whole thing and go well why would

2:16i assume that this is the one area where pharmaceutical drug companies doctor everybody has

2:21been totally honest in this one area when it's like a religious thing if you

2:28question it and what that's the why i love the title of your book yes

2:32vaccines amen yeah religion of vaccines you it's that's what it is it's a religion

2:39for secular intelligent people with a higher education and it causes incredible cognitive dissonance for

2:48anybody out there to come to the conclusion that the cdc and the fda and

2:55our public health authorities and what the entire medical establishment has been telling you may

3:00not be accurate about vaccines because like what you just said the claim that you're

3:07a flat earther you're an anti -vaxxer yeah so not they're used as a way

3:13to say you are really out there and dumb right they're completely equal in their

3:18impact and so it takes incredible cognitive dissonance to say there are real problems with

3:25vaccines but vaccines really sit in their own little universe they're unlike any other medical

3:32product they're not like penicillin they're not like any other drugs they're not like any

3:37other product out there any other product in this room anything out there for one

3:42major reason every other product that exists i can sue the company i can hold

3:50them accountable if that product injures or kills you or your child on the basis

3:57that product could have made safer the only product and i mean this literally the

4:02only product in america where you cannot sue to say had you made that product

4:09safer my child wouldn't be dead my child wouldn't be seriously injured they wouldn't have

4:15a neurological disorder they wouldn't have immunological disorder they wouldn't have a nervous system disorder

4:19they wouldn't have a cardiac cardiac issue are childhood vaccines and childhood vaccines used by

4:25adults it's the only one and that's because of a law called the national childhood

4:30vaccine injury act of 1986 it gave pharma companies that incredibly special immunity now just

4:39to put that into context okay and and i'll and i'll tie this back in

4:43a second as to how we ended up with this notion of uh this belief

4:49religion in vaccines because you know given industry 40 years of unopposed ability to influence

4:55they're going to get pretty dang far and they did with vaccines and so um

5:00you know a lot of industries face a crossroads where their products are causing more

5:08harm than good gas tanks used to explode what did they do made a better

5:12gas tank all right building materials had asbestos caused cancer what do they do they

5:19make better building materials all right did they give them immunity no of course not

5:24but in the instance of vaccines leading up to 1986 there were only three routine

5:30vaccines that's it that's all there was a child following the cdc schedule in 1986

5:37got three injections on or before their first birthday birthday okay those three products were

5:44causing so much harm and injury that every manufacturer of them went out of business

5:51and that was the mmr vaccine the dtp and the opv vaccine every single one

5:55from six down to one or for the pure tussis vaccine six down to one

5:59for measles about three down to one for polio and with one company left for

6:03each instead of forcing them to do what every other industry has to do like

6:08i said make better building materials without asbestos, make better cars that don't explode, go

6:13down the chain of different products out there.

6:16Congress did something completely unique.

6:18It said, you know what?

6:20We're just going to give you immunity.

6:22We're going to make it so that no company, excuse me, no individual, no parent,

6:29no child can sue you for the injuries and deaths caused by your vaccine products.

6:35That is what the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act 1986 did.

6:38And not only for those three products, but for any other childhood vaccine thereafter.

6:42And what that effectively has done is given 40 years for the industry to promote

6:48their products, no pushback. When you read about a problem with a car, where are

6:51you reading about it from?

6:52Usually a class action lawsuit in the paper, right?

6:55You're not going to read about that in vaccines typically.

6:57And because of that, you ended up where we are.

7:00Anyways, there's a lot more detail to that, but I'll stop there for now.

7:02No, please keep going. Well, I mean, when you think about what makes products safer,

7:11right? Because I've got a law firm with over a hundred individuals.

7:14I'm the managing partner of the firm.

7:16Half my firm does all types of plate to side class actions.

7:19We can hold companies accountable for almost anything.

7:23Your data, we do hundreds of data breach cases, genetic privacy cases, biometric privacy cases.

7:29We do all types of lawsuits like that nature, by the way.

7:33And New York Times loves those lawsuits, by the way.

7:35That stuff nobody attacks me for, okay?

7:37Oh, making my privacy better?

7:40Oh, protecting me from cars that explode?

7:42Oh, thank you. Make vaccines safer?

7:45You want to kill everybody.

7:46Okay. But that's where it's really weird.

7:49But well, here's where I think I can make, I'm hoping I can make it

7:56make sense without causing cognitive dissonance.

8:01So going back to how we make products safer in America or anywhere, okay?

8:06It's not the government. Governments don't make products safer.

8:11Look at extremely authoritarian regimes where there was very little free market like the former

8:17USSR. You think products are safe?

8:19No. What makes products safe?

8:21It's the economic self -interest of the company.

8:24It's the economic interest of the company to make the product safer.

8:28Why? You probably own stock, right?

8:32And where do you want your stock to go, up or down?

8:34How do you want it to go?

8:35You want it to go up or you want it to go down?

8:36Where do you want it to go?

8:37Up. You want it to go up.

8:38Okay. So do all the investors.

8:40Right. So does everybody who owns that stock.

8:43So does Wall Street. So does the CEO.

8:45So does the board. So does everybody.

8:47The people of the stock, everybody involved, all the employees that have stock options, including

8:51usually the major ones, everybody wants it to go up.

8:55If you lose money, it doesn't go up.

8:57So normally the interest to assure a product is safer is aligned with the profit

9:06motive. Because if your product causes injury and harm, then you're going to lose money.

9:11So you'll want to know typically.

9:13You have an economic self -interest as a corporation to know, not because you're altruistic,

9:18not because you're moral, not because you're ethical, just because you have that economic self

9:23-interest to assure the product is safe before you go to market and after you

9:27go to market. Okay. And that exists for every product in America with effectively one

9:33exception, vaccines. That's really it.

9:38Now, I'm going to show you one result of that in practice.

9:42Okay. When you think of drugs, and this will help, I think, tie into what

9:50you're saying about what happened with COVID.

9:53Most drugs are licensed based on multi -year placebo -controlled trials.

9:58Most of them. Why? Because the FDA requires it?

10:02Because the FDA is great.

10:03No. Nothing to do with the FDA.

10:06It's because the company wants to know whether the drug is safe or not before

10:11it goes to market. Because you know what happens with the drug that they put

10:14out that's going to make $40 billion in revenue or $20 billion but causes $100

10:17billion in harm? They end up upside down.

10:21So they want to know to a reasonable degree how safe the drug is before

10:28it goes to market. In an attempt not to cherry pick, as I did in

10:32my book, I found an article that listed the top four selling profitable drugs by

10:38Pfizer as of like 2000, 2021 or something, 2019.

10:42Okay. And if you look at those four most profitable drugs, as I put in

10:47my book, each one has two to seven years of follow -up in the clinical

10:52trial that was relied upon to license that drug against a placebo control group.

10:56Just to make sure everybody, I'm sure everybody knows what that means, but that just

10:59means a group that gets something inert.

11:01So this way you give a group the experimental drug, you give a group the

11:06placebo, something inert, you track them for multiple years, and then you compare all the

11:11outcomes, cardiovascular outcomes, neurological outcomes, I mean a lot, go down the list.

11:16And cancer rates, and you see the difference.

11:18You get a real actual sense of the safety between those two for that product.

11:25In contrast, for most childhood vaccines, instead of years, it's often days or weeks of

11:36safety review in the clinical trial.

11:37I would lie upon to license them.

11:40Not a single, and I know that folks can test this all the time, but

11:45it's in the FDA literature.

11:47Not a single routine injected childhood vaccine was licensed based on a placebo control trial,

11:55save for the COVID vaccine, by the way, for children.

11:58It's the only one. Not a single one, okay?

12:02Nor was the vaccine sometimes uses the control itself licensed based on a placebo control

12:12trial, nor anywhere down that chain.

12:16Chapter 10 of my book, I go through every vaccine.

12:19I go through, I have it all cited to the FDA licensure documents.

12:22You can listen to the talking heads.

12:24Or you can rely on the primary sources from the FDA, which is why I

12:29call my book Vaccines Amen, because there's what they tell you, and then there's what

12:32the actual evidence shows, right?

12:35So that gives you an example of the outcome of not having an economic self

12:40-interest. With drugs, they have it, so they want to know the safety.

12:43Can I challenge you on that?

12:44What about Vioxx? Like the Vioxx people knew that there was one of the things

12:49that was revealed during the trial is that they knew that there was going to

12:53be issues, but I think the quote was, we still think we'll do well, and

12:58that was one of the damning aspects of the email disclosure, because you got a

13:03chance to see how these guys talk about this drug that they're about to release.

13:06I think they wound up paying a percentage of the amount of money they made

13:12from the drug, but they made way more from the drug than they did the

13:17fine. No, I appreciate that challenge, and it's why I said when I was saying

13:21that they do the analysis of whether they're going to have $100 billion in loss

13:26or $40 billion in revenue.

13:28I'm not saying they won't put out a drug that causes harm.

13:31You're saying it can't cause too much harm?

13:34Exactly. Okay. They don't want to end up upside down.

13:38And remember, the whole reason a drug is licensed is because it can cause harm.

13:43The crazy thing about the Vioxx one is I think it killed somewhere north of

13:4750 ,000 people, and they still made profit off of it, which is kind of

13:54bananas. They pulled it and made billions in profit.

13:59This is the darker aspect of this.

14:02If you were talking about companies that never did anything wrong and had the highest

14:07moral and ethical standards, and they're the ones, because it's not about money.

14:12It's about saving people's health, and it's about public safety, and we've got to make

14:16sure that we do this right.

14:17We've got to make sure we squash all the disinformation.

14:19But that's not what you're talking about.

14:22You're talking about these companies that have been fined billions, billions of dollars in criminal

14:28fines for fraud, for all kinds of shit.

14:30These are the people. And the idea that they wouldn't lie about vaccines, like this

14:35is the one thing they're going to tell you the truth, ruthless, capitalist, attached to

14:39money and drugs. This is the one thing they're going to 100 % tell you

14:43the truth about. That seems kind of kooky.

14:45That's a hard sell for anybody who's not ideologically captured.

14:50That's a hard sell. Yeah.

14:52But I don't think you need to go down the road that there's some kind

14:56of evil nefariousness there. That's not what I'm saying.

14:58It's a broken economic and regulatory system from my perspective.

15:03Right. It's just a completely broken economic.

15:06To your point about Vioxx, right?

15:08So in Vioxx, it caused an incredible amount of harm, but they still decided that

15:14the benefits raised the risk.

15:15Do you know the story about the cars that used to explode?

15:18It's the classic case we learned in law school.

15:21And the gas tank and these cars - Was it a Pinto?

15:25It was the Pintos. That's right.

15:27Yeah. And a number of them exploded every year, burning the people inside them alive

15:30to death. Right? Horrible. Way to go.

15:33And there was a lawsuit.

15:35And in that lawsuit, what they discovered was the company had done an internal calculation

15:40in which it did the math.

15:43What's it going to cost to actually fix all the gas tanks?

15:47What's that dollar number versus what's it going to cost to just pay out for

15:51those deaths every year for those people that we burn knowingly are going to die

15:55and burn to death in those cars.

15:56And the calculation was that it was going to cost less to pay out for

16:02the deaths. And that is what the internal document showed.

16:05And that, by the way, is in part the case, the quintessential case you learn

16:09in law school for why they have punitive damages.

16:13Because the punitive damages were there to force the company to conform its conduct in

16:21exactly that scenario where the economics weren't going to do it.

16:25Right? Even in something that horrible, when the market forces weren't sufficient, the economic self

16:31-interest wasn't there, you had to make it happen.

16:34How? Through punitive damages. I know there's a lot of news about punitive damages.

16:40Oh, it's excessive and so forth.

16:41But that's what they're there for.

16:42They're there for that scenario.

16:44We're just holding them accountable.

16:46Now, go back to vaccines.

16:48Think about how incredibly harmful and how much harm these vaccines must do that they

16:56cannot survive on the market without this immunity from 1986.

17:01Think about that. If you were going to steal me on the argument against that,

17:04wouldn't you say, look, we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing

17:12us the most important medication that's available to humans.

17:15The whole reason why we survive smallpox and polio and all these different things, it's

17:21these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead.

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18:37Let's just assume that the last part of what you said.

18:38Let's just assume that the last part of what you said.

18:38True, which we know it's not.

18:40But with that said, let's steal manning it.

18:43Easy response. Okay. Okay. Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a

18:54lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects, can survive

19:00on the market profitably. Think about that for a second.

19:03Why? Okay. Here's why. It's a little bit of legal stuff, but it's not that

19:09hard. It's not that bad.

19:10Okay. The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that

19:17it could have been made safer.

19:18It's called a design defect claim.

19:20It's a claim where I say, hey, had you put in a two cent stopper

19:26on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded.

19:29If you had put in a one penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have

19:34my finger. Okay. Design defect claim.

19:37The claim you could have made a product safer.

19:39It is the primary claim you would bring for a product.

19:43Okay. Injury claim. So how do you protect against it?

19:47You make the product as technologically safe as possible.

19:51Right? So if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just

19:55talked about, make the drug as safe as possible.

19:58Make sure that there are no contaminants.

20:00Make sure that you use the best possible ingredients.

20:03Make sure the combination, right?

20:04The safest adjuvant. Go down the road.

20:07That's number one. Number two.

20:10The second way you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure

20:16to warrant claim. I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could

20:20have caused. Okay? And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself?

20:24The company has to disclose all the potential harms.

20:27If it has it right there in the package insert and you get it and

20:30it says, hey, it can cause this, this, this, this, this.

20:31You were told. You chose to still take the product.

20:34They made it as safe as technologically feasible.

20:36They disclosed the risks. And that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical

20:41products, with drug products. Okay?

20:43Why can't they do those with vaccines?

20:45Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible?

20:48Can't sue them for design defect and disclose all the actual risks in the package

20:52insert. Okay? The logical conclusion is, and one other point to that, and then I'll,

20:57I'll respond to your steel man.

20:58Okay? Okay. And it's this, all right?

21:01It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines.

21:03Hep B vaccine, for example, licensed in 86 and 89, the two standalones.

21:07It's been 40 years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to

21:10lift that immunity. You're giving it to millions of kids a year.

21:13You're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product and you still don't

21:17know it's safe enough to lift that immunity, please.

21:21Okay. If I was a silly person, I would probably say these vaccines are more

21:27important than any medication that's ever existed because they are the reason why we are

21:32here. Okay. Because that's how we survive smallpox and polio and the measles and everything

21:37else. And without them, we would have perished.

21:42We would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have

21:46been healthy. We would have gone through mass plagues.

21:50Okay. I'll respond to that.

21:51So because of that, it's just important that they stay in business.

21:57Well, a few things. And we trust the science.

21:59We should trust the science, Aaron.

22:00Trust the science. Yes. Believe.

22:01Aaron, trust the science. Yes, sir.

22:05Amen. Amen. I try not to do too much believing and I try to do

22:11a little bit of evidence -based thinking.

22:12But any event, look, when it comes to these products, I save my beliefs for

22:17religion, the unanswerables, where do we go when we die, and so forth.

22:21I have to take a leap of faith and I do it when I need

22:24to, but you don't need to with these products.

22:25Okay. On the first part of what you said, first of all, there are products

22:31probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment, no question about it,

22:36than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address

22:40in a second. Imagine you said, look, cars are essential.

22:44I mean, cars, you can't get in an ambulance.

22:45You can't get to the hospital.

22:46Without cars, you can't get to work.

22:48You can't get to school.

22:49I mean, it's essential to a functioning society.

22:51So let's give cars a medium liability.

22:52Intuitively, you'd say, that's ridiculous.

22:54Right. On the deaths point, that is one of the myths.

22:58That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time, this notion

23:04that everybody in America die without vaccines.

23:07In chapter seven of my book, and I lay it out for every single disease,

23:11and what I do there is I say, okay, how many deaths were there in

23:17America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely used or so forth,

23:24okay? In any real degree.

23:26And what you find is, if you go down the list, there were typically dozens

23:31to hundreds, maybe a thousand or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate.

23:36The further back in time you go, the larger the number in that dozens to

23:41a thousand or so deaths, okay?

23:43For example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from.

23:49No measles vaccine, we're all going to die, right?

23:51That is the impression they give you.

23:53You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there

23:56was a measles vaccine in the United States?

23:57How many? About 400 a year.

24:00That's it? That's it. 400 a year, died in the United States at a time

24:04when everybody had measles, which comes out to about one in 450 ,000 Americans dying

24:10of measles that's in the CDC.

24:12Anybody listening to this who's like, come on, that's not true.

24:14CDC mortality documents on the CDC website cited in my book, 400.

24:19And don't about 50 ,000 people every year die from the flu?

24:23Well, that statistic includes bacterial deaths that they say are potentially the result from having

24:35influenza. So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you and that

24:40kills you? Is that the idea behind it?

24:44Well, that's just the way they gather the data is the way I'll put it.

24:47But with influenza, well, let me finish.

24:53Let me see if I finish up with measles because I think this is important

24:55on the measles one and I can deal with influenza as well but on the

24:59measles one just to really because you're saying well everybody would die without these.

25:03I don't think people think of influenza by the way they think of measles.

25:08They think of those diseases.

25:11I don't ever hear anybody say to me well everybody will die of influenza without

25:14influenza vaccines. Everybody it's available everybody can get it.

25:18The mortality hasn't changed much in fact if you look the mortality of influenza before

25:22influenza vaccines were widespread we're not doing that great.

25:26Okay anyway putting that aside for a moment.

25:28Not only that isn't there data that shows that if you get you're more likely

25:32to get other colds? Yeah I have a whole giant footnote in my book about

25:39this and I actually tweeted this out and did a stuff stick about this.

25:42A whole series of articles studies that show that those that have had the influenza

25:49vaccines maybe these studies often reflect have around the same rate of influenza maybe they

25:55have less respiratory influenza infections but they many studies show they have multiple times the

26:02rate of other respiratory infections so good job.

26:06Maybe you reduced your risk of influenza by this much but you've increased your risk

26:10of another different respiratory disease by that much.

26:13How much is it? How much is the increase?

26:15Depends on the study. Some studies show four times risk.

26:18Some studies show three times risk.

26:19Yeah. I mean literally three, four.

26:22I mean huge percentages so and they're statistically significant in these studies and so you

26:27know when you're looking at a now these are all retrospective epidemiological studies and but

26:32when you do a retrospective epi study which means you take existing data and then

26:36you study it versus saying okay we're going to do a study and follow people

26:40going forward. Okay. If you find like a 1 .3 time which means 30 percent

26:47increased risk like that that's a publishable finding.

26:50This is three 400 percent increased risk.

26:53Yes. And in many of these studies it's inconvenient data so obviously it's not talked

26:56about. Right. So 400 people's not a whole lot.

27:00I'm sure I mean it's sad when 400 people die but it's also one of

27:05those diseases that when you're a child it's much more survivable right than adult adults

27:11it's rough isn't it? Yeah.

27:14So measles the ideal age to get it is not when you're an infant which

27:19in the pre -vaccine era infants typically did not get measles because they got maternal

27:23immunity from the mother and you don't want to get it as an adult because

27:28it is more likely to cause problems which again in the pre -vaccine era wasn't

27:33a problem because everybody virtually got it as a child.

27:37Right. Yeah. And when you got it as a child my recollection of it was

27:43the episode of the Brady Bunch.

27:44Do you remember? Yeah. Remember that episode?

27:46Yeah they were laughing about it.

27:47Let's watch this. Find that clip and let's watch it because it's so indicative of

27:54what measles was actually like in the culture of the people that would get it

28:00all the time versus this boogeyman of today.

28:04I mean it is it's so stark it's so I mean it's like imagine the

28:08kid coming home hey mom I've got AIDS I got to stay home from school

28:10it's not that right it's it's the way that most folks who've had chicken pox

28:15think of chicken pox. Right.

28:17But we're told that it's killing people and we're told that it's killing people now

28:22we're told that it's killing it's always kids we're told it's killing kids now.

28:26Yeah. And look if anybody dies from measles I'm very sad but I want to

28:30know is it with measles?

28:33Remember the with COVID or from COVID?

28:35Like what kind of condition were these people in before this hit them?

28:40Because some I mean that was the thing about COVID it's like yeah it's fatal.

28:44If you have four plus comorbidities that's it's more you're more likely to be fatal

28:49and that was most of the people that wind up dying from it right?

28:52That's almost certainly the case and I can I can add another data point to

28:57that to help support that which is that between 1900 and this is again CDC

29:02data between 1900 and the late 1950s early 1960s the mortality from measles declined in

29:10the United States by over 98 percent.

29:13You know what didn't cause that?

29:16Vaccines. Yeah because it didn't exist I know so right but but so immunity had

29:21become a herd thing just like COVID -ish right now well everybody basically has had

29:28COVID or at least has been exposed to it by now yeah here it is

29:31what's yeah it's a whole episode there's multiple clips I don't know which one is

29:34just just let's just try I think it's he finds out he's coming over put

29:40on your headphones for a second so we could hear this Aaron oh yeah grab

29:44your headphones thank you no are you sure it's the measles well he's certainly got

29:49all the symptoms a slight temperature a lot of dots and a great big smile

29:52a great big smile no school for a few days you've got measles golly mothers

30:01are supposed to know everything but do you have to keep proving it you've got

30:05a temperature too what do you mean to Peter was sent home from school a

30:09little while ago oh what was his temperature 101 .1 oh is that all I'm

30:13101 .2 oh Greg you want my railroad I'll be a sport you can ride

30:20on it free thanks a lot it's your turn Peter they're having a measles party

30:29boy this is the life isn't it yeah if you have to get sick you

30:34sure can't beat the measles that's right no medicine inside or out like shots I

30:38mean don't even mention shots yeah okay I mean am I crazy or or or

30:46have we gone through the one of the wildest gas lightings of anything ever there's

30:51there's people out there that because of the things that you've said so far about

30:55the measles will be 100 % freaking out on Twitter right but this is this

31:01is a window into how the American public thought I know it's a television show

31:05I know it's a sitcom but you can't joke around about stuff that other people

31:10wouldn't think is funny yeah every people would think that was funny these kids saying

31:14if you're gonna get sick you should get the measles and everybody at home be

31:18like oh i wish i had a day off well that's how they thought of

31:21it yeah and to put hard data on it going back to that statistic over

31:2798 reduction remember it's not like covid joe because covid there was no immunity in

31:33the population right right measles has been around for forever as far as we know

31:38thousands of years the year 1900 wasn't the beginning of herd immunity 1900 measles already

31:46endemic everybody was getting measles so every year there's a few million people cohort that

31:51were getting it and you had to decline and so you have to ask yourself

31:55what was the decline um it was probably better sanitation better acute medical care i

32:02mean um all kinds of things and you know who could take credit for most

32:05of that stuff better sanitation uh better living conditions better uh you name it probably

32:11public health authorities meaning the improvement in acute care the introduction of antibiotics better living

32:19conditions not having sewage in the street you name it right probably had a massive

32:24contributor to that reduction but they never point to that and there's one other really

32:30inconvenient data point with measles and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks

32:34out there who you were just saying are going to watch the show and it's

32:37this that over 98 reduction in mortality there's no reason that that curve was not

32:44going to continue because pockets of the united states in late 50s early 60s were

32:49like a developing country in a developing country kids are going to die of any

32:53infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions and as those improved most likely that

32:59400 deaths also would have continued to decline 4 .2 million births in the united

33:04states in the late 50s early 60s about 3 .8 million births today so in

33:08fact there's less children being born in america today than there was then so you

33:12have a you have a smaller cohort of babies young children to infect and final

33:18data point and it's this this is really i know this is this is going

33:23to cause cognitive dissonance for some but studies that have looked at those that have

33:30had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a

33:36statistically significant greater reduction in deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers so i'll give

33:46you an example there's a 20 year 22 year prospective study in japan done by

33:52funded by the government of japan and major universities that tracked 100 000 people in

33:56japan for 22 years and it found that those that had measles and mumps had

34:03a 20 percent statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease think about that for

34:08a second just think about that about 800 000 americans die of cardiovascular disease if

34:14eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the united states by even one

34:20percent on a life years lost basis you are still way upside down on your

34:27public health benefit by eliminating measles can i ask you what the speculation is how

34:31that could be why would measles and mumps infection at an early age improve your

34:36your health cardiovascularly why would it also those that have not had measles have a

34:4166 percent increase rate of non -hodgkin's lymphoma and 266 increase rate of hodgkin's lymphoma

34:48which kills 20 000 people a year why would women that have had measles have

34:5250 percent less ovarian cancer which kills a lot of women every year um what

34:58is it about it maybe and here's the thing um i'm you know and and

35:04you can have a evolutionary biologist talk about this as well you've had some on

35:08think about it this way pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages right right

35:13this one didn't measles mumps rubella chickenpox they didn't it could be maybe i'm not

35:19saying it is i'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect what

35:22i just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer they're all in pubmed they're

35:27all pubmed studies they're all in the published literature and they're all consistent having the

35:32findings that i just described okay i'm just a i'm just repeating to you with

35:35the data flex um it could be that having those febrile childhood infections conferred a

35:42survival advantage overall and it could be the reason they never actually went away over

35:47time became less obviously pathogenic the philly cheese stack is back at mcdonald's and it's

35:52still intensely cheesy imagine the cheesiest thing ever now cover it in cheese add two

35:57beef patties cheddar cheese sauce crispy onions and even more cheese the philly cheese stack

36:01did we mention it's cheesy available until the 16th of march 2026 from 11 a

36:07.m fees apply to delivery orders price and participation may vary subject to availability so

36:10it has like a hormetic effect and it makes you physically stronger somehow or another

36:14it makes your immune system stronger your cardiovascular like a stress test that means not

36:20outside the realm of possibility right i mean if lifting weights makes you stronger and

36:25you know studying makes you smarter would it make sense that some form of infection

36:29that you recover from will make you more resilient it does make sense um it

36:35just like no one wants to say to hey you should go get measles look

36:39theory of relativity in this world yeah theory of relativity is not intuitive why is

36:43it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of light does

36:47time relatively slow down i don't know if it makes sense or not it's just

36:52what when you put two atomic clocks on a plane one on the ground one

36:55in the plane you fly it around the earth they're not ticking the same so

36:58there it is right you can't pretend that that is what it is right it

37:02doesn't have to make sense to be true that's a good that's just what it

37:05is and i'm just saying what the studies show um very inconvenient a lot of

37:10cognitive dissonance there but it could very well be that our whole this whole program

37:13not only do we so going back to your whole going all the way back

37:16to your point you're like well they'll say vaccines are so important we got to

37:20give them this immunity No.

37:23In fact, quite the opposite.

37:25Our babies are so precious, are so important.

37:29We want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have.

37:33And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic

37:36interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.

37:39I agree with you entirely.

37:41But if I was questioning anything, I would say, okay, if we don't have genetic

37:48immunity anymore, because our parents didn't have it, because our parents are vaccinated against measles,

37:52wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of

37:58people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people?

38:03So this is a really important point, actually.

38:06I agree with you. Because here's here.

38:08Well, I'll put it into context.

38:10Before we get going, when they mandated vaccines or when they started giving them to

38:15people was what, in like the early 60s, I believe?

38:17For measles vaccines, 63. 63.

38:19Did a lot of people resist it?

38:21Was it back then, were the hippies opting out?

38:24Is there like a group that you could follow and track that never got it,

38:27never got the vaccine while everybody else did?

38:31It has to be, right?

38:32I'm sure there's a group out there you can identify.

38:34I mean, the Amish. There you go.

38:37Right. So, you know, who we represent right now, because New York's trying to basically

38:42kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.

38:45That's crazy. We just wanted, we just, in the U .S.

38:48Supreme Court, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few

38:53weeks ago. Do you remember when Kathy Hochul was talking about the vaccines like they're

38:57a gift from God? She believes it.

39:00Did you, but do you remember how she was saying it?

39:01It was like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business,

39:06if you were running a Chevy, and you're making a new Corvette, and you started

39:10talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody would go, oh, Kathy's

39:15cracked. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about?

39:18It's a bunch of engineers.

39:19We put together a great car.

39:20Like, what do you, it's a gift from God.

39:22What? People don't say, I believe in tables, or I believe in chairs, I believe

39:26in TVs, and I believe in wallpaper.

39:28Right. But they say, I believe in vaccines all the time, because it carries a

39:31truism. But do they work?

39:33Like, does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles, or is it a leaky

39:37vaccine? Is it a completely...

39:41So, answering that and your prior question at the same time...

39:44Sorry. No, no, no. Don't be sorry.

39:45I'm very scattered. No, you're not scattered at all.

39:48Is that the measles vaccine, measles, MMR vaccine, and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission.

39:58That is not true of most vaccines, but those can't.

40:03So... Those can. Those can.

40:05And so, to your... Now going back, so that's the differential.

40:08And in fact, for most of the other vaccines, like pertussis vaccine and so forth,

40:12they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated, and I can

40:16tell you all about that.

40:17But before I do that, let me just point out that, to your last comment,

40:22because measles, MMR vaccine, and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission, you are correct.

40:28If measles were to come through society right now, right now, in the current time,

40:34it would be problematic, because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more

40:38likely to get it, because the mothers aren't conferring the same maternal immunity that they

40:42did in the pre -vaccine era, because the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of

40:45immunity anywhere near. And older folks, because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having

40:52had the infection, depending on the study, 2 % to 10 % do not seroconvert,

40:57even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all, pretty much, or

41:02immunity as considered immune. And it wanes.

41:04Is this when they take it later in life, or when they take it when

41:06they're young? This is when they take it when they're young.

41:10And that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a

41:13call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right?

41:17There's guidance on that. Because it doesn't confer.

41:20If you've had measles, you're done.

41:21You never need a vaccine.

41:23Again, you'll never get measles again.

41:25One and done. Right. But, so yes, it would be problematic right now for those,

41:34for MMR, measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox to just kind of let it rip.

41:39You would have to really, you know, have an educational campaign beforehand if you were

41:44going to do that. But for the other vaccines, hep B vaccine, pertussis vaccine, not

41:48a problem. Those vaccines don't stop transmission.

41:51The hep B ones, kind of crazy that they give that to babies.

41:56It's kind of crazy. Kind of crazy if the parent aren't intervening as drug users

42:01or whatever, whatever would give them hep B, that you're going to inject a baby

42:07with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease and like a

42:12rarely, you got to be doing something rough.

42:15Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU.

42:20I mean, it just seems crazy.

42:24It is. And here, I'll give you another data point, which is in Denmark, okay,

42:32there is no hep B, universal hep B for kids.

42:35The only time they give hep B in Denmark is if the mother is hep

42:39B positive. So their hep B vaccination rate amongst children is like 0 .1 %

42:45or something to that effect, okay?

42:47So here you go. Two first world countries, America and Denmark.

42:51Universal hep B here, virtually zero hep B vaccine given there.

42:55The rate of hep B amongst children, not statistically significant.

42:59You know what is different between those two countries?

43:01The rate of harm from hep B vaccine.

43:05That's different. You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of

43:09life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day

43:13of life? Hepatitis B vaccine.

43:15In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a newborn that died from a

43:19hep B vaccine. And I said earlier, you can't sue the manufacturers.

43:23You cannot. There is a little program though in the federal government where you can

43:28bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine.

43:30That's what I'm talking about right now.

43:31I went about the baby that died of hep B.

43:33It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

43:35I have like 20 folks in my firm that do that work.

43:38And, you know, it's not like a regular court.

43:40You don't get an Article III judge, Article III of the Constitution, a federal judge.

43:44You don't get any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms.

43:47There's a $250 ,000 statutory cap on pain and suffering and on death, which is

43:51ridiculous. And it doesn't have, you know, anyways, long story short, it's paid out about

43:56$5 billion for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years.

44:00But so I didn't want people to get confused.

44:03Like when I said, well, how did this baby get adjudicated?

44:06It got adjudicated in this program.

44:08Got it. Got it. So when you have conversations with people and they are the

44:17way you used to be and the way I used to be, where you just

44:20sort of just assumed that the people that are experts in their fields are doing

44:26a great job and that's why we're alive.

44:28And you start telling them these things.

44:30Like, are you a real problem at a cocktail party?

44:33Like, have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways and they started

44:40getting angry at you for quoting things?

44:42Yeah. It's not a problem for me because I don't know emotions or feelings about

44:47the products. They're just products.

44:48Right. They're no different for me.

44:50But a lot of folks, there's two things.

44:55First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to drive a lot

45:01of their self -schema almost, their value, their worth from these products.

45:04They saved humanity. How could you question that?

45:07We are the saviors, right?

45:09In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right?

45:12What's the only thing that will save us during COVID?

45:14Was it God? No. Vaccines.

45:16That's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know, okay?

45:21But they don't know intellectually.

45:23They've never looked at the primary sources.

45:25So when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from?

45:28The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions.

45:31They draw from their feelings.

45:32And that's why they get angry.

45:34I do get that all the time.

45:36But I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.

45:40Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.

45:45Absolutely. I think COVID in that respect forced the conversation.

45:49You had millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago

45:54when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo?

45:57What's a clinical trial? What's this stuff?

45:59Like this became, or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was

46:04just that notion was totally taboo seven years ago.

46:08Right. No more. Yeah. I think you're entirely correct.

46:12And also credit to YouTube because YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why

46:16I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube.

46:19I mean, before I had, I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social

46:22media, but then, you know, I've watched a bunch of your stuff now on, on

46:26YouTube. Whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would have got removed.

46:31I was removed. Everything I said was removed.

46:35I'll tell you the first thing that ever posted that got said, it was on,

46:38it was on Twitter. Yeah.

46:40The old Twitter. So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the

46:44documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID -19 vaccine.

46:47Okay. Yeah. They, they licensed it in 42 days.

46:50And we said, all right, 42 days, give us all the documents.

46:52Right. And they want to forever.

46:53They wanted to produce that at a rate of a few hundred pages a month,

46:55which would have taken hundreds of years effectively.

46:59Got a tranche of those documents, took some of them, literally took one of the

47:03documents and posted it. And my tweet was just literally quoting from the document effectively.

47:11And that was taken down as misinformation.

47:13Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA.

47:15One of the first things that, that was just, that was mind jarring.

47:20It was stunning. It was stunning to watch people not be outraged too.

47:24When information was getting out about different people that were silenced, Jay Bhattacharya and all

47:30those different people that were getting attacked, Martin Koldorf.

47:33It was stunning how no one was going, Hey, what is going on here?

47:38This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford and,

47:43and banning their accounts. Like that's fucking crazy.

47:45And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it.

47:50We didn't really, we really weren't aware of that.

47:53It was government involvement that they were stepping in to remove and remove mal information.

47:58That was my favorite. They came up with, you know, that one disinformation, malinformation, mal

48:03is the best because it's true information that might cause problems, which is fucking almost

48:10everything. As soon as you have a problem with mal information, like you are encouraging

48:15the creepiest kind of group think that's available and no one freaked out.

48:20Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough.

48:22It wasn't, it should have been bipartisan, should have been a bipartisan freak out.

48:26It should have been left and right, but it got politicized in this really stupid

48:29way where people on the left were pro vaccine and pro pharmaceutical drug company and

48:35pro narrative and people on the right were like, I'm going to take my chances.

48:38And those were the kooks.

48:39And, you know, it was just like ideological battle as much as it was a

48:43public health crisis. Censorship was bad.

48:47It was very bad, real bad, but I'll tell you what made me think people

48:53were going to go into the street with pitchforks was when the government told everybody

48:57stay at home. That wasn't hidden.

49:00That wasn't behind the scenes, the stuff you're talking about.

49:03They said, stay in your house.

49:06They didn't say we recommend you stay in your houses.

49:10They didn't say we recommend you get this vaccine.

49:14We didn't recommend you wear this mask.

49:16They said, stay in your house.

49:18When they had that first order came down, I was like, people are just going

49:23to be outraged. People are going to protest.

49:25And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally.

49:28And I'll tell you why.

49:30Okay. Because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to

49:36free speech, the assembly, right?

49:38That was passed and adopted by the states in 1791.

49:43What's the First Amendment intended to do?

49:45It's restrict government from infringing on those rights.

49:48You think life was easy in 1791?

49:51What do you think life was like in 1791?

49:54You think it was easy.

49:55You think it was all hunky -dory.

49:57Life in 1791 was brutal!

50:01Brutal! You want to talk about disease, pestilence, famine, war?

50:06You want to talk about a life that is no electricity, no running water, no

50:11suet, nothing. And that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that.

50:17And here comes a virus.

50:21And every right you have is basically taken away.

50:24And Americans are like, take it!

50:28Take it away! That is what outraged me.

50:32Because look, what was the whole point of this country?

50:36What is America born out of, in my view?

50:39It's born out of the idea that every other government that preceded it got it

50:46wrong in the following sense.

50:48Your life should not be dictated by a king or a dictator or a power

50:53bureau or a central authority.

50:54It's the idea that you are born with inalienable rights.

50:58You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you want to take.

51:03Individual rights come with risks.

51:05Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks.

51:10Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin.

51:14A very interesting time yesterday.

51:16That comes with risks, let me tell you.

51:18A lot of risks, okay?

51:20But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government.

51:24Because once you do, you don't get it back often.

51:26And so, yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about.

51:28And that was bad. Don't get me wrong.

51:30That was bad stuff. That was really, really bad.

51:33But the stuff they did in the open, to me, in some ways, was even

51:37worse. And I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that.

51:41Because let me tell you something.

51:42Even if you love every vaccine out there, you listen to this, you love every

51:45vaccine. You love every mask, right?

51:49Great. I support every American's right.

51:51You're 17. You're 18. You're totally healthy.

51:54No comorbidities. And you want to get a vaccine a day, wear 70 masks and

51:57live in your basement and a self -imposed day at home order.

52:00This is America. I support your right to do.

52:02I'll fight for your right to do that.

52:03And you're 90 and you're a war veteran and you have 16 comorbidities and you

52:08want to go to the coffee shop with no vaccine and no mask.

52:11You should be free to do that because that's America too.

52:14That's freedom also. Just like you can bull ride.

52:16And if you don't stand up for that right now, the day comes when there's

52:21something, a medical product you don't want, the government says you have to get.

52:25Because trust me, it is so much cheaper to lobby to get a medical product

52:30required than it is to market to get people to get it.

52:34Oh, they've learned that lesson.

52:35That's why there's so much lobbying to get mandates, get rid of exemptions across the

52:39country that you don't want and you can't get a job and you can't go

52:44to school and you can't leave your house.

52:45Then what good are the rest of your rights?

52:48They're useless. That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right.

52:52I'm off my high horse.

52:53No, it's a great high horse.

52:54That was an awesome rant.

52:55You're absolutely 100 % on the money.

52:57And it's such an important thing to get out there, to get people to understand

53:06that it's such a natural human inclination to when you're in a place of power,

53:13of control, any form of government, you want more control.

53:17And it's just natural. And what you're talking about, when you lose rights, you very

53:22rarely get them back. That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations,

53:28because they had everybody locked down way past where they had to.

53:33A friend of mine's brother worked in one of the COVID, some government office, when

53:40they were considering the closing of outdoor dining.

53:43And he brought up, but there's no transmission related to outdoor dining.

53:49And the woman who was in charge said, yes, but it's all about the optics.

53:54So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor

54:00dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after

54:07COVID. Barely. We lost somewhere around 70 % of Los Angeles restaurants went under during

54:13COVID. That's fucking bananas. And so they finally get outdoor dining.

54:18Like, okay, we could kind of pay the bills this month.

54:21And then they shut down outdoor dining for optics.

54:24So this, this, this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people,

54:29keep a boot on their neck.

54:30It's normal. Even if it doesn't make sense.

54:33Everybody knows that from high school.

54:35Everybody knows that from, I mean, the Stanford prison experiments.

54:39People like to control people.

54:40They enjoy it. And when they get a place like becoming the mayor or becoming

54:45the governor and being able to tell people, oh, you got to listen to me.

54:49I've got rule. Everyone stay inside.

54:51Be scared. Fucking California. Garcetti literally had a campaign that said snitches get rewards.

55:01Snitches. Snitching on people. Having more than one person over your house.

55:05Standing too close in the backyard.

55:07You get money. You get money for ratting out your neighbor.

55:11This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

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56:19Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always, always double down because, and that's

56:24the problem with the mandates.

56:25Once they've required it, they have taken a position, and then to admit they're wrong,

56:31often what government ends up saying is, oh, well, we're the CDC.

56:36If we admit we're wrong about this, that's going to hurt our ability to influence

56:41the public, and that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course

56:46because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important.

56:51We have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong.

56:53That's what Bobby's doing right now with some of these things is, you know, is

56:57some of the stuff like the new autism page on the CDC website, for example,

57:04is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to

57:08date. But yes, it's disturbing, and it's why government should, no public health authority should

57:16ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights.

57:19They should be able to recommend, recommend the law, recommend like crazy, but never do

57:24it because that is the normal course of how tyranny dictators, bullies, thugs operate.

57:33First, they tell you what to do.

57:35You don't listen, apply a little pressure.

57:38You don't listen, and they mandate.

57:41You still don't listen, they censor you.

57:44Still, take away more of your rights.

57:46That is the normal progression throughout history, and we saw it happen in front of

57:49our eyes, which is why it should be a line in the sand.

57:52And federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage, never

57:58mandate, ever. Fauci literally expressed it that way.

58:02I'm sure you've heard that recording of him.

58:04He said, once people realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit,

58:10and they'll get vaccinated. Like he's essentially telling them, you're going to make people's life

58:17hell, and they'll do what you want them to do.

58:20Not they will have free will.

58:22They will have the ability to choose.

58:24No, no, no. You will make them do what you want.

58:28Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits?

58:31Forget that. But imagine that that is something that someone said out loud.

58:36But I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything.

58:43Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant

58:48leap into some new territory.

58:51To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the

58:56last 40 years with vaccines.

58:58Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now to get children.

59:03Most states have, 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to send your kids

59:08to school. There's trying to eliminate exemptions, right?

59:15Clearly, they're able to persuade most parents on the merits.

59:18But yet, they can't take it.

59:20They can't take that a two, three, four percent just will not take these products.

59:25And I'll tell you, by the way, most of these folks are.

59:28They're the folks who really need the exemptions because most people who don't choose to

59:34take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for

59:37fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, you know what I'm going

59:41to do today? I'm going to take a socially ostracizing position.

59:45I might get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job.

59:47My friends call me an anti -this and anti -that.

59:50You know, you name it.

59:52All the horribles that come with not vaccinating.

59:54No. Most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or

1:00:01negative experience with these products.

1:00:04They are one of their kids or one of their family members, or they've learned

1:00:06stuff they cannot learn about them.

1:00:08They have usually a very good reason not to.

1:00:11And yet, as you saw during COVID, it's not about, in many respects, the medicine,

1:00:21to the examples you gave.

1:00:23It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs.

1:00:28They cannot extend the exceptions.

1:00:30Those who stand up say, no, I've come to a different medical conclusion.

1:00:35They can't let that exist.

1:00:37Right. That is what it is.

1:00:39And it happens for people regardless of their religious status.

1:00:46It's a weird thing. It is like a religion.

1:00:49I mean, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way, because

1:00:51I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and of just complying that people automatically

1:01:01fall into. It's very easy.

1:01:04That's why people can get people to join cults.

1:01:06That's why people are part of like weird Christian sects.

1:01:09Like, wait, what do you guys do?

1:01:11Huh? You're like, who's the guy?

1:01:13Who's the head guy? This guy?

1:01:14And he gets to marry everybody?

1:01:16What? Okay. What? Well, that's what happened.

1:01:19It's normal. It's a normal thing.

1:01:21And if you scale it outward, it goes to a lot of stuff.

1:01:25There's a lot of stuff that people just have these like, climate changes of religion

1:01:28right now. Like there's certain people that if you confront them with like the actual,

1:01:34the ones that are willing to question the narrative that are legitimate client scientists, they'll

1:01:39tell you like, it is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes

1:01:45in the earth climate, warmth and cold.

1:01:48And the fact that it's never been static ever in human history, never before humans,

1:01:53never millions of years. It's done this crazy thing.

1:01:56It involves the precision of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex.

1:02:00And it's a lot of, and then also stuff we burn that too, but like

1:02:04what percentage is what, but it doesn't matter.

1:02:07You can't have that conversation.

1:02:08It's like you questioning, you know, whatever Messiah this person believes in, they'll just lock

1:02:14down and climate change is this, not one climate change prediction of doom is.

1:02:20accurate not one not even in the ballpark you remember the fucking Al Gore movie

1:02:26yeah we're supposed to be dead and meanwhile they're all buying fucking oceanfront houses in

1:02:32Maui you know get out of here shut the fuck up this is another thing

1:02:37this is another thing like yeah we shouldn't pollute yeah we shouldn't release particulates in

1:02:41the atmosphere yeah we should have clean energy yeah but also you guys are crooks

1:02:45you guys are a bunch of crooks that are making money off of this idea

1:02:49that you're forcing down everybody's throat that everybody's got a green new deal and everybody's

1:02:54got to do renewable this renewable and then who's got money invested in all this

1:02:58stuff a bunch of people who are pushing it and it's a fucking scam just

1:03:02like so many of these things are fucking scams doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware

1:03:07of the damage that we're doing to the earth we should probably stop overfishing the

1:03:11ocean we should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers of 100 you know who

1:03:16used to go to court for that rfk jr he fucking cranks the guy who

1:03:23is like cleaning up the east river that's bobby kennedy jr he was the guy

1:03:28and an easy way to identify that somebody's not really coming at you with science

1:03:34and they're coming at you with belief religion yes is exactly what you just said

1:03:39which is they're not willing to debate they're not willing to discuss it they're not

1:03:44willing to engage because that is antithetical to the scientific method the whole idea is

1:03:50it's never settled the whole idea is you push the fringes you push new theories

1:03:55you push new ideas where would science be if you said this is it of

1:03:58course that is the whole notion of it dispassionately looking at it over and over

1:04:04and over and seeing what more you can learn and the moment somebody says no

1:04:08we need to stop you can't discuss you can't debate that that's when you know

1:04:12you're dealing with a religion not science and when i've talked to certain scientists in

1:04:16different fields that uh feel very constricted by the academic environment one of the things

1:04:22that they point to is that the group think involved in that it's just like

1:04:25the group think involved in everything and left -wing politics whatever it is just figure

1:04:30out whatever it is right -wing politics group think in academia is also higher it's

1:04:35hierarchical there's there's tiers and you got to agree with everybody that's above you you

1:04:41want to get tenure you want to progress you want to get grants it's got

1:04:44to be you guys got to be in line on all this shit and he's

1:04:48like and anybody thinks out of the box is ruthlessly attacked and even when they

1:04:52turn out to be correct no one apologizes no they are reluctantly agree that the

1:04:58person was initially correct but they'll destroy their career if they can he's like the

1:05:03pissing matches are horrifying and these are the people that are in charge of telling

1:05:08you what's real in the world they're just like everybody else they're there they have

1:05:13ego and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times and people are

1:05:19playing succession and game of thrones it's like it's the reality is not what you're

1:05:25being told in the news what you're being told in the news is a narrative

1:05:29and when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising it's paid

1:05:34by pharmaceutical drug companies and they never criticize me like this is wild like this

1:05:40is wild that this this is america in 2026 and the only way you can

1:05:45find out what's kind of real is on the internet yes and uh also um

1:05:53when it comes to censorship if i said some totally crazy stupid thing about you

1:06:00that was totally untrue right ignore it if i said about government they ignore it

1:06:04when do they censor they censor when it's true because that's when they're scared right

1:06:09if you start talking about the government being lizard people nobody's gonna nobody cares nobody

1:06:14comes for you they're all shapeshifters nobody cares but when you start talking about something

1:06:19that's true that's when it hurts that's when they that's what they need to suppress

1:06:24you think they need to suppress stuff about um i don't know a certain island

1:06:28with death where if it's not true no but if it is true that's when

1:06:33it gets scary and that's when you need suppression right and also i'll note i

1:06:37went to berkeley for law school so i i'm familiar with a little bit of

1:06:42what you're just talking about from that experience too it was too you know it

1:06:44was over two decades ago it was going strong back then strong back then but

1:06:49i feel like it was much more reasonable like i used to love san francisco

1:06:52back then it was a it was a great town to visit they were smart

1:06:56they were cool they were laid back people like to drink but they were fun

1:07:00they always seem like a smarter la that got out of show business san francisco

1:07:05berkeley yeah university were two different things i completely agree and even in i mean

1:07:10if let's throw outside the bubble of berkeley from 20 years ago look back over

1:07:1520 20 years ago who was fighting for civil individual rights it was the left

1:07:21aclu think about skokie illinois right fighting for the neo -nazis to be able to

1:07:27march through a jewish town to say what they want who fought that case who

1:07:31protected their right to say that democrat aclu liberal lawyers and liberal judges and they

1:07:38said protecting their right to say the things they're saying is despicable as horrible as

1:07:43we might find it protects all our right to free speech could you imagine those

1:07:46same folks today bringing that case and deciding that way no way no way and

1:07:51no way stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then if you had ultimate

1:07:56access to information literally you could pick up your phone and ask it any question

1:08:01about anything and get information instantaneously would people be more or less informed you would

1:08:11say well certainly they'll be more informed so there'll be more understanding of the value

1:08:16of free speech and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance

1:08:20they took to allow the kkk to march and how it just shows intellectual superiority

1:08:24the way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it is to argue

1:08:29it with a much better idea that you would think by 2026 although they'll be

1:08:33way better this would be a super advanced society of flying cars no no no

1:08:39it's um more ideologically captured more wrapped up in the algorithm which i think is

1:08:45probably at least 50 fake 50 is a bunch of bots tweeting a bunch of

1:08:52shit that's you know they don't even believe they're just trying to rile people up

1:08:56and stir people up and and push certain narratives and then people are locked into

1:09:00it 12 hours a day so they're really crazy and no one's considering things like

1:09:05the important well let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they

1:09:09did that and it was like no no everybody's like captured with whatever the fuck

1:09:12is on tiktok today what's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention

1:09:16to and the fact that now we're at war right okay great it social media

1:09:23and the scrolling through those videos which is what you're describing i think is so

1:09:27troubling but first of all my understanding is that they just show you stuff that

1:09:31confirms what you already believe because that's what you want to see you want to

1:09:35see the things that you already agree with so you just get this credible confirmation

1:09:39bias that happens which is antithetical to to to thinking critically to really opening your

1:09:45mind to it and then you end up you know uh without because without actually

1:09:49understanding both sides of an argument without really understanding it i mean look i understand

1:09:53the stuff about vaccines that i know which ones stop transmission right and i know

1:09:58which ones don't right and i don't have to live in the world of believing

1:10:02for example they all do i know how much death there was before each vaccine

1:10:06and i know so i don't have to say didn't ever save any life and

1:10:10i don't have to say millions would die i just the data's the data right

1:10:14and and but you know if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time

1:10:18you're not you get this terrible confirmation bias and did you see this recent study

1:10:22that i i did i just read the um the abstract so i didn't delve

1:10:26into it but apparently watching social media reduces your iq over time you know just

1:10:32doing all of that scrolling that's that's really scary when you think about it makes

1:10:36our current generation yeah imagine if it could make you smarter how many more people

1:10:40would be interested in doing it right like if there was a thing if you

1:10:43could just stare at your phone for a few hours a day and you get

1:10:45significantly smarter it's a 10 point jump in iq you know my wife calls our

1:10:50wi -fi at our house what if you find the wi -fi it's called read

1:10:52a book i'm not kidding that's funny that's funny and then you hear things like

1:10:57you shouldn't have wi -fi in your house because all the signals flying around are

1:11:00bad for you like how bad are you sure like what is that like how

1:11:05long have we been doing the wi -fi thing a decade two decades three decades

1:11:09i mean on the course of of the length of humanity that's not very long

1:11:13it's not very long i mean look i hope wi -fi's not killing us i

1:11:16really do it's so convenient look at most most listen obviously most things that will

1:11:21just kill you get identified right it's not the things that kill you immediately that

1:11:26are a problem typically because right they killed you and so you know it's the

1:11:31things that that cause slow issues ongoing issues i mean we know folks who work

1:11:36in high power lines have higher far higher rates of cancer study after study reflects

1:11:40that which makes sense i mean right i mean and look for the ipod's bad

1:11:45for you you know what i mean if air pods are bad in your ears

1:11:49imagine being next to those power lines what does that do to you i don't

1:11:53want to go down this rabbit hole because it's not my my area per se

1:11:56but for the whole length of humanity right when you think of the of of

1:12:00the the spectrum right we were pretty much only exposed to natural light which is

1:12:05a very narrow light narrow band of the of the spectrum okay all right when

1:12:10you think of waves so as you go down on the left side of the

1:12:13spectrum the waves get longer like am raves really long fm raves microwaves natural light

1:12:20and then above that you get x -rays cosmic rays and anything above natural light

1:12:24they say oh it's really bad that's just gonna mess you up and stuff below

1:12:27natural light they they say well as long as it doesn't heat up your cells

1:12:31that's typically the standard our government uses it's safe so as long as it's not

1:12:36heating your cell but that's not that's a very old standard but it's still the

1:12:40one in effect today so um in any event when you think about microwaves they

1:12:47said stay away from even those below natural light there's um you know what is

1:12:53the cumulative effect of being if you put your wi -fi around under your bed

1:12:56every night your whole life what is the effect there are numerous studies that show

1:13:00that it does have certain effects but i i anyway it's not worth going down

1:13:04that road but yeah but it might just be minor or it might be cumulative

1:13:08right yeah and then how about cell phone signals you can't even stop those they're

1:13:13around you all the time yeah i mean if you can facetime someone in new

1:13:17zealand right now from your phone clearly something's going on in the air i'll put

1:13:21it this way every environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation

1:13:26in your body whether it's microplastics whether it's you name it okay and the precautionary

1:13:32principle would indicate that until you know it's safe the onus is on those who

1:13:37want to expose you to it to prove to you it is right it shouldn't

1:13:40be the other way around i don't think anybody has to prove to you that

1:13:44wi -fi is not safe to say you know what based on the precautionary principle

1:13:47i'm just going to turn off the wi -fi every night in my house because

1:13:50i don't know like that doesn't seem unreasonable to me because humans have been exposed

1:13:56to it forever i've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an

1:13:59issue or or large robust studies and so you know but obviously i think what

1:14:06i just said my some people might hear and go well that sounds crazy but

1:14:09why why would it be crazy if we we found out that there's a particular

1:14:14frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using

1:14:17it to broadcast something that that completely makes sense yeah except that i never think

1:14:22about harms the way you just said it because that would indicate that we have

1:14:27to find out what harms it causes right i to me when i go into

1:14:33a car dealership for example i walk in and and and the salesman says all

1:14:38right this car okay and i say well is it safe and the car dealer

1:14:43says to me prove to me it's not safe and i said well and i

1:14:48said well what do you what do you What do you mean?

1:14:50If you can't prove it, you've got to take this car.

1:14:52By the way, that's how vaccines work.

1:14:54That's how I lock. And that has become a little bit of the, depending on

1:14:59mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products where it's

1:15:02like, you've got to prove it's not safe.

1:15:03No, I don't have to prove it's not safe.

1:15:05I'm not buying this car.

1:15:06You prove to me it's no.

1:15:07You prove to me this vaccine causes harm or you better take it.

1:15:12That's the way it's approached.

1:15:14It's a little bit like that Wi -Fi and with 5G and the LTE and

1:15:17all that stuff. It's almost like you prove to me that doing this all day

1:15:21is going to cause brace cancer or else you're a kook.

1:15:24No, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that.

1:15:27That's the way it should work with products and product safety.

1:15:29That makes sense. That's very reasonable.

1:15:33Again, I don't know. I'm not saying that it does.

1:15:36But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did and they found

1:15:40it was really bad for you.

1:15:41We've talked about it a few times, but those ladies, they used to test the

1:15:46x -ray machines with their hands.

1:15:48And no one told them.

1:15:50No one told them that x -rays can give you cancer and fuck you up.

1:15:53And these poor ladies every day when they would show up at the medical office,

1:15:57they would put their hand in the x -ray machine to make sure it worked.

1:16:00And then you see their hands next to each other.

1:16:02It's horrifying. They got horrible lesions on their hands.

1:16:06And it's like it's really creepy.

1:16:07They x -rayed pregnant women until the 70s.

1:16:10Until the 70s, they were x -raying pregnant women.

1:16:13Not with the x -rays of today that are far less radiation exposure.

1:16:16The x -rays of the 70s, which is a lot.

1:16:19They gave the, I believe, the Nobel Prize.

1:16:22I'm pretty sure about this for the lobotomy.

1:16:25Yeah. If I'm not mistaken.

1:16:26I think they did. I think you're right.

1:16:27I think they did. Find that out.

1:16:29Jamie, put that into our sponsor, Perplexity.

1:16:32The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origins of it.

1:16:35And I was like, wait, what?

1:16:37It was a guy who made dynamite.

1:16:40Dynamite. And there was a false story about his death.

1:16:43And in the newspaper, they called him the merchant of death.

1:16:46And he realized it. And he was like, oh, shit.

1:16:49I got to change my PR.

1:16:51I got to change my image.

1:16:52And so he came up with the Nobel Prize.

1:16:54He started awarding this prestigious prize.

1:16:57And then instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite, he became

1:17:02connected with the most prestigious prize in all of medicine and all of government and

1:17:10the peace, the Nobel Peace Prize.

1:17:13It's pretty crazy. It's amazing when you have money, how you can influence the world

1:17:18to think certain things about, in his instance, him, in other certain products.

1:17:23Exactly. Absolutely. But what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that

1:17:28actually deliver the news, which is, you know, that's the crazy one.

1:17:33Like, Callie Neens talked about that.

1:17:34Like, they're advertising not because they want to sell their products with the advertisement that

1:17:40they're putting on the air.

1:17:41They're doing that, too. But they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's

1:17:47going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of investigation into the

1:17:55vaccine injuries. Like, that's not going to happen.

1:17:57You're not going to see a giant CNN piece about COVID -19 vaccine injuries.

1:18:02It's not happening. It's not happening.

1:18:04You're not going to hear much about anything.

1:18:07It has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it.

1:18:10Well, they'll just mention a judgment real quick and then move on, moving on.

1:18:16The Rasmussen poll, I don't know if you remember this one, found that, I believe,

1:18:21one in four, and I think that's right, but I'm not sure, 100%.

1:18:25People said they believed they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine or knew somebody

1:18:30that died of COVID vaccine.

1:18:31When you have that many people with that lived experience, and yet the mainstream media,

1:18:39as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID

1:18:42vaccines the way they did on the Nobel Prize.

1:18:46Wow. Nobel Prize -related lobotomy refers to a 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine

1:18:53awarded to Antonio Agas Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist, for developing prefrontal lobotomy.

1:19:00I believe that continued until the 60s, by the way.

1:19:03Yeah, imagine that. He got that prize in 49.

1:19:05They're like, good job. Meaning the medical profession as it stood in the 60s when

1:19:09the measles vaccine was rolling out.

1:19:11We're still doing this, by the way.

1:19:13Oh, yeah. I think they stopped lobotomies in 60s.

1:19:16Was it 67? He developed something called a leucotomy, which was slightly different than what

1:19:22became known as the lobotomy, which we know as like the ice pick method.

1:19:27What was his? It said also called the leucotomy.

1:19:30So that was this Freeman.

1:19:33That's the guy who was like the doc.

1:19:35I think they called him even Dr.

1:19:36Death or something. For he did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.

1:19:41Unfortunately, today, you don't need a lobotomy, apparently, to have a lobotomy.

1:19:44Just to spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from

1:19:47certain places. It's so bad for people.

1:19:50Seems to be, you can maybe end up in the same place.

1:19:52It's just hard to recommend a certain amount of it.

1:19:55It's like how much Twinkies should you eat in a day.

1:19:58I don't mind if you eat Twinkies.

1:19:59But if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're going to be fucked up, man.

1:20:02And that's how I feel about like social media interactions.

1:20:05But I do think it's an important way to distribute information.

1:20:10It's if you're a – say if you're working for some corporation and you know

1:20:14something fucked up is going on.

1:20:15And you could put it up on Twitter and with details and facts and people

1:20:21could look into it. And you could open up a line of reporters and investigative

1:20:26journalists that are going to find this, expose it.

1:20:29And you could really break a story that is like good for everybody.

1:20:33Having a way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic.

1:20:37Everything else, like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth,

1:20:41you're just rotting your brain out.

1:20:43And we're all guilty of it if you're on it.

1:20:46I mean, during the COVID pandemic, when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but

1:20:52for the existence of social media, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms, right, the

1:21:01information in many respects wouldn't come out if you didn't.

1:21:03have Peter McCullough on, Robert Malone on, and if Fox and some, just that little

1:21:10portion of the, I guess, more traditional media sphere wasn't willing for a time period

1:21:14to have folks on. I mean, let's trust me, when I started doing vaccine related

1:21:19work a decade ago, I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN,

1:21:23would ever have me on.

1:21:24And they had me on numerous times until, you know, vaccines kind of like, all

1:21:29right, let's not touch that again.

1:21:30Was this during, this was during the Biden administration then.

1:21:33And I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between

1:21:37the right and the left, right?

1:21:39It was the right opposing the draconian measures that the left who is in power,

1:21:45and we got to get the right back in power because we're all about freedom.

1:21:48So I think there was a little bit of that going on there, right?

1:21:51For sure, there was some of that going on, as you pointed out, I believe,

1:21:54in the past. When Trump was promoting the vaccine, we're not taking that vaccine.

1:22:00And then the moment Biden was like, we're taking the vaccine.

1:22:02Colin Harris was saying it.

1:22:03Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is?

1:22:06Like, that is so crazy.

1:22:07These people are fake. I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and said, everybody should

1:22:11get every vaccine out there, I'd, you know, see what would happen.

1:22:14I don't know. That's the way.

1:22:16We'd stop saying it. Yeah, if he really got into trans kids, they'd put a

1:22:21ban to it immediately. Yeah, it's weird.

1:22:25It's weird to watch. Weird to watch us so divided and at each other's throats.

1:22:28And I really do think that a giant percentage of the uptick and the craziness

1:22:33is just social media. I don't think people are designed for it.

1:22:37I just thank God Elon bought Twitter because if he didn't, we would not have

1:22:42the kind of access to the actual truth or the real data.

1:22:47It would all be suppressed.

1:22:48You would never find out about it.

1:22:50How would you know about these studies?

1:22:51No one's going to – you're not going to go scouring through journals.

1:22:54And even if you do, what are you going to do?

1:22:55You've got to get on Rumble and talk about it.

1:22:57It's probably the only way you can.

1:22:59And if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on Twitter, they'll get banned.

1:23:03So it's like we were in a real pickle.

1:23:06It was a bad spot.

1:23:08Yeah. And it was just a few years ago.

1:23:10Yeah. Which is nuts. We could have gone a very different direction.

1:23:13Very different. And I'll use an analogy when they – remember the airlines, you know,

1:23:16because CDC required masks on planes.

1:23:18Yeah. When that got struck down by the courts, okay, a number of airlines said,

1:23:25we're going to keep our mask mandate.

1:23:26I don't know if you remember that.

1:23:27You know, they proudly came out.

1:23:28The CO said, we're going to keep it.

1:23:30Half of them said they were going to keep it.

1:23:32The other half immediately lifted the mask mandate on planes.

1:23:35And those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two,

1:23:38I think, or something like that really rapidly because economically, they were losing business.

1:23:42Right. And I think that changed the center of gravity on that issue.

1:23:46I think Elon buying Twitter, X, basically changed the center of gravity on censorship whereby

1:23:54without that, they might have all just kept going even in the worst direction.

1:23:59And they saw they were losing market share to X once he bought it and

1:24:03he didn't have censorship. I think that can form their conduct.

1:24:07Well, it was also – it was indicative of how people actually felt versus what

1:24:12was suppressed. Like when you realize that there's – well, have you ever seen like

1:24:18how people identifying as non -binary and trans dropped off like right after purchase of

1:24:25Twitter? It's because people got a chance to talk about it now and you can

1:24:28criticize and people can put up memes and they can call it a mental illness

1:24:32again. And then all of a sudden everybody was like, hey, what are we supporting?

1:24:35Men with penises in the women's room?

1:24:37Like did we get hypnotized?

1:24:39Like what the fuck happened?

1:24:41And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications talking about the dangers of gender

1:24:49transition for young kids. Wow.

1:24:52Wow. Okay. So what happened?

1:24:54What happened? What happened was Elon bought Twitter and people were out to actually accurately

1:24:59gauge what people are willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being

1:25:04shoved down everybody's throats with censorship and with mainstream media narratives.

1:25:08They just keep piping back and forth pretending everybody agrees with them.

1:25:13That's one piece of it.

1:25:14They are also – by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are

1:25:17getting sued. Right. That's a very good point.

1:25:19All left and right on this.

1:25:20That's a very good point.

1:25:20In fact, you know, we – Especially after that first ruling, right?

1:25:24We have, you know – and I can't talk about it.

1:25:31But it's very, very troubling matters, which includes suicide and hiding it from parents, school

1:25:39districts. I mean it's really troubling stuff.

1:25:42Do you have children? Yeah, I do.

1:25:44I do too. And one of the things you realize if you have children is

1:25:47that they are very malleable and they want to fit in and they are subject

1:25:53to social contagions. And that social contagion can be dressing up goth.

1:25:58It could be like whatever it is.

1:25:59Like they want to fit in and they're experimenting.

1:26:01They're kids. And if you just decide, oh, you're a boy and then you bring

1:26:06that kid to it and you're giving them all this positive attention and you're giving

1:26:09them all this positive feedback and then you go to school.

1:26:11I'm trans now. And everyone says you're brave.

1:26:14Like for awkward kids, that is absolutely enticing.

1:26:19Yeah. And not only that, they do it in clusters.

1:26:21Like Abigail Schreier has written about this, that this is a lot of these girls

1:26:24have autism and a lot of these girls, they're socially awkward and they're very uncomfortable

1:26:29with their body. And they're going through puberty, which kind of freaks them out already,

1:26:32freaks out any girl. Yeah.

1:26:34And then something comes along like this and now you've been taken to a doctor

1:26:39and had your breasts removed and you're 15.

1:26:41That's fucking crazy. And to say anything in opposition to that somehow became you're a

1:26:49bigot or you're a Nazi or you're transphobic.

1:26:53This is crazy talk. Like you're talking about very malleable children doing something.

1:26:58You can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're 15.

1:27:00Why can you get your breasts removed?

1:27:03That's nuts. Unfortunately, it became a very big business.

1:27:07The number of centers in America that perform these surgeries exploded.

1:27:11And so with that explosion, you need clients.

1:27:15Like every business, it needs to feed.

1:27:18right that business model right and so um that is so evil it's so creepy

1:27:25to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money but

1:27:31they've done it with so many other things it's it's not it's not impossible to

1:27:37believe that it's true it's scary a lot of times if you follow the money

1:27:42trail you can see how things develop and where they go it often helps you

1:27:46know puts in perspective and look rare is the person that says i'm evil i'm

1:27:52bad i mean people find a way to justify things they find a way to

1:27:55excuse them and you know find you know the well i'm doing more good than

1:28:00bad justification in their minds or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being

1:28:06a part of a corporation that's doing something hey look i'm just an accountant or

1:28:09hey i'm just an engineer or hey you know i'm doing i'm not i don't

1:28:13want the company to move in this direction however i do own stock so as

1:28:16it goes up especially especially in public traded companies which brings us back to the

1:28:21very beginning of the right which is you know that is what happens in those

1:28:24corporations should that be a thing like if you could redo the if you had

1:28:29a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy would you have the stock

1:28:34market i mean isn't it enough that people just buy things sell things your company's

1:28:40worth money because it makes money isn't that enough why why do we have to

1:28:44complicate it why why do we have a stock market borough talks is the borough

1:28:50market podcast with me julia crouch join us as we sit down with the chefs

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1:29:38i don't know if the stock market itself is the problem i mean stocks the

1:29:41whole idea is just to find a you know a a more a efficient way

1:29:48for me to sell you shares in my company that's all it is but the

1:29:52underlying problem is not the market in my view it's not the existence of the

1:29:56stock market it's the government intervening intervening into the no market forces in a way

1:30:04that do not result in a good outcome oh and and often that is at

1:30:09the behest of industry when government there needs to be some government regulation so that's

1:30:13the problem the problem is corporations have money they can use that money to influence

1:30:17laws influence government i that that is a significant part of the problem because look

1:30:25most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis when you right right so uh

1:30:31they often start as a great idea like people wanting to do good members of

1:30:34our congress wanting to do good but then who's got the time money and inclination

1:30:38to influence that regulatory agency you no well you do have some money but you

1:30:44me who no it's going to be even with even even with even even wealthy

1:30:51folks don't have it they don't they're not going to do it the very it's

1:30:55not even the lobbyist per se it's the very industry they're trying to regulate they

1:31:00have the money time patience inclination to do that to create the revolving door right

1:31:05right think about like this article one of the constitution creates congress right first article

1:31:11and what's its purpose primary purpose is to pass laws right how many laws a

1:31:17year does it pass you think approximately about 200 okay our agencies on the federal

1:31:24government do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law

1:31:27are they pass every year can i guess yeah 2000 it depends on the year

1:31:33but often more so really yes um there's a chart on this i'm sure it

1:31:38can be pulled up but uh it's not but it's something to that effect depends

1:31:42on the year but somewhere between let's say 100 300 to thousands on the other

1:31:46side and who are those folks passing are they part of the article one the

1:31:50constitutional branch is supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives no the unelected bureaucrats

1:31:56sitting there and you've named your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of that

1:32:02passed these regs that are the same force of law and who's really has the

1:32:06again the time and inclination to influence them it's often the very industry so it

1:32:13starts as a good idea but unfortunately it ends up being uh what what the

1:32:18literature calls this is the political science literature came out of harvard and yale and

1:32:23all those places they don't want to talk about it today captive agencies okay that's

1:32:29what they often become cdc fda and very much are to varying degrees depending on

1:32:36what they're doing are very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and

1:32:41you understand it um that's true of many other parts of the government and so

1:32:46well particularly people don't know a lot of people don't know that haven't gone down

1:32:51these rabbit holes that a lot of these people it's a revolving door they leave

1:32:55the fda and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies they make

1:32:59a lot of money yes like julie gerberding who is the head of the cdc

1:33:05in the 90s that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what whose products

1:33:11merck's vaccine products okay and then after her you know she she cleaned all that

1:33:18up left cdc and went to work for who merck making tens of millions of

1:33:25dollars i believe she's made over the time that she's been there so she did

1:33:29good she got rewarded you think if she If she didn't do good, she wouldn't

1:33:33get rewarded? You don't think other people see that in the federal health?

1:33:36Of course they know. They all know.

1:33:37Of course. So it's the golden parachute, and everybody strives for it.

1:33:40If you can get that post, you can get the top of the food chain

1:33:45over at the CDC. Guys, see you in about five years.

1:33:48Then in five years, you're thinking about your Lamborghini, you got a yacht, and your

1:33:52future. It's just, it's kooky.

1:33:56Yeah, I mean - It's kooky that it's legal.

1:33:57Look, I don't know if it's as nefarious as that in the minds of people

1:34:01in public health. Let's put it that way, since we're talking about public health officials.

1:34:05But I think that it has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the

1:34:12fact that they're human. It will influence them.

1:34:16I don't think it's - There's also a precedent.

1:34:18There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them, so it's something they

1:34:21look forward to. If you get this job, you will likely get a job like

1:34:26this afterwards. A bunch of people have, and so you think about that while you're

1:34:30trying to get that job.

1:34:31It's part of the motivation.

1:34:32It's part of the motivation as financial reward.

1:34:34Absolutely. Well, there was a - It has to be.

1:34:35There's a Pfizer executive who was serendipitously recorded specifically saying that.

1:34:42Oh. It's in my, I have the exchange in my book.

1:34:45It's something to the effect of, well, you know, those who are working at the

1:34:48FDA, you know, or, you know, they're eventually going to, you know, come work for

1:34:53industry, so they don't want to, you know, hurt industry too much.

1:34:57And the person asking the question says, well, you think that's bad?

1:35:01He goes, yeah, it's bad for America, you know, but not bad for the companies.

1:35:05That's the problem. That's exactly right.

1:35:07Well, this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholders, which brings me

1:35:10back to the whole stock market thing.

1:35:12I know this is a kooky thought, but I mean, if we never had the

1:35:15stock market in the first place and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders

1:35:19to consistently make more money every quarter.

1:35:21Yeah. If people could just like accept the fact that you own this business, this

1:35:25person, you make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great.

1:35:28Like why, why have all these people making money, just moving stocks around, insane amounts

1:35:35of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks.

1:35:38And there's, there's people that are like in public office that say things that aren't

1:35:44necessarily true, that influence the market.

1:35:47And then it turns out they were totally wrong.

1:35:48And then you find out that they bet on it and they made a bunch

1:35:51of money in the stock market.

1:35:52This is crazy. This is crazy.

1:35:54And it's all true. And it's all, it's all legal, which is so fucking bizarre

1:35:58that in a time where we are completely aware that all this stuff is taking

1:36:06place. All right. Can I put that into three different buckets?

1:36:09I'm going to put it in three different buckets.

1:36:10There's the bucket of making products.

1:36:12Right. There are companies that make products.

1:36:13There are companies that provide services, including financial services that can be useful.

1:36:16Like you need a mortgage if you can buy a house, you can't afford it.

1:36:19So mortgage products are a service that are brought from the financial industry.

1:36:22And then there's, I think what you're talking about, which is the part of our

1:36:26economy that is finance. It's just moving money.

1:36:30It's just moving numbers where they've got, you know, high speed computers that are trying

1:36:34in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy, to basically triage

1:36:39and make money based on, that adds no value to our economy.

1:36:44You know, products and services add value.

1:36:47And to our, everything you see around that we're sitting in right now was made

1:36:51by a company, right? And so, and I'm not aware of a system that has

1:37:01been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than

1:37:08the free market system with some regulation.

1:37:11Okay. I haven't, I'm not aware of one.

1:37:13Socialism doesn't do it. We've seen that in action.

1:37:15Right. Communism does not do it.

1:37:16We've seen that in action.

1:37:17We need to just do it right.

1:37:18Dictators, neither, but so. Kidding.

1:37:20So. Clearly. So, so I wouldn't throw out the whole system is what I'm saying.

1:37:25What I'm saying is that.

1:37:26I'm not saying that. Yeah, I'm saying that, that, that part of it's good.

1:37:28Now, when you break the alignment of market, of, of economic self -interest of the

1:37:36companies, the market interest to whatever it is, protect consumers, that's when you're a problem.

1:37:42And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea from

1:37:47a lot of government regulations.

1:37:48Well, the government, the company is not on its own going to do what's right

1:37:56in this instance. So we need government to do it.

1:37:59And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be

1:38:04a good system. You're right.

1:38:06Right. But the system often breaks when they step in, when they're not needed.

1:38:11And sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect, when they're really just

1:38:16protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often.

1:38:21Is the benefit of the stock market, and I'm, this is again, nonsense, right?

1:38:26I'm not an economist, clearly.

1:38:27But if we had never invented it, if human beings had never come up with

1:38:31this idea, if instead we just had a free market, what has the stock market,

1:38:38what has publicly traded companies, what has the ability to own stock companies and hedge

1:38:42funds and all that stuff, what has that done for innovation and for progress and

1:38:48for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged more activity

1:38:55in the economy and we're further ahead than we would have been if no one

1:38:58had invented it? Because it seems like, at the very least, it's a weird opening

1:39:04for people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts

1:39:11of wealth. So that seems like you've got a hole in your pipe.

1:39:14Like, why are people that aren't even involved, why do they get to make all

1:39:18the money on this? Like, what is going on here?

1:39:20You're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to

1:39:24achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market capitalist society that doesn't

1:39:29have a stock market, that just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody

1:39:34doing the stuff they do.

1:39:34It's like, is it a necessity is what I'm asking.

1:39:40Well, outside of my air expertise, but...

1:39:43Definitely outside of mine. I mean, I'll give you my musing.

1:39:47Yes, please. So this is just my off -the -cuff musings, and that's something I

1:39:50actually really want to think about more.

1:39:52So when I think about companies going public, it certainly appears to help drive capital

1:40:02to those companies because venture capital funds, a lot of times they're exit strategy.

1:40:11So I'm willing to give you all this.

1:40:14I'm a venture capital. I'm willing to give you all this money to start this

1:40:19company because I know my goal is three to five years from now, it can

1:40:25go public and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my

1:40:30money. That's the exit strategy for that investment.

1:40:34Now, if there was no efficient market to do that, meaning you couldn't just have

1:40:41a publicly traded market where it's just easy to have this public offering, what would

1:40:48that do to venture capital funds?

1:40:51Well, I mean, would they still invest as much?

1:40:54They might, and instead they might just focus on hard money returns.

1:40:57They want companies that really just make money, you know, cash on cash versus this

1:41:05immediate bubble of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid,

1:41:11the ownership. Right. Market caps.

1:41:14I don't know if that answers your question, but that's like, well, I don't think

1:41:17it does because, you know, your question was a good one.

1:41:20It's far more sophisticated than what I answered because you're saying, what does it contribute

1:41:26to society? Right. I don't think it contributes anything.

1:41:30It tributes. I just answered it so narrowly and said, well, it might add some,

1:41:34it might entice venture capitalists.

1:41:35Though I don't know if, I don't even know if what I just said is

1:41:38entirely, like, they might still do it anyway because they'll just might do the best

1:41:41thing. Now, what does it add to society?

1:41:43I mean, it'd be harder to have like a retirement account in the way you

1:41:48have right now to own stock, right?

1:41:51That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca

1:41:54-Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by, you know, certain families

1:42:01or would you rather them be owned by the public?

1:42:04I think you should be allowed to keep your company in your family if you

1:42:08own it. Well, you should.

1:42:10Well, you certainly can look at New York Times.

1:42:13The New York Times, the family kept controlling, if I, in my understanding, again, we're

1:42:18outside of my normal area of expertise, but the family, in my understanding, has the

1:42:22controlling of votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well in New York

1:42:26Times. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken.

1:42:29I know people that have taken their company public and regretted it.

1:42:32Like, it's too much shit.

1:42:34You deal with too much nonsense afterwards.

1:42:36And then they're like, it wasn't worth it.

1:42:38Just for the hassle and the quality of life, I would have never done it

1:42:42if I had known this.

1:42:43I guess it depends what they wanted.

1:42:44Yeah, I guess it depends what they wanted, but the question is, like, if a

1:42:49bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just, like, siphoning money by

1:42:53moving money around all over the place, like, isn't that leaky money?

1:42:56Like, if you don't really contribute anything, you don't provide any value, and yet you're

1:43:00extracting extreme wealth, don't you have a leak in the pipe?

1:43:03It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and

1:43:08selling of goods and services, that would be a much more, like, honest society.

1:43:12But would it have the same amount of innovation and would it have the same

1:43:20amount of productivity? Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital

1:43:27but also encouraged so it, like, stimulates everything?

1:43:31So, like, having these vampires sucking on the pipe, like, ultimately it does move numbers

1:43:37around and it gets more stuff out there, which also encourages innovation.

1:43:42I don't know. I mean, I think that there's a gray area between the second

1:43:50and third bucket. So, like, products and services, maybe we'll make that one bucket because

1:43:54those can have value to society, many of them.

1:43:57And then at the extreme, there's, like, just, like, triage nonsense that happens, you know.

1:44:03So, I put my supercomputer as close as possible to, you know, the stock exchange

1:44:10and so I can, like, make money on fractions of a fraction.

1:44:13Yeah, it's crazy. And then there's something – then there's, like, that gray zone in

1:44:18between where there's, you know, mortgages good, okay?

1:44:23Right. Help the American family achieve their dream of owning a home.

1:44:28Now, mortgage -backed securities, ooh, maybe not so good.

1:44:32Mortgage -backed securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches, getting worse.

1:44:37Going down that road, like, there's a degree where you're getting further and further away

1:44:41from the very point of that financial instrument that had goods.

1:44:45So, I think that there is a point at which, yeah, no good.

1:44:51But I think we – it's hard to talk in generalities in my mind.

1:44:54Like, if you have a specific example, let's go down that road.

1:44:57Well, Bernie Madoff is the best example.

1:44:59Right? Obviously, everybody had to know something was – there was some shenanigans taking place

1:45:05because the returns were too crazy.

1:45:06But look out how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so

1:45:11successful. Just – My old office in Manhattan when I used to work at Latham

1:45:16& Watkins was, I think, three floors above Bernie's office in the Lipstick Building.

1:45:20It was on the 23rd.

1:45:21I think it was on the 24th.

1:45:22Nothing to do with him.

1:45:23Anyways. Zero. Okay, but Bernie – Bernie just straight up – Stole.

1:45:30Just stole. I mean, that's not – that's not even a thing.

1:45:33Come on. He just – No, no, no.

1:45:34You're right. He just made – he just stole money and gave out, like, fake

1:45:39returns as far as I know.

1:45:41Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had people thinking that they were making all this money and

1:45:45there was something there. Yeah, he just – it was a pyramid scheme, basically.

1:45:47100%. That was eventually going to fail.

1:45:49I mean, it only could go on for so long.

1:45:51Well, I think it fucked up because of the 2008 crisis, right?

1:45:55They think he could have kept it going if there wasn't the crash.

1:45:58Wasn't that what did him in?

1:45:59There's always going to be a dip.

1:46:00So it was only – So it was only a matter of – At our

1:46:02time, I mean, he was going to get...

1:46:03That was a big one, though, and people wanted their money back, and he was

1:46:05like, yikes. Just, I mean, that's an incredible, it's an incredible scheme.

1:46:11It's amazing that somebody could even pull that off, frankly.

1:46:14It is crazy, and it is incredible, but it just shows you that this is

1:46:17a weird system that you can pretend to be moving money around, and you don't

1:46:21have any products. But it corrected.

1:46:23It did. It's a good point, because he did go to jail.

1:46:26He corrected, he went to jail, and man, did he become the post -trial of,

1:46:29like, post -trial fraud, don't do that.

1:46:31Don't do that. He became, don't do that, yeah.

1:46:34It's just, it's probably a stupid question, because I don't know anything about economics, but

1:46:39I was just thinking that, like, couldn't we have the same world and not have

1:46:45that? Wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial?

1:46:48But it would have to have happened from the beginning.

1:46:51It would have to be, like, there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning.

1:46:55All right, let's think of a company you like.

1:46:58Coca -Cola. You like Coca -Cola?

1:47:00I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain

1:47:02fog. All right. I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame

1:47:08hangover. Okay, I'll think of another one.

1:47:11I don't know. Chevy. Chevy.

1:47:13Okay, Chevy. So, I don't know.

1:47:17Without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to

1:47:23what Chevy became, or at least in the speed at which it did, that then

1:47:28revolutionized automotive and other industries.

1:47:31Probably not. Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not.

1:47:33Maybe not. But you wonder, like, if people were motivated and people were ambitious, and

1:47:38we always have been, you know, like, if that wasn't a part of our economy,

1:47:42I wonder. I bet it has a pretty big impact when you put it that

1:47:46way. You think about something as big as Chevy, you know.

1:47:51But it's just the motivation of money is always going to be there.

1:47:57And if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology,

1:48:03you've been captured. And this is why I think what you're talking about all the

1:48:09time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow.

1:48:13Because it makes you have, you're forced to reformulate your entire worldview.

1:48:17If you've been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy

1:48:24and, you know, who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is

1:48:28and what the studies really are, when you realize you've been duped that hard, it's

1:48:32a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

1:48:35Absolutely. But I will say this.

1:48:38You don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay?

1:48:40Because that happens to a lot of people with vaccines.

1:48:42I've seen. And not the majority, not most, but it happens to some where it's

1:48:47like, oh my goodness, if the government's lying or not telling me the truth about

1:48:52these products, then what can I believe?

1:48:56And I, and, you know, people, some folks can go down some, some different alleys.

1:49:01And I would say that I would really, truly, I've not seen anything like vaccines.

1:49:07Vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity.

1:49:10It's what I call original sin in my book.

1:49:12There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of that operates in this

1:49:18kind of landscape. Like I said, every other product, the market force will, to varying

1:49:25degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self -interest.

1:49:30They broke that with vaccines.

1:49:32So we've gone from three shots following the, in 1986, one before the first year

1:49:38of age, at the beginning of 2000, 2025, you know how many shots it was

1:49:42that a baby got on her before their first birthday?

1:49:45Take a guess. 72. No, no, no.

1:49:47That's, that's, that's our whole childhood.

1:49:48Twenty -nine. Twenty -nine by the first birthday?

1:49:51Yes. On or before the first birthday.

1:49:52They went from three to 29 shots, including in utero.

1:49:56Now, with the remission changes, it's down to 19.

1:49:59And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the

1:50:02first six months of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical

1:50:06stages of neurological, immunological development, right?

1:50:11Synapse. Think how small a baby is, okay?

1:50:14And so they're really susceptible to various effects.

1:50:18Also, babies can't express what, what's, what's going wrong with them, okay?

1:50:22So now, in the normal course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product.

1:50:28You've gone from three of them in 1986, by the first year.

1:50:33You're up to 25, 29, beginning of 2025.

1:50:37Now you're at 19 still.

1:50:38And during that period, you've gone from under 10 % of kids had a chronic

1:50:42health issue in the early 1980s, according to the data.

1:50:45You now have over 40%.

1:50:47Some data show over 50 % of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times

1:50:51the rate, okay? And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded?

1:50:55To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body,

1:51:01okay? Including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines.

1:51:05But when you look at those chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them

1:51:10have an etiology relating to some form of immune system dysregulation.

1:51:16Look at asthma. Look at atopic issues.

1:51:18Look at tics. Look at ADHD.

1:51:21Nobody thinks about it this way.

1:51:22But if you look at the public literature, there's immune markers that have gone awry

1:51:27in kids with ADHD, okay?

1:51:29So you look at that.

1:51:31Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable would look

1:51:36at that, and then they would start looking at the data.

1:51:38And I'll show you what some of the data shows.

1:51:41We talked about the Amish earlier, for example, okay?

1:51:44The Amish that I represent in New York, there's three schools.

1:51:49The New York Health Department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are.

1:51:53It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon their real religious beliefs and

1:51:59to give their kids these vaccines.

1:52:00Otherwise, they were going to impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools.

1:52:04Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know

1:52:09what I mean? On Amish land, they don't take tax money.

1:52:12They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money taught by Amish teachers.

1:52:17and so we amongst those families of those three schools there was like a hundred

1:52:22and sixty or something kids and what we did is we we did a survey

1:52:27we asked them what health conditions do those kids have those hundred and sixty kids

1:52:31many of them already older too so you would know their health outcomes and this

1:52:36is all in our court papers all in a federal docket anybody can go and

1:52:39read it for themselves okay amongst those children you would expect to have because like

1:52:44one in ten kids approximately have asthma you would expect to have like nine cases

1:52:48of asthma you'd expect to have six cases this five they have none zero of

1:52:55the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in america today and the approximately ten or so

1:53:00studies that have been done and i'm bringing this back to my legal point the

1:53:05approximately ten or so studies that have done that compare kids with no exposure meaning

1:53:09zero vaccines to kids that have had one or more vaccines show the same outcome

1:53:14kids with zero vaccines almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today

1:53:20in america kids with one or more vaccines multiple rates of the chronic health issues

1:53:25facing kids today now that data all exists i put those studies in my book

1:53:31anybody could read them i even put the amish information my book it's all cited

1:53:34you can go look at it yourself if you're out there some of them are

1:53:36even a pub in the market could have corrected for that if you could hold

1:53:40those pharma companies accountable but you can't um is it correct that the only instances

1:53:47of autism they found in amish kids were adopted kids um there are data and

1:53:55some reports that reflect that but if we so there are that but those are

1:54:03more news reports those are not somebody will criticize you by the way you're gonna

1:54:07get criticism and say well that's not a peer -reviewed study well i had a

1:54:09follow -up question to maybe clarify yeah well and so uh we can say we

1:54:16can go move on to what does the peer -reviewed literature show if you want

1:54:19but the follow -up question would be yeah are they even being diagnosed so if

1:54:23they're getting amish care and amish teachers and amish is it possible that there are

1:54:29some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed like this is the

1:54:34criticism yes people say like this is when you hear some mainstream suit talking on

1:54:39television well there was always someone odd when we were kids you know there's no

1:54:43they just the diagnosis is different today that's why it's one in 12 boys in

1:54:48california they're over diagnosing and i'm like no no i i have friends that have

1:54:52i have multiple friends that have non -verbal children that i never had that when

1:54:57i was a kid that was not normal that was not a common thing it

1:55:00was very very very rare the notion that uh autism is just better diagnosed and

1:55:07that's the only reason for the increase is um i don't know a better word

1:55:12for them to say nonsense okay um uh even if you look at the because

1:55:17they've changed the dsm -5 which is what we're up to the diagnostic manual that

1:55:21is the uh the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism it has

1:55:28changed over time but when you even just look at severe autism just severe autism

1:55:33which california has very good data on from the 70s and onward into today it's

1:55:39exploded okay so the notion that we just have better diagnosis is is not a

1:55:44serious point but putting that aside the amish do go to doctors do they go

1:55:49to amish doctors no okay they go to regular doctors the amish the amish for

1:55:53example could even go in a car they just can't drive a car well so

1:55:57they can get uber there's different i should be i should be somebody orders it

1:56:00i should be clearer about that just like every religion there are different you know

1:56:06okay communities and so there's like old old line amish and then there's old line

1:56:11amish and so god you know and christianity and islam and juda and all different

1:56:18you know there's different degrees of black hat jews and there's no so forth right

1:56:21so um um in many respects um uh they do still go but you know

1:56:28as um i was told by one of the main folks who i interact with

1:56:32there and i've been up there and i've slept there and i've interacted with them

1:56:36he told me he said yeah you know um there are a few that mistake

1:56:40got some vaccines and he goes one of those kids they just don't act right

1:56:43he said it to me but we don't see that with our other kids and

1:56:46i'll tell you this about the amish community they don't have phones not not not

1:56:52not the not uh you know smartphones uh they have old school phones some of

1:56:57them they don't have tvs when they're with their kids they're with their kids when

1:57:03they're there at the end of the day they really are so much more in

1:57:07tune when i spend time with them and when i went up there i mean

1:57:10it's incredible you know we have lost it's a hard thing to experience maybe for

1:57:16somebody who keeps like maybe the closest thing i think of is like those who

1:57:20observe the sabbath biblically you know so they're just they're just totally locked in they

1:57:24lock in with their families for a day or things like that and so they're

1:57:28very in tune with their kids they know if those kids have health issues and

1:57:31those kids don't have those issues but forget the amish go to the rest of

1:57:36the kids in the other studies that are not amish studies the 10 other studies

1:57:40that i just told you about one is three pediatric practices that have vaccinated unvaccinated

1:57:44kids so there there are a whole line of studies of nothing to do with

1:57:48the amish community but if you do want to focus on autism okay which is

1:57:53just one potential issue from vaccines by the way um what you find in the

1:58:02peer -reviewed literature is that 40 to 70 percent of parents who have a child

1:58:06with autism report still report that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism okay 47

1:58:14that's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them

1:58:19and convince them that it's not all that vaccines don't cause autism no matter apparently

1:58:24no matter how much you beat these families they're just not going to change their

1:58:29lived experience experience experience And what vaccines do they point to?

1:58:33They often, they point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

1:58:37When you ask them, what vaccines do you think cause your child's autism?

1:58:40They'll say the vaccines given in the first six months of life.

1:58:42And then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given no earlier than one

1:58:46year of age. Okay. And so on behalf of ICANN, which is the Informed Christian

1:58:52Act, a nonprofit that our law firm represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act

1:58:58request, FOIA request, to the CDC.

1:59:01And we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism.

1:59:05Great. Please give us the studies that show that hep B vaccine, given three times

1:59:11in the first six months of life, do not cause autism.

1:59:14Please give us the studies that show that DTaP vaccine, given three times in the

1:59:18first six months of life, do not cause autism.

1:59:20Same thing for IPV vaccine, for PCV vaccine, and for Hib vaccine.

1:59:29Okay. Each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six

1:59:33months of life. 15 injections.

1:59:36Okay. Okay. You say vaccines don't cause autism.

1:59:41These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism.

1:59:46Provide us the studies. They never gave us the studies.

1:59:50I sued them in federal court.

1:59:51I didn't go to Texas.

1:59:52I sued them in Southern District of New York.

1:59:54Okay. Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit.

1:59:57Okay. Days before the hearing, I get a list of 20 studies finally from, also

2:00:05from the DOJ. Cause they represent the CDC.

2:00:08Okay. Maybe they think I don't read.

2:00:11So I looked at the 20 studies.

2:00:13I've read them. 19 of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in

2:00:19the first six months of life.

2:00:20They were all either MMR studies or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those

2:00:25vaccines. One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all

2:00:33the literature on whether DTaP vaccine does or does not cause autism.

2:00:37Because the CDC and HRSA, which is the agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury

2:00:43claims, asked the IOM to look at whether DTaP causes autism because it remained one

2:00:48of the most commonly claimed injuries still, according to them.

2:00:52Okay. And the Institute of Medicine came back and said, we can only find one

2:00:56study on DTaP and autism.

2:00:58And in fact, it showed an association between DTaP vaccine and autism.

2:01:03But the IOM threw it out because they said there's no unvaccinated control in it.

2:01:07So they threw out the studies based on VAERS data, if you know what that

2:01:09is. So I called up the DOJ attorney.

2:01:13This is days before the hearing.

2:01:15And I said, I got the list of 20 studies.

2:01:21I said, are you sure that your client, the CDC, wants to settle this case

2:01:27basically on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim that

2:01:32vaccines don't cause autism? The vaccines in the first six months of life do not

2:01:36cause autism. Because that's what the lawsuit was about, that FOIA request.

2:01:40He went, he called me back, and he said, yeah, they want to settle it.

2:01:42But I said, all right, give him, I gave him another chance.

2:01:46Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and I can

2:01:51my client. The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC.

2:01:54I signed it on behalf of my client.

2:01:56And a federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered as an order

2:01:58of the court in 2019, I believe it was.

2:02:02And there it was. I mean, I had done years and years of work fighting

2:02:06with them to try and figure out, show me the vaccines don't cause autism.

2:02:09This was the crescendo. This was the end.

2:02:11I mean, when their back was to the wall, they had, they had nothing.

2:02:16There are no studies. They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in

2:02:22the first six months of life do not cause autism.

2:02:24And here's the thing they left out.

2:02:27There is one study out there regarding hep B vaccines and autism.

2:02:31It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brook.

2:02:33It's in the peer -reviewed literature.

2:02:34And it showed that kids that got hep B vaccine versus those that did in

2:02:38the first month of life had three times the rate of autism.

2:02:41Statistically significant. Gallagher, Goodman, University of Stony Brook.

2:02:44It's on PubMed. That is the only study of hep B vaccine and autism you

2:02:48will find in peer -reviewed literature.

2:02:49If you're going to do it based on the science, on the published literature, that's

2:02:53the only one out there.

2:02:54That DTaP vaccine study is the only one out there for DTaP given in the

2:02:57first six months of life.

2:02:58So when this narrative, which you hear all the time on these panels, on these

2:03:03new shows, vaccines do not cause autism.

2:03:07That has been thoroughly debunked.

2:03:10Where's that come from? Vaccines, amen.

2:03:14That's why I call my book, Vaccines, Amen.

2:03:16Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheer?

2:03:19But this is what I'm talking about.

2:03:20This is why I wrote the book.

2:03:22I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated 100, 200 lawsuits

2:03:29against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including

2:03:35Dr. Stanley Plach, and you go down the list, and chasing them when they're in

2:03:41a deposition, when they're back as against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit,

2:03:46and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put

2:03:50up or shut up. What I have found is that the claims they make about

2:03:53vaccines versus the reality are completely different.

2:03:58And it is disjarring. When I came into this, I would, had you told me,

2:04:04yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism versus, I'd be

2:04:08like, you're crazy. Get out of here.

2:04:10They tell you it's thoroughly debunked, thoroughly studied, the most studied thing ever.

2:04:15They have a mountain of science.

2:04:16Joe, there's a mountain of studies.

2:04:17You know how big it is?

2:04:18It's so big. And you know what's on top of that mountain?

2:04:21Another mountain of studies. You know how?

2:04:22Another mountain. There's so many studies.

2:04:24They're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism.

2:04:28But then when you demand it, not the bull crap that they say on TV,

2:04:33but you actually demand it.

2:04:35That's the result. And that, you could pull it up on the internet, by the

2:04:38way, that court stipulation. It's right there.

2:04:43You could also hear me depose Dr.

2:04:45Stan. Plock and the world's leading vaccinologist, where I said to him, I said, doctor,

2:04:49you know, and you have this clips on the internet.

2:04:51I said, I said, there's no studies that support the DTaP does not cause autism,

2:04:56right? And he's, and at first he said, well, I said, well, what do you

2:04:59think the IOM concluded? He goes, well, I would assume they said it doesn't.

2:05:02I showed it to him.

2:05:03He goes, oh, it's the world's leading vaccinologist.

2:05:05He didn't even know this.

2:05:06He goes, oh, okay. There are no studies.

2:05:08Okay. He goes, so I said, shouldn't you wait until you do?

2:05:11Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTaP doesn't cause autism

2:05:15to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?

2:05:19You know what he said to me?

2:05:20No, no, I don't wait.

2:05:23I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child.

2:05:26He said, I said, so for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines

2:05:30don't cause autism, even though you don't have the data to support it.

2:05:33And he said, absolutely. You can play that clip if you want.

2:05:36It's on the internet. And then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism.

2:05:41It was about it, Dr.

2:05:43Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world,

2:05:48one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plotkin's

2:05:52Vaccines. I deposed her about vaccines and autism.

2:05:55And I said, do you have a study that shows hep B vaccine doesn't cause

2:05:58autism? This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about.

2:06:02She didn't have any for hep B, for the ones I just took the first

2:06:07six months of life. So yes, they say on TV, it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm

2:06:12telling you that is a belief that is not science.

2:06:17That is not fact. It is not based on data.

2:06:20It is based on pure belief.

2:06:22And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord.

2:06:27I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school

2:06:32in some archdioceses, even in some other Christian schools, far less.

2:06:37Most archdioceses won't if the kid won't get vaccine.

2:06:40So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by

2:06:44the way. What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done.

2:06:50But I just want to, I just got to be clear because anybody hearing this

2:06:54might think that that just sounds crazy.

2:06:56But I implore anybody who's heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself,

2:07:01look at it yourself, watch the depositions, go to PEP med, see for yourself.

2:07:07Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI because I've done this fun

2:07:10job with them. I'm like, do you have B vaccines cause autism?

2:07:14It's been thoroughly researched and there's no studies.

2:07:16I just go, okay, great.

2:07:17So how do you, and I say to AI, I go, how do you reach

2:07:20a scientific conclusion? Well, you use peer reviewed studies.

2:07:22I go, wonderful. So to conclude that hep B vaccine does not cause autism, you

2:07:25need peer reviewed studies. That is correct.

2:07:27Wonderful. Now please play in a list.

2:07:29These studies that show hep B vaccine does cause autism.

2:07:37Give me three studies. I've had, I've had chat GPT makeup studies, literally hep B

2:07:43vaccine does not cause, and I'm like, that doesn't exist.

2:07:46Give me the PubMed number.

2:07:47You are correct. I aim to provide a valid information, but in this instance, I

2:07:51fell short, literally made up a, I'm not joking, made up a study.

2:07:55I've had it. I fell short.

2:07:56I lied to you. I've done this for fun with friends.

2:07:59And so I'm like, watch this, watch this.

2:08:01And finally, I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and

2:08:04Goodman study. That is the only study.

2:08:06I will get it to admit.

2:08:07It takes about often 45 minutes to an hour.

2:08:10Really? Yeah. It takes a while, but it will eventually admit it.

2:08:13And they all do it.

2:08:14Grok does it too, by the way.

2:08:15Grok's better, by the way, better, but it's bad too.

2:08:19And they will, they will say, you know, on all of these questions, they will

2:08:23make stuff up. And unless you know, like I know the universe of studies, I

2:08:28know it's Can I ask you this?

2:08:29Do you think that these large language models are programmed with certain truths that they

2:08:36can't fight against? Or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit

2:08:41on the internet and so many bullshit narratives on the internet from trusted sources that'll

2:08:46tell you that vaccines don't cause autism?

2:08:48Like there's a ton of, you know, major newspapers, major magazines.

2:08:53There's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked.

2:08:57And then they'll quote doctors and scientists that don't list any specific studies, but they'll

2:09:02say, we've done exhaustive studies.

2:09:03They've been thoroughly debunked. They'll say that and then they'll print that.

2:09:07And so is the, is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that

2:09:12it like looks through all the noise and this is like 89 % say vaccines

2:09:17do not cause autism. Therefore it must be true.

2:09:21Or is it programmed to say, Hey, this is what you say.

2:09:25Vaccines don't cause autism. You must hold me in very high regard.

2:09:29You've, you've held me out as an, you've held me to incredibly complex economic questions

2:09:33and now language, language model questions.

2:09:36I appreciate the compliment so far on that score.

2:09:39With that said, um, um, I mean, I, I, I don't know the answer, but

2:09:46I will speculate cause I don't know the answer that, uh, I, I'm going to

2:09:50guess, I'm guess, I'm really guessing, uh, um, that it might be a mix of

2:09:55some programming because Google, for example, I, you know, if you go and you search

2:10:06for Aaron series, sub stack, you get Paul off at sub stack.

2:10:12Why? How in the world do you get Paul off at sub stack when you

2:10:17search for mine? And mine's like, it's not even like on the first page.

2:10:22I don't think it's on the second.

2:10:23Now I, I, maybe they fixed that.

2:10:25I don't know. So some of that is that using Google that's using Google.

2:10:30Let's look right now. Last time I've done it.

2:10:32Let's go. Let's do it right now.

2:10:34Let's do it. Cause have you seen Robert Epstein's work?

2:10:37Um, Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times, unfortunate last name.

2:10:41Uh, but he has nothing to do with that.

2:10:42He is a data scientist and well, I don't know what his original background is,

2:10:46but what he does is he is a very vocal about how they're using these

2:10:53coordinated. It's very curated search results.

2:10:57And through that, especially during, uh, uh, election times, they can take a lot of

2:11:02people that are undecided voters and swing them a very noticeable number.

2:11:07Like, I forget what the number was, but it's a large percentage, 10%, 20%, something

2:11:10like that. So if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton, for instance, during that

2:11:15first election, you would get all these positive articles.

2:11:18If you Google Trump, you would get all these negative articles.

2:11:21And if you asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely

2:11:26contrary to that, so you'd look at that first.

2:11:28And I think that's you and pull off it.

2:11:30It could be. So let's find out.

2:11:31Maybe it's fixed at this point.

2:11:33How do you want me to word this?

2:11:35Aaron, Siri, Substack. Yeah, just do Aaron, Siri, Substack, and just do that on Google.

2:11:39Just do that on Google, and then let's see what the results are.

2:11:41But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that there might be some of that.

2:11:45Again, I'm on speculation territory.

2:11:46And then separately, So it goes right away to you.

2:11:49It goes right away to me this time.

2:11:51You know what it is?

2:11:52They got Jamie's fucking data, and they know from your metadata.

2:11:56Literally, if you ask a question in a word way, it might come up differently.

2:12:00It's like, what? No, that's what I did.

2:12:03Try Aaron's Siri, Injecting Freedom, Substack.

2:12:06See what happens. That could be the way we search for it.

2:12:11See, that shows up differently.

2:12:13Oh, well. See, I'm telling you, when you add words, it kind of really fucks

2:12:17up all Google searches. Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offit in there.

2:12:20I don't see Paul Offit in there.

2:12:21Have you talked about this publicly before?

2:12:23No, never. Oh, too bad.

2:12:25No, I just did. I just, this happened.

2:12:27This was actually literally just a few days ago.

2:12:30Well, I think one of the things that Robert Epstein, because he's been on my

2:12:34podcast, been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these curated

2:12:38search engines and how it's essentially election rigging.

2:12:42Like, you're manipulating a statistically significant number of people to one side or the other,

2:12:46and you can do it by curating search engines.

2:12:48Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory might be less

2:12:55of that, right? Because look, there it is.

2:12:57It's happenstance. That's why I said, I have no idea.

2:13:00I'm speculating, but it could be pre -read.

2:13:02It could not. It could be also your own algorithm, because maybe you were searching

2:13:08for Paul Offit. Maybe you had Googled Paul Offit's full of shit just before that.

2:13:13I don't need to Google that.

2:13:16That's not, I don't need to.

2:13:17I've had flow when they've added this, but they've definitely added on the screen what

2:13:21they call personalization for these results.

2:13:24Uh -huh. Results are personalized.

2:13:26Try without personalization. So that could have something to do with that.

2:13:29Interesting. Well, let's try it without personalization.

2:13:31Let's see if it changes.

2:13:32Well, I'm already done a different route.

2:13:34Oh, you already put Paul Offit in there?

2:13:36Yeah, I already started searching for that.

2:13:37Okay. So if you do without personalization, it doesn't delete the prior one?

2:13:40Interesting. Personalized. It knows you're a right winger.

2:13:43Well, they started using AI a long time ago.

2:13:45It knows you're a radical.

2:13:46But I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the, who's got, again, it

2:13:54comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and

2:13:58to maybe put these stuff out there that it's going to most likely read from.

2:14:02I mean, when you do AI, you can get that, I see that like crazy

2:14:05scroll of all the things it's looking at, right?

2:14:07Right. So if I've got, if I am a pharma company and I've got a

2:14:11multi -billion dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth, you

2:14:16know, I'm going to deploy that in the way that's probably the most effective.

2:14:20One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would

2:14:25influence the results on AI.

2:14:27Potentially. Yeah, I would do, especially if there's no regulations.

2:14:31That's the weird thing about curating search engines.

2:14:34If it's like your search engine, you can kind of do whatever you want, especially

2:14:38if your company, like, wasn't it like one of the major tech companies after Donald

2:14:44Trump won in 2016 that had a meeting, they were like, we can't let this

2:14:47happen again. Was that Facebook or Google?

2:14:50Do you remember, Jamie? It was like very famous that people were like, what are

2:14:53you talking about? You, what?

2:14:56How can you say that?

2:14:57How could you even say that?

2:14:58Even if you, you're right.

2:15:00Like the idea that you can somehow or other stop someone from being elected if

2:15:05the public wants that person to be elected because you disagree with it is kind

2:15:10of a crazy thing to say out loud.

2:15:12Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question.

2:15:15So when we found that thing with Paul Offit, we found the thing with Paul

2:15:19Offit a few days ago, my social media manager, my, and my, I've got a,

2:15:23you know, got a lot of folks in my law firm.

2:15:25Um, and we have somebody who does like Google AdWords stuff and, and, and, and

2:15:28SEO stuff. And then we have another guy who does the, the web related stuff.

2:15:33Um, I know they did some things and maybe with my little measly budget, it

2:15:37had that effect. And so Matt, so if that would go to my second point

2:15:42that with enough dollar and, and who cares about my, I mean, I don't think

2:15:46pharma cares about myself. Trust me, they're not scared of myself.

2:15:48Well, I don't know about that because even if you don't have a ton of

2:15:53subscribers, it's still out there and all it takes is one podcast appearance like this

2:16:00one and people go there and then all it takes is one investigative reporter to

2:16:05talk about it, to get a, it's a weird time for stuff like that.

2:16:10Well, let's see if two weeks from now it goes back.

2:16:12Yeah. They'll, they'll never put it back.

2:16:14They'll never put it back.

2:16:15But if you guys did do something about it, that does make sense that they,

2:16:18they corrected it. And you complained about it.

2:16:21Well, no, I think that, you know, they had brought up doing like keywords and

2:16:24stuff like that. Cause I did, there was some emails about, I remember trying to

2:16:29fix it. I'm amazed that it looks like it did.

2:16:32Well, I don't want that smoke, you know, they don't, maybe it's, you know, it

2:16:36just kind of, they just need to be, yeah, shine light on it.

2:16:39It's the best disinfection sunlight.

2:16:41I, I just don't like the idea of curated search engines.

2:16:45It's really spooky. It's, it's no different to me than curating information on social media

2:16:50platforms based on whatever your ideology is.

2:16:52Like, I don't think you should be able to do that in terms of like,

2:16:55I don't think the company should be able to tell you, you can't see certain

2:16:58things. And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic.

2:17:02All the things that turned out to be true could have got you banned from

2:17:05YouTube. The lab leak theory kicked, kicked off.

2:17:08You know, the, the fact that the vaccines, even if you get vaccinated, you're still,

2:17:13you still can catch. COVID.

2:17:14Remember that was a breakthrough infection?

2:17:16It was extremely rare, extremely rare breakthrough infection.

2:17:21Never heard of it. And now it's everybody, literally everybody.

2:17:25And then it became this weird fucking, everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they

2:17:29started repeating, oh, but it stops hospitalization and death.

2:17:34And like, what are you talking about?

2:17:36You never said that before.

2:17:37You are saying that they were saying it stops hospitalization and death.

2:17:41And you don't even have anything to gain here.

2:17:43You just don't want to be wrong about your decision to get injected and to

2:17:47promote it, which is nuts.

2:17:49It's like people are doing the man's work for the man.

2:17:52They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army and shaming all the people that

2:17:57didn't go along with it and never apologizing.

2:18:01No one wants to apologize for calling people plague rats and telling people that they

2:18:06should have their children taken away from them.

2:18:08Nutty, weird, dystopian shit. They don't realize that they are the, they are creating more

2:18:15vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct than anything that you and I could do

2:18:19on this podcast at all.

2:18:21Cause you know, and like they say, you know, the CDC webpage on vaccines and

2:18:26autism has now been updated.

2:18:27And it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the

2:18:32first six months of life do not cause autism.

2:18:34It now says that, and that we have missed that the CDC has misled the

2:18:37public on that score. And people trashed the mainstream media trash Bobby for that.

2:18:45While instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency, honestly, people

2:18:51are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologized,

2:18:57when they're willing to admit mistakes.

2:18:58They don't, they're not there yet though, unfortunately.

2:19:01No, because it's, it's still a part of their political ideology.

2:19:04It's a part of their clan and they, they don't even think about it.

2:19:08They don't look into it.

2:19:09They don't read any studies.

2:19:11They don't read any synopsis of any studies.

2:19:13They just go full bore ahead.

2:19:15It's been thoroughly debunked and they'll argue with you.

2:19:18It's been thoroughly debunked. This is all nonsense.

2:19:21You read depositions I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious disease experts, and immunologists, where I

2:19:26will say something about this.

2:19:29You know, these studies show that, for example, the studies show that children that have

2:19:33had cancer and measles have a lower rate of cancers and they'll go out.

2:19:36That's that, that's just nonsense.

2:19:37Those studies are just junk.

2:19:38I'll say, have you read the studies?

2:19:42Uh, no, no. Have you seen them?

2:19:44No, but see, but they knew already.

2:19:47You know, they've already reached that a priori conclusion.

2:19:50I remember my deposition, not to go back to autism of Dr.

2:19:54Edwards, where I said to her, um, you have any studies that show that hep

2:19:57B vaccine does not cause autism?

2:19:58She said, no. I said, but there is a study that shows three times rate

2:20:03of autism amongst kids that didn't get hep B vaccine.

2:20:06And she says, well, I don't think that's, that's not a good study.

2:20:08I said, what study is that?

2:20:10She goes, well, why don't you show me the study?

2:20:14And then, cause she hadn't read it.

2:20:16She doesn't know. Why don't you show me the study?

2:20:20That's that because it doesn't fit within the, the, you know, the belief system, unfortunately,

2:20:27when it comes to this.

2:20:28And it's so easy. Cause like you said, all you got to do is just

2:20:31say, eh, they're just an anti -vaxxer and you die.

2:20:34Exactly. Exactly. And it's all when, when the entire, when you have a company, like

2:20:38whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever, and that company operates

2:20:43on an ideology that's not grounded in reality.

2:20:45And then they enforce it across their platform.

2:20:48It gets, it's, it's very frustrating and really nutty to watch and just thank God

2:20:53there exists some alternatives. Like you would need a, you need a crazy person worth

2:20:59a ton of money, like Elon to just go and buy it.

2:21:02And then also show, Hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.

2:21:07In the same way that what, what Elon did for social media, if he could

2:21:12do that for a search, that'd be great.

2:21:14But I think search is dying.

2:21:16I don't think AI is going to take over.

2:21:19I don't see, I hardly ever search things anymore.

2:21:22Everybody goes to AI these days from what I could see.

2:21:23Cause I can ask a question, like, how did this come about?

2:21:26I could, I could ask follow -ups.

2:21:28Are there any dissenting opinions?

2:21:29I love doing that. It's good, but it also requires less thinking.

2:21:32So it's bad in that regard, but yes.

2:21:34Well, it depends on how you're using it.

2:21:36When I'm using it is usually when I'm writing, I'm writing about a certain subject.

2:21:39I'm like, well, who, who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids?

2:21:43You know, I'll, I'll get into something like that.

2:21:44Like, what were they looking for?

2:21:45Like, you know what I mean?

2:21:46And like, you could, it's almost like you're talking to an expert.

2:21:49So instead of it being like something that I use to think for me, it's

2:21:53like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of.

2:21:57You could find so much about things so quickly as opposed to having to go

2:22:01through article after article after article.

2:22:03And like, and that's the one I'm looking for.

2:22:05What did court, how did he trick those people and give them up their land?

2:22:08There's only fucking 600 of them.

2:22:10How'd they do that? You know, like you need to, like AI is fantastic for

2:22:14that kind of shit. But if you're using it all day, like a lot of

2:22:17kids in my school, um, my kids' schools are getting busted for writing papers that

2:22:23are a hundred percent AI.

2:22:25Like they were a moron.

2:22:297th grade. It's like PhD genius level paper.

2:22:32Uh, yeah. And it's 12 year olds are fucking wizards.

2:22:37Yeah. It's hilarious. It's, it's not good.

2:22:39I mean, you saw those, you saw those studies that came out.

2:22:42I don't, I, again, not my area, but, and I don't know, I've only read

2:22:45the abstracts. I don't, I don't know, but that, that the more that technology has

2:22:49been adopted into classrooms, it appears that the more detrimental it has been and actually

2:22:54the, the, the markers of what you would consider an educated or education or intelligence.

2:22:59A hundred percent. It's a distraction.

2:23:01It's like, it's, there's no way it could be good.

2:23:03You're, you're on TikTok all day.

2:23:05But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic,

2:23:08but you probably should do it for all topics is never just rely on the

2:23:11output. You got to ask if you show me the primary source and look at

2:23:15it yourself. It's so critical in every area.

2:23:17Especially if it's something controversial.

2:23:19I mean, generally I'm asking questions about something I'm looking up.

2:23:22That's not that controversial in terms of like whether or not it's argued.

2:23:25You ever look up yourself?

2:23:26No. No, I'm not. Jesus Christ.

2:23:28I don't look at myself ever because I don't want to know.

2:23:31I don't want to know people's opinions.

2:23:33I don't want to know what it thinks of me.

2:23:34I couldn't care less. I think it's much better to just keep on going.

2:23:39If you're in a public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion.

2:23:44And there's certain opinions that are just, they're not people that you would ever want

2:23:49to talk to. And those kind of people exist.

2:23:53There's going to be shitty people out there.

2:23:55And their opinion written down looks just like your opinion.

2:23:58Better to not have any of it.

2:24:00Better to not watch any videos.

2:24:03Better to not listen to anything.

2:24:04Just be a good internal judge.

2:24:08Be objective about your own self and be self -critical to the point where it's

2:24:13healthy and leave it alone.

2:24:15I was watching, like I was talking to this the other day, I was watching

2:24:17this lady who was this very boring, not very exciting lady talking about how bad

2:24:22the Beatles were. And I was like, you should shut the fuck up.

2:24:27The Beatles are incredible. You're just a moron.

2:24:30You're just a dull -brained fucking dork just wandering through life.

2:24:35But you're allowed to. You're allowed to have those opinions.

2:24:37It's like good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're

2:24:40allowed to try. But I don't want to be a part of it.

2:24:43I don't want to be washing, swimming through bullshit opinions all day long.

2:24:49I don't think facing the opinions and the views, substantive opinions, views of those that

2:24:57don't agree with you is an important exercise in life and in any, in every

2:25:01area, frankly. I mean, I'm, you know, when it comes to the work that I

2:25:05do, you know, I welcome having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine

2:25:11experts. I mean, I'm - Well, this is, we're talking about a very different kind

2:25:14of thing than looking at yourself.

2:25:15Yeah, you're looking up hard line data.

2:25:17And it's very important what you do because it's crazy to say that being honest

2:25:23in this regard is courageous, but it is courageous because I've seen you attacked.

2:25:28I've seen crazy shit that people said about you.

2:25:32And it's like, good Lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying?

2:25:36Or like, or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam

2:25:42that's been hired to push a narrative?

2:25:44I don't know. But there's, there's a reality to data that's undeniable that needs to

2:25:53be promoted. And I think that's what you're doing.

2:25:55There's a reality to the data.

2:25:56You really, I don't imagine a whole lot of people are lining up to debate

2:26:02you about this. Oh, well, Paul Offord and I had an exchange on the internet.

2:26:07First we had it on Twitter.

2:26:09In Twitter? No, he won't do it.

2:26:10So we had it on Twitter.

2:26:11Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

2:26:12And then he moved it onto Substack and it's all there.

2:26:14It's a great exchange. And I've offered him and not just to be clear, not

2:26:19like a gotcha debate. I've offered him to have a debate where we each get

2:26:2410 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get to present the evidence.

2:26:29So we have a screen.

2:26:30We can put up our evidence and we can go back and forth with equal

2:26:34amount of time. So nobody's talking over each other.

2:26:37It's civil and it's based on the substance.

2:26:39I've offered him to do that.

2:26:40But the truth is, I don't need to debate him.

2:26:42I've already debated the world's reading vaccinologist, Dr.

2:26:45Stanley Plotkin, in a nine hour deposition.

2:26:47People talk about, you want, we should have a vaccine debate.

2:26:51Well, I've done that. It's nine hours.

2:26:53It's all on internet and you can watch it.

2:26:55And when my client put it out there and it ended up on YouTube, this

2:26:59was many years ago, it had like millions of views at one point.

2:27:02And then YouTube took it off and then people keep putting it back on.

2:27:06And it's just a deposition.

2:27:07It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth.

2:27:10Why are they taking YouTube?

2:27:11Leave it up. Stop. Well, I don't know if they're still taking it down right

2:27:14now. I hope now the climate's changed enough.

2:27:17It used to take it down and down.

2:27:19And I've done Senate hearings.

2:27:22But those vaccinologists, they don't want to show up anymore.

2:27:24I offered Peter Hotez that opportunity on the podcast.

2:27:27And I told him I would donate $100 ,000 to whatever charity of his choice.

2:27:31And he mocked that number as being insignificant.

2:27:34I'm like, well, tell me what the fucking number is.

2:27:36Just come on. And I was going to have him and RFK Jr.

2:27:40because he was talking about me having RFK Jr.

2:27:42on. They're saying a bunch of lies.

2:27:43I'm like, well, instead of saying that, and I think he, God, I forget what

2:27:48term he used for me.

2:27:50I'm like, Peter, you've been on my podcast twice.

2:27:51So what the fuck are you talking about?

2:27:53Like, why are you behaving like this?

2:27:55This is crazy. What did he call me?

2:27:58Like, it was something about some alt -right adjacent or neo -fascist adjacent podcast.

2:28:10The point is he was ad hominem instead of substance.

2:28:12You gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world.

2:28:15He is the vaccinologist. Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself.

2:28:21Like, debate him. What's the big deal?

2:28:23I only did this after he did that.

2:28:27He said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast.

2:28:31And it was one of the rare times that I ever go after anyone on

2:28:36Twitter. But I remember a whole bunch of people added in.

2:28:42Like, they were willing to add, I thought it was over, I forgot the number.

2:28:45It was in like a million, two million?

2:28:46It was in the millions.

2:28:47Willing to, and he still would not sit down and do it.

2:28:49And the argument that you'll often hear is they'll say, well, I'm not good at

2:28:53debating. It's, you know, he's a lawyer.

2:28:55He'll use lawyer tricks. Peter Hotez is a lawyer?

2:28:59No, no, no, no. Oh, he's a lawyer.

2:29:00Bobby's a lawyer. Or they'll say that he's a lawyer or I'm a lawyer, you

2:29:04know, and what they don't, but, but, you know.

2:29:08Data wins. Exactly. And I would let that data win.

2:29:11The substance should win. I want you, if you're right, I want to know.

2:29:15Like, I don't fucking know.

2:29:16You tell me. I'm willing to debate Peter Hotez here any day.

2:29:19I don't think he's going to do it.

2:29:20I'll pull off it. Any of them.

2:29:22They can all, in fact, Stanley Plotkin just wrote me a letter after all these

2:29:26years, after I deposed him, first time ever, wrote me a letter.

2:29:28Really? What'd he say? He said, I heard you wrote a book.

2:29:31I heard you wrote a book.

2:29:32And your deposition went very, very long.

2:29:36And I wasn't prepared enough.

2:29:37He's a world's leading vaccinologist.

2:29:39And I will be credited with saving millions.

2:29:42And you. will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children.

2:29:47That's what he wrote me a letter.

2:29:49And I wrote him back a response.

2:29:52And I said, look, I said, Dr.

2:29:54Plotkin, I said, thank you for your letter.

2:29:56I appreciate that you're writing me finally.

2:29:58Because I've reached out to him before, one time at least.

2:30:01And I said, look, I said, I think we can agree on one thing.

2:30:06We want to save as many children as possible.

2:30:09I want to save children from infectious disease.

2:30:11That's important. I agree. But I also want to save children from the harm from

2:30:16these products. They matter too.

2:30:19They're not just, there shouldn't be accepted casualties.

2:30:22The tens of thousands of families have contacted my law firm, devastating harm from these

2:30:28products. They matter too. And I said, let's work together.

2:30:32Let's work constructively. I said, because look, at the end of the day, if you

2:30:36don't address this, if you don't address this issue, I said, history is not going

2:30:41to remember you for the good.

2:30:43History is going to remember you for all the harm you caused it.

2:30:46Because when people look back in history at products that caused devastating harm, which vaccines

2:30:51can do, they don't remember the good those products did.

2:30:54They remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked.

2:30:57And those were just cast aside.

2:30:59I said, that will be your legacy.

2:31:01I said, but there's time to correct.

2:31:02He hasn't written me back.

2:31:03Of course he hasn't written you back.

2:31:04I posted both letters on my sub stack and I tweeted them out.

2:31:07So this way, I figured they could do some good that way.

2:31:09So they're available to everybody to read.

2:31:10Well, I think it's a very unique time that this message can get out there.

2:31:19Because what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like

2:31:26that, they opened up the door to a bunch of people that really don't give

2:31:32a shit about you. They just want to make as much money as possible.

2:31:35There's the scientists. That's what I would describe like these companies.

2:31:38You've got the people that are making these drugs.

2:31:41You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists.

2:31:44And then you get the fucking money people.

2:31:45And the money people don't give a shit.

2:31:47They just want to make more money.

2:31:49And they're both together. So you have this weird contradictory world where you have like

2:31:54some amazing pharmaceutical drugs that helped so many people and kept people alive and cured

2:31:59diseases. And then you got the money people who want everybody to get shot up

2:32:04because it's going to make them more money.

2:32:06And those two working together is a very bad mixture, especially when you have mandates.

2:32:13Then you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject

2:32:17your children with this thing that's going to make them money.

2:32:20And they have zero liability.

2:32:21Like how could that possibly go well?

2:32:25Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that?

2:32:29I don't know. That's crazy.

2:32:31You know, I had a business idea for you.

2:32:32Okay. You want to hear it?

2:32:33Sure. It's a great business idea.

2:32:35Hey, listen, we're going to sell this product.

2:32:36Okay. We're going to meet.

2:32:37Okay. Let's go. Okay. We can inject it into people.

2:32:40Are you worried it's going to hurt people?

2:32:41Well, I'm a little worried until I want to hear your story first.

2:32:44Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry.

2:32:46Don't worry about it because governments can give us immunity liability no matter how many

2:32:49people we hurt or kill.

2:32:50Okay. Oh, how'd you work that out?

2:32:52Yeah. I know. Now, now the weird part is you might be saying to me,

2:32:55you say, Aaron, Aaron, wait a second.

2:32:57But, but who the hell's going to take that?

2:32:59And I'll say, Joe, don't worry.

2:33:01The government's going to mandate it too.

2:33:03And you might say, okay, but what if people rise up?

2:33:06And I'll say, Joe, don't worry.

2:33:09They're going to spend billions convincing the public.

2:33:12It's the best thing since sliced bread.

2:33:15And then you're going to say, but, but what if people still don't want to

2:33:18pay for it? And I'll say, don't worry.

2:33:20The government through a program, literally pays for half of all vaccine, guarantees payment to

2:33:25the pharma companies, even if people cannot pay.

2:33:29So. Sounds like a good investment.

2:33:30No, no, no liability, guaranteed market, free promotion, guaranteed payment.

2:33:36It's the most, if, if it wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane.

2:33:41It is insane. And that is the business model of vaccines.

2:33:44That literally is what I just said.

2:33:45Think it's just, so you're right.

2:33:47It's perverse. But this thing that you're just saying before about like the money men

2:33:52who want to just make money, like, look, we live in a capitalist system where

2:33:57we have tapped into that, um, that self -interest, but we try to harness it

2:34:06for good. So every company has that to some degree, you know, people have that

2:34:10to some degree, but the idea with capitalism is, yeah, but you, you got to

2:34:14channel that and you got to do good.

2:34:16You got to do a good product.

2:34:17You got to do a good service.

2:34:17You got to do something positive.

2:34:19And if you, and if you don't, you'll be held accountable.

2:34:22So it's, it's, it's got guard, it's got guardrails.

2:34:25Yes. So, you know, it's, it's, you know, cause I, you know, people are like,

2:34:29well, what are you saying?

2:34:30Like people are sitting there in a farm company with horns and evil.

2:34:32No, they're just, but they're just, they don't have guardrails and they've, and they've gone

2:34:36totally, you know, they've gone totally off the rail.

2:34:40Do you like my business idea?

2:34:41It's a great idea. I'm going to talk to my lawyer first cause I don't

2:34:44want to go to jail.

2:34:46Oh, you're right. I'm thinking of saying society, I get locked up for the rest

2:34:50of my life, especially if he killed a bunch of people.

2:34:53And which is really crazy that none of these people do wind up going to

2:34:55jail. They pay giant criminal fines and then they slip away.

2:34:59I mean, look at the Sackler family.

2:35:00They, they haven't been jailed, right?

2:35:03Wasn't there like they were going to get immunity in favor of like $6 billion

2:35:08or something crazy. But then a judge kind of put the kibosh on that after

2:35:11painkiller, the Netflix docudrama came out.

2:35:15Yeah. And, and then, and critically too, I would say it's like, remember during the

2:35:20bank crisis, there were the banks that were too big to fail.

2:35:23So they want to touch those.

2:35:24The Sackler family, to me, it's like the smaller bank that they could, there was,

2:35:30I mean, it was bad, but they could sacrifice them.

2:35:33They could sacrifice that pharma company.

2:35:35Are they going to sacrifice Merck, Sanofi, Pfizer, GSK?

2:35:39Any of those guys? Are they going to sack?

2:35:41Are they really going to sacrifice them at the end of the day, no matter

2:35:44how much harm they do?

2:35:46I don't know. It's hard to see it.

2:35:49Well, listen, um, I'm glad you're out there.

2:35:51Uh, and I'm glad you can articulate these points so clearly and passionately because.

2:35:57People need to hear it.

2:35:58They need to know what the actual data is, what the actual story is about

2:36:02all of it. And it's better for all of us.

2:36:05And as hard as it is, a pill to swallow, people need to get that

2:36:08glass of water and start swallowing.

2:36:11So thank you very much.

2:36:12Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed it.

2:36:14And tell everybody your book.

2:36:15Did you do an audio version of it?

2:36:17I did. Did you read it?

2:36:18I did. Oh, how much work was it?

2:36:21Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

2:36:23That was a lot. I didn't.

2:36:25I didn't. I thought I could read, by the way.

2:36:28I was like, yeah, it's reading.

2:36:30And then I realized when I had to read the book, it was like I

2:36:32couldn't read anymore. Oh, that's hilarious.

2:36:34Oh, my gosh. Did you ever have to read an audio book?

2:36:36No, but I do ads for the podcast, and Jamie will tell you.

2:36:39I'm always like, fuck. I'm always fucking up sentences.

2:36:42Then you've got to redo them.

2:36:43It's brutal. Yeah. Just talking is fine.

2:36:47Right. But when you have to read out loud, your tongue gets all tripped up.

2:36:51I'm like, I go to federal court.

2:36:52I can argue. I can go to Senate hearings.

2:36:54I'm like, tell him the audio guy, because we're in the studio alone.

2:36:57I'm like, I really am.

2:36:59I think I'm – it might seem like a total moron.

2:37:03But I probably am a moron, but I'm just a little bit – I don't

2:37:07know. I felt like such a moron.

2:37:09Yeah, I have friends that have read their own books and they feel the exact

2:37:12same way. It was so painful.

2:37:13Oh, my goodness. But I did it.

2:37:16It's done. It's out there on Audible and the books on Amazon.

2:37:20Excellent. All right. Aaron, thank you very much.

2:37:23Thank you very much. It was an honor and a pleasure having me in here.

2:37:25I really appreciate it. Thank you.

2:37:26Thank you. Thank you, Tony.

2:37:28Goodbye, everybody. We'll be right back.

#2462 - Aaron Siri